Talk:Churche's Mansion

Note on reliability of sources

I have not found a detailed description of the building in any printed source. The information sourced from the Dabber's Guide website is broadly confirmed in other sources eg Nantwich: A Brief History and Guide by PJ Stevenson. The information at Bill Pearson's website generally appears to conform with photographs of the exterior/interior from the Churche's Mansion website, but a more reliable source for the details sourced uniquely from this (ie, the cupboard with initials & the love knot) would be useful. That the building is one of few to survive the Great Fire is documented in several sources, but being one of only three buildings to survive derives only from the Borough of Crewe & Nantwich walk guide plus a few other unreferenced online sources. Espresso Addict 15:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Much of the article has now confirmed by the Hall history. Espresso Addict 19:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Trivia?

Some Trivia if anyone wishes to add this. Malbank Secondary School & Sixth Form Centre on Welsh Row, Nantwich has several Forms named after famous Nantwich names. One of these is Churche, named after Churches Mansion. The form was founded in 1993 to deal with an increase in student numbers. How do I know this? I was in that form in 1993.

Also, Churches Mansion was featured heavily in a recent episode of Most Haunted:Midsummer Murders, when the fake ghost seeking crew walked around Nantwich making things up more so than usual - Shaft121 08:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, Shaft121. Do you know which episode of Most Haunted? I can't seem to find Nantwich mentioned on their website [1]. Espresso Addict 13:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't on the main Most Haunted programme, but rather on the spin-off, Midsummer Murders. It aired sometime this year on Living, I think around May/June - Shaft121 08:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Scratch that, check these links. It was featured in a programme broadcast on 26th June 2007. Check the links: http://www.tributemosthaunted.co.uk/midsummer1.html http://www.livingtv.co.uk/mosthaunted/msm_nantwich.php - Shaft121 08:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold

I really enjoyed this article, it brought back some memories of my early upbringing in nearby Crewe. The editors are to be congratulated on producing such a readable and informative article.

I do have a few issues I'd like to see addressed before it's listed as GA though. Some of them are just to do with the wikipedia manual of style, which I know can seem pretty picky, but nevertheless it's our house style guide:

• Quotations should be enclosed by double quotes – " –.
• "A panel under a window to the right of the entrance ..." Which entrance? The front entrance?
• The citation should follow the quote, not precede it.
• "The land in 'Hospitull Strete'..." Why is Hospitull Strete in quotes? I don't understand what the rest of that sentence is trying to say either: "The land ... had been granted ... by two different John Marchomleys ..." Is this an early case of identity theft? Why did it need to be granted twice?
• "Other family members, the mercer Thomas Church and his nephew William occupied 46 and 48 High Street, rebuilt in 1584 after the fire." Why is that relevant? Churche's mansion is in Hospital Street.
• "Standing on the edge of the old town, Churche's Mansion survived the fire six years after it was built which burned for twenty days and destroyed almost all of Nantwich east of the River Weaver. The only other buildings known to have survived were nearby Sweetbriar Hall and St Mary's Church.[7] Craftsman Thomas Clease or Cleese was prominent among those involved in reconstructing Nantwich after the Great Fire, and the 'Queen's Aid House' on the High Street, another of his works, is known for its inscription thanking Elizabeth I for her aid in the town's rebuilding." I think this is unfocused; this is an article about Churche's mansion, not the Great Fire of Nantwich.
• The first floor hall features a coffin drop (a hole allowing the lowering of large items such as a coffin)" Why would the house need a coffin drop? What would it typically be used for?
• "The protruding floor joists are concealed by plaster coving in a fashion unique to Cheshire". I think a brief explanation of that uniqueness would be helpful to a reader.
• How many rooms does the house have? Bedrooms, reception rooms?
• "Gilded carvings of Richard and Margerye Churche are located above the door, on either side" What door? The front door presumably?
• I think the lead should be expanded a bit, it doesn't currently summarise the article adequately I don't think.
• How is the mansion roofed? Tiles, slates?
• Did the mansion have any grounds/gardens? If it did, what happened to them?
• There are a few minor prose issues as well, but I'm sure we can work together on those.

