Talk:Colossae

Until someone can explain

…where the precise coordinates for this ancient city came from, they constitute the of an editor, and so are placed here. From where is this precise statement of the location of an unexcavated set of ancient ruins derived, and how does out relate to the ambiguity of location expressed in the lede?

• [double curly brackets] coord|37|47|16.18|N|29|15|41.55|E|display=title|format = dms [double curly brackets]

Le Prof 50.179.252.14 (talk) 15:16, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Text regarding Chonae moved here

The following paragraph-as-section is, given the length of article, overly long for the article, as previously noted. It also regards a proposed miraculous event (noteworthy if only for the history of its belief), but one which took place at Chonae (which, per the lead, is arguably not the same place as the title location). Now, I provide a recent scholarly reference making exhaustively clear that the consensus is that the two, Colossae and Chonae are distinct places; as the sources arguing the equivalence date to 1908 and 1854, we can conclude that the datedness of the earlier sources misstates current scholarship, and that miracle section regarding Chonae is misplaced in an article about ancient Colossae (happening at a geographically distinct place, and only after Colossae had been destroyed). Hence, the miracle story regarding Chonae should not remain in the Colossae article, as its doing so introduces confusion and distracts from the actual significant theological and historical relevance of the actual article subject.

Here is the source, indicating the two places are not the same:

• Cadwallader, Alan H. & Trainor, Michael (2011). "Colossae in Space and Time: Overcoming Dislocation, Dismemberment and Anachronicity". Colossae in Space and Time: Linking to an Ancient City. Novum Testamentum et Orbis Antiquus/Studien zur Umwelt des Neuen Testaments (NTOA/StUNT), Vol. 94. Göttingen, GER: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 9–47. ISBN 3647533971. Retrieved 17 February 2016. Colossae's various positions on early maps confirmed the confusion over identity. Cartographers positioned Colossae to the west (rather than south-east) of Laodicea⁷ or, as "Conos", between Laodicea to the north-west and Hieropolis to the north-east.⁸ … "Chonos" or some other guesttimation of the spelling of Honaz¹² sometimes subsumed Colossae. … The inhabitants of the immediate vicinity of the ancient site [Colossae, which had ceased to exist] were shackled in bureaucratic tabulation for tax purposes to the town of Honaz. … When Frances Arundell's sketch of Honaz appeared in 1834, the town had descended from the mountain heights [it was a mountain fortress, Honazdağ] but it was similarly labelled, albeit after the fashion of Nicetas Choniates: "Chonas, … anciently Colossae".⁹⁸ … The question was whether Honaz and Colossae were to be equated or separated and whether the contemporary Honaz was the means to pinpoint the ancient… site. … William Hamilton became the one credited with the separation of Colossae from Chonai with the former's location at the mound three kilometers to the north of Honaz.¹⁰⁸ … Two photographs of the "Ruines de Colossae" and "Chonas" by Henri Carmignac published toward the endif the nineteenth century finally eliminated the concordant visualisation of the places that had been the legacy of Arundell (Fig. 11).¹¹³ [Cadwaller & Trainor 2011, pp. 11-37 passim.] {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

And here is the text that was in the article, which is now placed here until we can discuss and figure out where it should actually go.

SECTION=Miracle of the Archangel Michael=SECTION

Miracle of the Archangel Michael at Colossae (Chonae).
(Menologion of Basil II, 10th or 11th century)

In Byzantine and Russian art, the theme of the Miracle of the Archangel Michael at Chonae (Τὸ ἐν Χωναῖς/Χῶναις Θαῦμα τοῦ Ἀρχαγγέλου Μιχαήλ) is intimately linked with the site. Eastern Orthodox tradition tells that the pagans directed the stream of a river against the sanctuary of St. Michael there to destroy it, but Michael the Archangel appeared and split the rock by lightning to give a new bed to the stream, diverting the flow away from the church and sanctifying forever the waters which came from the gorge. The Orthodox celebrate a feast in commemoration of this event on 6 September. The Monastery of the Miracle (Chudov Monastery) in the Moscow Kremlin, where the Russian Tsars were baptized, was dedicated to the Feast of the Miracle at Kona.

The 5th- to 7th-century texts that refer to the miracle at Chonae formed the basis of specific paradigms for "properly approaching" angelic intermediaries for more effective prayers within the Christian culture.

Unless better scholarship is identified and reported here (e.g., that does not date to 100 years, as did the sources equating the two cities, earlier, in the lede), then the next stop seems to be, what part of this miracle story can we keep, and which other article does it actually belong.

Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Further text and elements to discuss

…in the context of the citation appearing above, and in the article, differentiating Colossae from Chonae, geographically and historically:

The Miracle of St. Michael at Chonae, a 15th-century Russian icon.

The first recorded bishop of Chonae was Cosmas, who signed the acts of the Trullan Council of 692 as bishop of "Colossae or Chonae". A successor of his, named Theodosius or Dositheus, was mentioned as participating in the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 as bishop of "Chonae or Colossae". In about 858-860 the bishopric was elevated to the rank of autocephalous archdiocese and later to that of metropolitan see, but without suffragans. It is not mentioned in documents later than the end of the 14th century. No longer a residential bishopric, Colossae is today listed by the Catholic Church as a titular see. The town was the birthplace of the Byzantine Greek writers Nicetas and Michael Choniates. In 1206–1230, it was ruled by Manuel Maurozomes.

The following outside links are likewise placed here for discussion:

• Commemoration of the Miracle of the Archangel Michael at Colossae Eastern Orthodox icon and synaxarion
• Commemoration of the Miracles of the Holy Archangel Michael Entry for September 6 in the Prologue from Ochrid by St. Nikolai Velimirovich

Also, the following categories need to be considered as most likely best in a separate article.

• Category:Angelic apparitions
• Category:Michael (archangel)

With regard, Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 07:26, 18 February 2016 (UTC)