Talk:Coco (folklore)

Se llama el coco con~o this is soo wrong u have no idea just cut the crap

Eso depende del lugar. Por ejemplo, aquí en Puerto Rico le llamamos el cuco. Y por casualidad: ñ = alt + 164 ~Alguien

Coco- Del port. côco, fantasma que lleva una calabaza vacía, a modo de cabeza. m. Fantasma que se figura para meter miedo a los niños.(Diccionario de la Real Academia Española).

Physical description

There have been some vague descriptions of the cuco. He sometimes depicted as an eerie cloked figure, as seen in a painting by Francisco de Goya.Where I am from, He is described as a shadowy human figure with glistening sharp teeth and a piercing stare. The latter description is most likely a racist caricture of WHITES, much like the Filipino capre

Origin of the word

What if the word is of south american, pre-columbian origin? Once I read about the quechua myth of the 'ukuku', a word related to the Uku Pacha or underworld. The creature is still used today to scare children in andean villages. It's also another term for 'bear' in quechua (the other term being ukumari). And according to certain investigations, bears in andean pottery are scarce (even when bears were common and still exist today in Peru) because they were believed to be related to the Uku Pacha. I'll investgate more on this (Because we'll need proof on this), but who knows? Stories from the ukuku and the cuco are too similar, and the myth could have come from there, heard by spanish conquistadores during the conquest or during the colony, and carried to all their other colonies and to their own country.

The "coco" is of pré-roman origin, probably celtiberian. In northen Portugal and Galicia the "coco" is represented by a carved pumpkin lantern just like the jack'o lantern and by a dragon.

(In quechua, u and o vowels sound the same, so their 'u' can be heard as 'o' to us sometimes. If 'cuco' or 'coco' came from 'ukuku', its quechua origin would explain the variants in its name from place to place) -- Taikobo

The word (coco/cuca/cuco/cucu/cucuy) most likely came from Europe, likely pre-latin in origin, which refers to the word "cucurbita" (although Latin, its origins prior to that are debated), which means gourd, squash, or melon (where the words "cucumber" and "zucchini" come from; see also Italian "cocoziello" or "zucca", all with the same origins), or other related false-berry fruits growing from vines (e.g. any orb-like protrusion causing general curiosity, marvel, or awe. If not "celt-iberian", as one user above suggests, the word itself may have deeper Middle-Eastern or African origins.

Proposed etym. for cucurbitus: L. cucu(s)=?(from Gr. κόκκος=kernel, seed, grain, berry)? + orb(is)=sphere, globe round, circle + it(us)=a going (genative, fourth declension).

The tradition of the jack'o lantern is independent of the word's actual origin.

Analogues or homonyms in Native American or African (Bantu: "Kuku") languages may have become convergent co-incidences (or false cognates), which may have only helped to spread the myth of the "Coco" even more easily. As it stands, the mythological meaning of the word is influenced directly by the Iberian peninsula's Romantic languages and traditions. The same reference states that, as with many words of debated etymological origin, it may be onomatopoeic or based on babbling sounds of babies during language acquisition.

Another proposed onomatopoeic origin of El Coco (and this is an oral "folk etymology" sometimes used in Mexico), refers to the knocking, or rapping sound El Coco makes on the floor or under a bed or table in the darkness of a room. Another oral folk etymology also takes into account the etymological origin of the word, which refers to the cool, dark environment of a patch of squash vines (or other tight growth of vegetation) at nighttime, and the fruits' sinister, head-like appearance [see above reference].

Some rf.: Corominas, Joan y José A. Pascual (1980): Diccionario Crítico Etimológico Castellano e Hispánico, Madrid: Gredos, s.v. coco.--Nimbvs (talk)

Should Cucuy and Jack-o-Lantern have cross references? I was thinking of saying that the pumpkin head exists in both Spanish/Portuguese speaking and English Speaking cultures. -- Azemocram (talk) 01:52, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Boogey man

Cuco is the same as boogey man in english —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wesborland (talk • contribs) 6:40 pm, 1 February 2007, Thursday (5 years, 10 months, 26 days ago) (UTC−7). Cuco means BogeyMan, who looks for disobedient children.

