Talk:Cifrão

Merger with Escudo

[Oppose.] I don't think this article should be merged with the one about the escudo, since the cifrão isn't just the symbol of that currency. Cifrão is usually part of the official abbreviation of Brazilian currencies as well. We abbreviate the real as R$, cruzeiro real was CR$, some versions of the cruzeiro didn't use the "CR" ligature but were written just Cr$ instead. (Whenever I write $, I mean the cifrão, not the dollar sign). Amorim Parga 189.33.13.5 23:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[Support.] But it's the same sign. You press the same key, the same thing appears on your screen: $. Just because people have associations with it does not make it a different sign. I still think it should be merged with the Dollar sign article. SergioGeorgini 23:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's not the same sign. Back when we used the cifrão, we'd use it for escudos and the dollar sign for dollars if we happened to mention both in the same text. The cifrão has always had two vertical strokes. The only reason why it is not a big deal (for us) that there isn't a cifrão sign available is that we switched to the euro.85.240.126.158 (talk) 15:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I support the merger with Escudo. Notice that the symbol for the real already shows up at Brazilian real, and see also the table at Currency sign. FilipeS (talk) 02:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[Oppose.] The cifrão isn't exclusive to the escudo, it makes no sens to merge them. 85.240.126.158 (talk) 15:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, for the reasons above. — LlywelynII 20:46, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

"Cifrano"??

Where did you got the "cifrano" from? Not from the Portuguese language, I'm sure - and doing a search yielded absolutely nothing, so I'm intrigued - it still must've come from somewhere, necessarily. 85.138.77.5 (talk) 04:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Something is wrong here. The recorded pronunciation does not match the spelling

and the written pronunciation guide, unless I am mistaken (which is very possible).--Filll (talk | wpc) 20:47, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

History of cifrão

This page (Portuguese: http://sellerink.com.br/blog/2010/09/30/tintas-e-impressos-de-seguranca-post-14/ ) has the official history I've always heard about the symbol (I usually heard this story when I was a kid, asking if it had one stroke (as a dollar sign) or two (as a cifrão) (since we always saw many version of both symbols, used interchangeably) and this was why I was always told the 'right' way of drawing this symbol was with two). But AFAIK, here in Brazil, the right version is officially with two strokes, but no one cares if you write a cifrão with just one stroke, they consider it stylistic stuff of the font. Just like whether the strokes crossed the entirety of the S or whether they were just above and under (dunno if you understand this last bit). Also, we just probably wouldn't translate "cifrão" to "dollar-sign" because that sounds too U.S.-centric, as lots of currencies are not called dollars. 189.123.168.199 (talk) 03:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

From the $ page,

origin - Tariq ibn Ziyad

At least in Brazil (where we use the two lines version of the sign), it is widely known/accepted that the origin of the symbol is from Tariq ibn Ziyad, and his conquest of Iberian Peninsula. He then ordered his servants to write a map on the coins, showing his path: curved like an S and through the Pillars of Hercules (that being the reason for two lines, not one). Here are some references (they were hard to find, since it's so widely known!):

http://noticias.terra.com.br/educacao/vocesabia/interna/0,,OI3326592-EI8402,00.html (in portuguese) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.123.163.166 (talk) 01:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S.: Forgot to say, even being being wide known, most people would know it as something like: "some thing about a map, with a curvy path and then somehing to do with Pillars of Hercules being the two lines" (few people would actually know on the fly the name of the guy or more details (I just googled for "cifrão colunas de hércules origem" to find the reference where I found the man's name)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.123.163.166 (talk) 01:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

@"lots of currencies are not called dollars" - well, the vast majority that use this sign are, and almost all the rest are "pesos," which use the dollar sign. (I.e., the sign based on the Spanish real de ocho: Spanish slang "peso" and English... "dollar") — LlywelynII 20:43, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The story as presented in the article is only one of many offered in the dollar sign/peso sign article, and is described as doubtful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.227.42 (talk) 06:32, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Mac OS X "support"

Can someone with a Mac check whether these fonts actually have two separate dollar signs? If the article is simply listing fonts which employ an old double-bar dollar sign, it has nothing to do with Mac support and the article should be edited to include a list of fonts common to Windows or Macs that can be used to display a cifrao. — LlywelynII 21:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Usage

The Portuguese article lists the cifrao as being employed by Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Guyana, Suriname, and Uruguay. Is this verifiable? — LlywelynII 21:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

"" redirects here

The emoticon is a picture of an iPhone. It has no need redirecting here. I shall fix this.

