Talk:Ciaphas Cain

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Redirect, 16 May 2023, see discussion.
no consensus, 27 September 2008 (UTC), see discussion.

Less re-telling, more facts?

Would it be a good idea to cut this article right down, regarding summarising the novels and the character's fictional history? And then expand some sections on literary criticism, sales of the books, comparison with other styles of Warhammer 40,000 novels and storylines? This is just my opinion, but I think Cain is just another fictional character and doesn't warrant so much detail about his stories - you can enjoy them by actually reading them. But, I think it is notable that the novels are written in a light hearted style, they contrast with the more grim and gothic stories that other authors write, and there might be something to say about how that has affected sales, the publisher or the play of the game. Of course, that's Original Research until someone can find a piece of writing that specifically says what I just said, but I think it would make this article a general article about the character Ciaphas Cain and his stories, rather than a detailed recap of the novels. (A bit like if all the James Bond articles were just about the plots of the books and movies, rather than what impact the character has had on modern culture, how the books were written, how the movies have changed over the years, who starred in them and all the other details.)Targetonmyback (talk) 00:08, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge?

well im in favour of it, i cannot see why she would merit a page of her own Lowris 15:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

~~I am against it, as it would clutter up this page. I would recommend creating a Ciaphas Cain (Series) article or similar and moving all lesser characters there, possibly including Ciaphas.~~ --Falcorian ^(talk) 15:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On second look, her article could be cut down alot more than it appeared, and should fit in the Associates section. --Falcorian ^(talk) 15:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse an ignorant newbie (to this article, at least) but who's page was merged? -- JediLofty ^{User | Talk} 10:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism

The Criticism section reads, to my mind, like one reader who didn't much care for the book(s). I would think that unless the view expressed is particularly widespread (which, from my experience, I don't think it is), this section should be removed, as the comments on writing style are already found elsewhere in the article. --Darth Fanboy 20:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. Clearly original research. Toss it. Cheers --Pak21 09:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With a lack of any further response on this, I'm removing the section.--Darth Fanboy 00:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

edit

There is a fourth short story, Echoes of the Tomb, which appeared in an early issue of Warhammer Monthly. It was reprinted in the Hero of the Imperium omnibus along with Fight or Flight and The Beguiling.

I'll let somebody with more experience edit that in with the appropriate footnotes. Lucion 07:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flashman

Intersting, but last I checked the only indications we accept here are ones that are verifiable facts, not original research. As far as I can tell, the references (10 and 11) for this relation are the Flashman novels and books of Fraser and I doubt Fraser said in a novel that Cain is based off of Flashman, and even if he did hes not the creator of Cain so his opinion on the subject doesn't matter. Unless 9, Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium, makes mention to Flashman having some relation to Cain, that is gonna get removed and stay removed. If it does, you who have read it might want to add in somewhere that Shandy said in it that there is a relation.

I've added a short bit about the link (you're right, the old bit was full of OR), and cited it. The author mentions the link in the introduction to Hero of the Imperium. JustIgnoreMe (talk) 19:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The similarities between the Cain series and the Flashman series are pretty obvious to anyone who's read both. Also, Gunner Jurgen is an obvious riff on Trooper McAuslan in George MacDonald Fraser's The Sheikh and the Dustbin. Wombat socho (talk) 17:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, Sandy Mitchell is a psuedonym for Alex Stewart. Says so at the back of all the Cain novels. ~~Will!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.26.244 (talk) 02:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Unlike Cain's own writing, Sulla's writings are lacking in any literary talent"

In whose opinion?

I've read one of the Ciaphas Cain novels (the one with the Orks and Necrons), and I think one of the other characters (probably Inquisitor Vail) may have described her writings as such. But that seemed to me as just a non-NPOV opinion expressed by the character in question.

If I remember correctly, Sulla's writing was quite "flowery", slightly archaic, and "epic"; full of passages about "our courageous troops winning a glorious victory over the xenos hordes" etc. Whether that sort of prose counts as "lacking in any literary talent" is really down to the personal likes/dislikes of the reader. Wardog (talk) 18:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amberley Vail frequently makes reference to Sulla's writings lacking literary talent throughout all the books (except for the one where the Valhallan's don't appear, obviously!) -- JediLofty ^{User ¦ Talk} 09:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree, but... they are both written by the same person. It takes significant literary ability to write badly, properly (anyone who's seen Les Dawson play the piano knows what I'm talking about). I think it might be better if the section was re-written in a non "in-universe" style. JustIgnoreMe (talk) 14:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Grifen and Magot

Where in the series is it actually revealed that Magot is a lesbian? Of course re-reading the novels just to find these bits of information is possible, but if they do not exist they will, of course, be impossible to find, and even if they do, it might be possible to read over them. I remember reading through and noticing Grifen and Magot seeming rather close, but I did not read it stated that either was definitively a lesbian, or even the Cain or Vail suspected such a relation. I am just curious to prove this, as the truth would either confirm or defy my interpretation of Magot's and Grifen's relationship with eachother, which I percieved as simply being very close, in tune with eachother, and regarding the charisma and tendancies that two troopers may reflect after fighting through terrible ordeals with one another. Though it is possible I missed the obvious. --Skinnattittar (talk) 12:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In "The Traitor's Hand" Cain says toward the beginning that Magot's "preferences run in an entirely different direction" when Beije insinuates an improper relationship between her and Cain. Grifen and Magot may simply be close friends, but I think the fact that they're on a first name basis implies more than that. Peptuck (talk) 04:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those are good points, and there IS an insinuation, but that is not definite proof. True, I can not think of many other characters who are not implied to be on a first name (or even nic-name) basis with another character who are not implied as having a relationship, but I think the entry should reflect that this is only a suspision and is possibly hinted at. No entry in the series seems to actually dictate either character is a lesbian. If this seems reasonable, I will edit the entry to reflect that it is an implication or suspision, not a dictation as it currently does.--Skinnattittar (talk) 12:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I got no problem with that. Sounds cool. Peptuck (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made a crude but effective edit for the moment, simply removing the statement that Magot being directly described as a lesbian. --Skinnattittar (talk) 11:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

recent edits

BRV means that when you make a bold edit, and someone reverts it, you both go and discuss it, not change it back again. changing back again is the war edit wars start. As for the actual material, try a shorter summary. Indicate where in the work the material comes from primary sources are fully acceptable for this sort of material. DGG (talk) 22:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of notability

I'm a huge fan of WH40K and have been since about mid-1980s. I'm an even bigger fan of keeping Wikipedia relevant to real-world issues that actually meet Wiki standards of notability. This imaginary character, like any other imaginary character, doesn't warrant more than a passing mention in whatever imaginary world they inhabit. Imho. Feel free to write whatever on Lexicanum or WH40Kwiki or 1d4chan. This is not the place and just takes moderator and volunteer time away from actually important things. I recommend this page for deletion or redirect to the main WH40K page.Oathed (talk) 01:35, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]