Cuco is a slang for female underwear (and "cuca" is what is underneath the "cuco.") The correct name of the fantastic character is "coco". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.198 (talk) 21:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

reversions

CalumH93 your reversion does not have any explanation. The information added has sources and if you read all the other sources added it goes in accordance with what was written. If you have any other oppinion or knowledge please add to this page otherwise you make those reversions a lost of time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.30.234 (talk) 15:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Title change

Could someone change the title to Coco. I only ask this because there is already a tradition around the cuco (Cuckoo), festa do cuco-mor [1], and two traditions with the same name from the same region gets confusing46.50.1.28 (talk) 13:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, the text of the article, including the lead sentence, seems to suggest that "Coco" is the default spelling.PurpleChez (talk) 17:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Unexplained reversion of numerous copyedits

IP user 89.214.88.248 has reverted to an older version of the article with the edit summary "Reverting , makes no sensense, discuss on the web page if you do not agree". I am not sure which aspects of the article the IP user is referring to, but the largest effect of the reversion has been to restore a whole host of grammatical errors, bad English, and bad text formatting by undoing a large number of basic copyedits that had been made. Personally I have no problem with incorporating whatever specific content changes the IP user thinks need to be made, but I think the article's improved legibility and corrected formatting ought to be preserved. The IP user is invited to clarify exactly which parts made "no sense". Meanwhile, I plan to restore the basic copyedits that had been made while trying to respect and maintain the content added / re-added by the IP user. AtticusX (talk) 21:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Atticus. I don't mind if you correct grammar errors, but you also erased information and it made no sense. First because there is a big amount of symbology around this being and if one does not know it not everything will be understood. Second you erased information like for example the information about the god Crouga, *krowkā in Indogermanica et Caucasica is translated as "sanctuary", in e-keltoi is translated as "rock",[2] but it also means "head" List of Galician words of Celtic origin, so there is a reason why it is there. Also the ancient Portuguese metaphor that you erased :'to give someone coca' , (this is a very old metaphor) implies magic and sorcery, and it is well translated. The coco is masculin ( the ending "o" is masculin), the Coca is feminin ( the ending "a" is feminin) In Indogermanica et Caucasica there is probably a feminin and a masculin theonym [3] pg 324 Crougia is said to be the masculin form. Also notice something that is not in this wikipedia yet, the children in Portugal take a pumpkin lantern (coca/coco) when they go asking for Pão-por-Deus and this tradition is connected with a ancient death cult. The "pão por deus" is to be shared with the dead, the big bonfires lit at night with the wood of the souls (lenha das almas) is for the dead and the MAGusto is also related with the death cult. There is also the epithet of "Crouceai Maga Reaicoi Petranioi" [4] whatever the translation that is given, there is nearby the hillfort of the Maga (Castro da Maga) and "maga" means sorcerer in Portuguese [5] pg 148 while Magna means "Great/Big". I can also tell you that it is very rare to find someone that knows portuguese mythic creatures from portuguese folclore even in Portugal (the well known spanish tradition of "el coco" is a tiny part of this myth). One more thing, I did not read everything you erased, probably there was more, but what I saw was enough to revert everything. I don't have much time to pin point every thing. So if you decide to erase information whatever it is you think is wrong, I don't think there is anyone who knows about the portuguese version of this myth left, exept the IP that has been writing it (when I said above it was very rare to find someone who knows this stuff, take it literally).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.88.248 (talk) 01:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Heads and Pumpkins

While "calabaza" is translated as "pumpkin," the type of pumpkin in the Jack-O-Lantern picture is not necessarily representative of the pumpkins in Iberia/Lusitania in pre-Roman times.

Old world pumpkins do not necessarily look like the North American Halloween type of pumpkin as the word is used for a larger variety of squash or gourds. Although, after the introduction of New World pumpkins most of the European varieties became hybridized.

Here are various types of "calabazas" - pumpkins:

http://cdn.slidesharecdn.com/ss_thumbnails/calabaza-091129070127-phpapp01-thumbnail-4.jpg?1284623727

http://www.slideshare.net/etnografiaverde/calabaza-8616940 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ileanadu (talk • contribs) 03:55, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

In Iberia/Lusitania in pre-Roman times they used real skulls not pumpkins. That came much later. Pans with holes were also used so it does not have to be a pumpkin, it can be any variety of Cucurbitaceae, as long as it looks like a head. I am not an expert on pumpkins but cabaça and abóbora in Portuguese are to diferent varieties and both can be used. You can see the tradition in Galicia in these pictures [6] and here [7].

Literature, Arts, Culture

Television- As soon as the verification is available on the official site, it should be added that El Cucuy was featured on the NBC TV show Grimm. Vixen525 (talk) 05:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Names and etymology

Hello 166.70.38.198 you wrote: " The sentences about Lusitanian deity "Crouga" and the Portuguese phrase "dar coca a alguém" don't claim any actual connection to the article's topic (the bogeyman called the Coco).)"

To claim anything in the article would be original work. The information can only be listed and backed up with references.

The connection is this:

• Coco and coca are the same thing
• Both mean head and skull
• There is also the variant spelling crouca that also means "head",from proto-Celtic *krowkā-
• The theonym Crouga derives from *krowkā
• In the inscription of Xinzo de Limia, Crouga is offered (given)
• "dar coca a alguém" means: to have one subdued and at the disposal - (it means to get hold of someone's spirit) [8] page 269

Hi, and thanks for your message regarding the two paragraphs I marked for potential irrelevance to the article topic.