198.228.235.188 (talk) 18:49, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

New Picture

Currently, the header has a picture of a Portuguese coin. The cifrao symbol is not even clear. There are plenty pictures on wiki commons that are more accurate and representative of the topic of this wiki:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Dollar_sign

Personaly i think the, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cifr%C3%A3o_symbol.svg is most suitable. Agree? 90.193.233.49 (talk) 08:34, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

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Merge with dollar sign

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To merge given the overlap and context. Klbrain (talk) 14:36, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

---

One or two strokes, doesn’t matter: that’s just a typography style thing (just like "g" or "a" or "*" have variant letterforms). It’s the same symbol, used for several currency units around the world, present and past, some named dollar, others not. It just happens to have a special name in Portuguese language, but that should not concern the English language wikipedia. Tuvalkin (talk) 05:01, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

• Agreed. Articles in the English Wikipedia should be titled with the English language name of the concept. "Cifrão" is not the English language name of that symbol. In English, that symbol is called "dollar sign", even when it is used for other currencies. Just as in Portuguese that symbol is called cifrão even when used for the US dollar. --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 11:48, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
• merge. Not specifically Portuguese. - Nabla (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
• Agree to merge Common name in English is "dollar sign." --Ooligan (talk) 18:34, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - the article clearly explains in what way this sign is different from the dollar sign. It is not simply another name for exactly the same sign (in which case we would also need a separate 'peso sign' article, which I don't propose). Rather, it's a visually similar but different sign. The mere fact that English speakers might refer to it using terminology they are familiar with ("dollar sign") is not a compelling argument for a merger. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 16:24, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per TaalVerbeteraar. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 16:23, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
• Merge w/ section redirect - This is clearly a highly debated issue of the "toh-may-toh / toh-mah-toh" variety with no obvious resolution and little sources to back the arguments up. The vast majority of English-speaking cultures make no distinction between the single-barred and double-barred symbols, to such a point that Unicode refuses to recognize the distinction. Certain Spanish/Portuguese cultures do make a distinction and feel very strongly about it, but they do not agree, exactly, what the distinction is. I came upon this article from finding some files in Commons tagged with Category:Cifrão sign and I found myself asking what the bleep is that? What is funny is that while some claim that Cifrão is consistently a double bar, as opposed to a single bar, I find it quite amazing to make these finds in Commons ... note carefully the name of the file and the number of bars: File:Cifrao sign.svg File:Cifrão.png File:Brazilian cifrão2.png and File:Cifrão symbol.svg File:Brazilian cifrão0.png File:Brazilian cifrão1.png. So Commons gives us the score: three votes for "Cifrão" has one bar and three votes that it has two bars. Toh-may-toh. Toh-mah-toh. Let's call the whole thing off. To be fully honest, Commons does have some other dollar sign images in the category, but none of the files are named "Cifrão". In fact, there are two double barred images named "dollar".

Clearly this is a debate which is beyond Wikipedia. The proponents for two symbols haven't convinced Unicode yet ... and they are the folks who have encoded everything from ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics to an extensive library of emojis. If they haven't created a second code point, the issue will soon be rendered moot from the sheer inability to represent the difference in our digital age. Even if there was a second code point, it is clear that there is no agreement as to which symbol is the Cifrão and which isn't. The fact that there is a debate on the matter is worthy of mention. But under WP:NPOV, Wikipedia cannot take one position over the other. Keeping them as separate articles would effectively be taking one side in the argument. Clearly, the article Dollar sign has a much broader scope than this debate, but the debate does have a place within the article. With a little improvement, the Dollar sign article can be edited to contain the Cifrão debate in a single section, with a section redirect.

As for the Cifrão article, the largest section is "Encoding", which attempts to provide work-arounds to the Unicode problem, but concedes that there is no guarantee of results. The section "Other uses", which is the main argument for keeping the article, has a grand total of zero sources for its statements. Amazingly, the section concludes that making a distinction is no longer the current practice. And that is the argument for keep? Granted, the Dollar sign article is a little thin on sources on this debate, and can use improvement, but at least it has a non-zero number.

Given the evidence thus far, it seems best to merge these two with a section redirect. If and when Unicode reconsiders, and assigns a code point, and the default fonts have been updated to support that code point, then it may be time to fork them back into two articles. Until then, the debate best belongs as a section within the one article.

PoundTales (talk) 15:11, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree to merge for reasons laid out by @PoundTales Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 19:22, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Agree this is simply the double stroke version of the dollar sign. It may have different origins, but this can be explained in a section on the dollar sign page. The Talking Sock talk 21:49, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 14:36, 25 September 2022 (UTC)