Overall I think this is an article that deserves GA status, and if we can work together to resolve the issues I've flagged then I'm sure it will make it. Well done to all the editors for the work done so far. In the meantime, I've placed this article on hold. --Malleus Fatuarum 00:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You're doing a fine job in dealing with the points I raised above. Without wishing to overwhelm you, I do have a few additional questions though:

• Is the spelling of "Saboth Churche" correct? The Churche's Mansion web site has it as "Sabboth Churche".
• "An Elizabethan well was discovered during renovation work" Is this well in the kitchen?
• For the sake of completeness, I think that the Myott's ought to be briefly mentioned, as without them the building would now be in the USA. Particlularly if it's true, as one of the references claims, that likenesses of the Myotts "can be seen on the facade of the property". Similarly, I think that the walled garden ought to be given a mention.
• GA doesn't mandate any particular style of providing references, so this suggestion doesn't have any bearing on whether the article is listed or not. I'm assuming that the references numbered 3 and 4 are referring to the same Pevsner & Hubbard book, and that the reason for including the reference twice is to refer to different page numbers? If that's not the case, then the book details are missing for reference 4, but if it is, then might I suggest the style of formatting the References section used on articles like Sir John Brunner, 1st Baronet, split into footnotes and a bibliography? I think it makes things clearer where there are references to different pages in the same book. --Malleus Fatuarum
• ".. a rate book ... gives the rates as 2 shillings 8½ pence". Is that a year?
• I'm unclear what dates given as "1474/5" mean. Is that in about 1474, in 1474 or 1475, or something else? --Malleus Fatuarum 13:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I'd been answering some of your concerns point by point, but the double edit conflict has confused this. Will cut & paste my responses to your earlier points below:

• Quotations should be enclosed by double quotes – " –.
  • Done.
• "A panel under a window to the right of the entrance ..." Which entrance? The front entrance?
  • Clarified.
• The citation should follow the quote, not precede it.
  • Done by the reviewer.
• "The land in 'Hospitull Strete'..." Why is Hospitull Strete in quotes? I don't understand what the rest of that sentence is trying to say either: "The land ... had been granted ... by two different John Marchomleys ..." Is this an early case of identity theft? Why did it need to be granted twice?
  • I have removed the quotes, which were to indicate that the historical spelling in the original document was used. The two John Marchomleys were father and son; I have tried to clarify this sentence, but my source doesn't state why the transfer included so many other parties (possibly several parcels of land with different ownership were transferred at once?).
• "Other family members, the mercer Thomas Church and his nephew William occupied 46 and 48 High Street, rebuilt in 1584 after the fire." Why is that relevant? Churche's mansion is in Hospital Street.
  • I was trying to establish the prominence of the Church family, as 46/48 High St is among the five or so other major timber-framed buildings remaining in Nantwich, but I agree it feels a bit of a digression, so I've removed it.
• "Standing on the edge of the old town, Churche's Mansion survived the fire six years after it was built which burned for twenty days and destroyed almost all of Nantwich east of the River Weaver. The only other buildings known to have survived were nearby Sweetbriar Hall and St Mary's Church.[7] Craftsman Thomas Clease or Cleese was prominent among those involved in reconstructing Nantwich after the Great Fire, and the 'Queen's Aid House' on the High Street, another of his works, is known for its inscription thanking Elizabeth I for her aid in the town's rebuilding." I think this is unfocused; this is an article about Churche's mansion, not the Great Fire of Nantwich.
  • I have shortened and split this, but I believe it should be included as the survival of the Great Fire means Churche's Mansion is the oldest substantially unaltered timber building in the town, and it's also the only other information available about the builder, Thomas Clease.
• The first floor hall features a coffin drop (a hole allowing the lowering of large items such as a coffin)" Why would the house need a coffin drop? What would it typically be used for?
  • I've expanded this a little, but I've been unable to find any more detail about coffin drops (aka coffin traps) either online or in my print sources. It would be a useful new wiki article, if anyone has a reference.
• How many rooms does the house have? Bedrooms, reception rooms?
  • I've tried to clarify this a little; however, the original usage is conjectural, and I think the property has been in commercial use since it was renovated.
• "Gilded carvings of Richard and Margerye Churche are located above the door, on either side" What door? The front door presumably?
  • Clarified.
• How is the mansion roofed? Tiles, slates?
  • Now mentioned.