I checked and none of the "Crouga" sources mention any connection to Coco/Coca (the word or the monster). Similarly, in the next paragraph mentioning other phrases and words that include the word "coca", the cited sources don't mention any relationship between those other uses of "coca" and the subject of this article, i.e. the myth of the bogeyman-monster known as the Coco/Coca. They're interesting facts, but they're off-topic in an Etymology section unless their connection to the evolution of the monster's name is made explicit in the article, and that connection would need to be supported by at least one external source to avoid the problems of WP:SYNTHESIS.

Wikipedia's WP:SYNTHESIS policy says, "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources."

It looks like Wikipedia probably shouldn't be including those two paragraphs in this article, especially in an Etymology section, unless we can find some published source outside of Wikipedia establishing an etymological relationship between the other subjects and the mythical ghost-monster called the Coco. I've tried Googling around but I couldn't find any such sources. Maybe you'll have better luck? 166.70.38.198 (talk) 22:50, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

You say that the arqueological sources about the goddess Crouga should mention a connection to Coco the boogeyman????? This is what is in the article->The theonym Crouga derives from *krowkā[16][17][18].crouca means "head",[8] from proto-Celtic *krowkā-,[9] with variant cróca;[10] and either coco or coca means "head.

When you say "other uses of coca " you are refering to the metaphor about Coca? What uses?????I could not understand.

"Do not comgbine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." Is there a conclusion? And what was the conclusion implied there??? I added more than 100 references to this article, it can be called multiple sources, but what is in the sources is what is stated. It is not about luck if you do not find what you want. And no, it does not need any more references. Unless you are doing some homework and you need more references. Strange how you are nit-picking about a very specific subject that already has references. Anyway, just because I do not have time, if you want to keep with the discussion I will ask for second opinions. Cheers46.189.134.151 (talk) 18:55, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi, sorry I wasn't clearer in my last post. My main point is really just that this article starts off saying it's about one thing (Coco the bogeyman) and then wanders off topic. Putting content in a Wikipedia article obviously implies it has a connection to the article topic. So if it doesn't relate to the article topic, it shouldn't be in the article. (And if it does relate, we need to make clear HOW it relates!)

The lead paragraph establishes what the rest of the article is supposed to be about. It currently says:

The Coco (or Cuco, Coca, Cuca, Cucuy) is a mythical ghost-monster, equivalent to the bogeyman, found in many Hispanic and Lusophone countries. He can also be considered a Hispanic version of a bugbear, as it is a commonly used figure of speech representing an irrational or exaggerated fear. The Coco is a male being while Coca is the female version of the mythical monster, although it is not possible to distinguish one from the other as both are the representation of the same being.

Reading through the rest of the article after your most recent edits, I've realized that the problem is far more widespread and that further down the page there are whole sections of the article that seem to have very little to do with the lead paragraph. They contain good, well-sourced material — I'm not saying we should throw them away! — but in order to preserve them it seems like we're going to have to split this article up into multiple articles. Again: not because of a lack of citations — there are plenty! — but because Wikipedia articles are only supposed to cover ONE topic each, broadly speaking. It's a basic quality issue that really does need to be addressed here, because this article currently covers way too many topics without establishing their connection to the central article topic (as established in the lead paragraph).

46.189.134.151, I completely understand your not having time to continue this discussion and appreciate your thoughts. I would welcome ideas and assistance from anyone else who is interested in making this sprawling article more coherent. I guess my initial thought is that we could split the article up into multiple articles: one for Coco (bogeyman), one for Coca (hooded cloak), one for Coco (lantern), etc. Or whatever titles make the most sense. Or if all these topics are really related somehow, we could rewrite the lead paragraph to say how they all connect as part of one broad topic. I'd be open to other solutions. Thoughts, anyone? 166.70.38.198 (talk) 20:53, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

"the problem is far more widespread"->Good to know there is a problem. "we're going to have to split this article up into multiple articles"-> Great, good luck to you. But then who will help you write the articles? Or would you leave them to stagnate? I have a better idea, give us a good contribution to the article in every chapter you want to split. You can do it, no? Write a few paragraphs with references in every chapter. Just show us what you know about this and how you are going to keep up with the many split articles. Then I may change my mind about you being a trasgo. Cheers 46.189.134.151 (talk) 22:59, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cuco (musician) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:33, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

I think this is super helpful, but I need more detail. I'm relying on this article, but it's just chopped up. I can't be the only one complaining. And a title change please. It's a little bit off when you have "Coco." That's a whole Disney movie! I mean, cmon. Then the "what he looks like." I understand he eats kids, but he has a pretty freaky appearance to most. (Not me, but my friends think so. They don't have an account, though, so I put this up for them.) Thank you for your time and consideration. We — Preceding unsigned comment added by CyraSky123 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)