Thanks for the very thorough and helpful review, Malleus Fatuarum. I've put a few responses above; must dash now but will return to this later. Espresso Addict 14:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Some answers to the subsequent questions below (let's hope no edit conflict this time!):

• Is the spelling of "Saboth Churche" correct? The Churche's Mansion web site has it as "Sabboth Churche".
  • Correct per Hall, it's spelled Saboth/Sabbath/Sabboth Church(e) in various sources.
    • I've given some alternatives in the text.
• "An Elizabethan well was discovered during renovation work" Is this well in the kitchen?
  • It's only mentioned in one source which unfortunately doesn't say, other than it was found during hearth excavation, so presumably is indoors.
• For the sake of completeness, I think that the Myott's ought to be briefly mentioned, as without them the building would now be in the USA. Particlularly if it's true, as one of the references claims, that likenesses of the Myotts "can be seen on the facade of the property". Similarly, I think that the walled garden ought to be given a mention.
  • Myott is already briefly mentioned in the history section. Much of the material I have on him, however, is from rather unreliable sources, so I'd prefer not to expand too far unless I can get hold of other sources. The garden is now mentioned under Grounds.
• GA doesn't mandate any particular style of providing references, so this suggestion doesn't have any bearing on whether the article is listed or not. I'm assuming that the references numbered 3 and 4 are referring to the same Pevsner & Hubbard book, and that the reason for including the reference twice is to refer to different page numbers? If that's not the case, then the book details are missing for reference 4, but if it is, then might I suggest the style of formatting the References section used on articles like Sir John Brunner, 1st Baronet, split into footnotes and a bibliography? I think it makes things clearer where there are references to different pages in the same book. --Malleus Fatuarum
  • Yes -- same book, different page is intended there. I thought I'd already split the references like that; it must have been some other article I've been working on recently!
    • Now done.
• ".. a rate book ... gives the rates as 2 shillings 8½ pence". Is that a year?
  • The source doesn't say so, but one would have assumed so.
• I'm unclear what dates given as "1474/5" mean. Is that in about 1474, in 1474 or 1475, or something else? --Malleus Fatuarum 13:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The dates are given in the original documents per year of reign of king/queen, so cross the boundaries of years. I'm not sure how to clarify this without overly labouring the point. Espresso Addict 14:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• A few further notes added. Espresso Addict 16:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Summary of review so far

Some great work done today. In view of the volume of comments and responses, I thought it might be an idea to summarise where I think we are now. You'll no doubt be pleased to hear I've got only a very few points outstanding, none of them serious or show-stoppers:

• "Standing on the edge of the old town, Churche's Mansion survived the fire six years after it was built which destroyed almost all of Nantwich east of the River Weaver." I've been uncomfortable about this sentence right from the off. I think it's because the "it" after "fire" relates back to the mansion, but it looks like the subject is "... the fire six years after it [the fire] was built ..." I'd be happier if this sentence was rejigged.
• "Richard Churche willed the mansion on Ospell Street ..." That's the first mention of Ospell Street. Presumably it's a variation on Hospital Street, and the mansion being described is Churche's Mansion?
• "... it was untenanted, and was used as a granary and hay store by a local cowkeeper." Cowkeeper sounds odd to me, but if that's what the sources say, then fair enough.
• "Only the window above the porch is possibly original; some date from the 18th century, but several were replaced during 20th century renovations." Should this be "... and several were replaced"? As it stands, it's not clear to me what was replaced in the 20th century; was it the original windows, or the replacements that were fitted in the 18th century?

And that's it. When we've agreed on those four points I'll be happy to list this article as a GA, which I think it well deserves. --Malleus Fatuarum 17:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Malleus Fatuarum. I've rephrased all of the above except cowkeeper, as that is what the source mentions. Looking forward to your further comments! Cheers, Espresso Addict 18:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I've only got one further comment to make, and that's brilliant work! I've got no hesitation at all in listing this article as a GA now. Perhaps it will also act as an inspiration to other editors on the Cheshire project when they see that the review process needn't be a bad experience for either the editor or the reviewer, and that what emerges from it is hopefully a significantly improved article, pass or fail. You've done a great job on this article, well done. --Malleus Fatuarum 19:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Malleus, for a most helpful and speedy review process! I agree the revised article is significantly improved. If only all review processes were as positive! Espresso Addict 19:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)