Talk:Christianity in Japan

Too much information on denominations

There is too much detail on the actual beliefs of different sects; nearly half of the jehovah's witness section was summarizing their theology, something best left to its own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.252.168 (talk) 05:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

This was a good point and it looks like it has been fixed. Tea and crumpets (talk) 01:19, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Christianity in Popular Culture

I feel it is important to stress the influences Christianity has on weddings. It is becoming increasingly more common to have a "Christian" wedding for the sake of an extravagant ceremony. Furthermore, much like Las Vegas, USA has Elvis; Japan has wedding chapels with Christian "priests". This "priests" are nothing more than government officials certified to oversee a marriage. Since I don't have credible research materials, and I don't live in Japan, would anyone be able to add some credible material? 63.161.86.254 (talk) 15:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention the influence on music and art. Some articles state that Gospel music is popular in Japan[1]. About the wedding thing, there is already a Wikipedia article on it: Western Style Weddings in Japan. A quick google search brought up a few articles as well: BBC News Faking it as a priest in Japan, Japanese prefer Christian weddings, "Christian" marriages increasingly the norm in Japan, Western Style Weddings in Japan --Azure Shrieker (talk) 15:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

While I think it is important to indicate how Christianity has impacted Japan (or Asia in general), I feel that the scope of the article should mainly be on actual Christian practice in Japan. As Azure Shrieker generously indicated, there is already an article on the Christian weddings. As far as music and art go, I'm not aware of an article on Christian popular media in Asia (or something along those lines). That could potentially be a very interesting article considering the secular nature of Asia. My only concern would be to limit the amount of original research. --JadeFox (talk) 13:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Suppression

surely some mention needs to be made of the bloody suppression of christianity under, i believe, the second tokugawa shogun, circa 1630.Toyokuni3 (talk) 20:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. Added section on Religious Persecution.122.1.97.94 (talk) 01:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't Hepburn first?

Divie Bethune McCartee was the first Protestant Christian missionary to visit Japan in 1861-1862.

The article on James Curtis Hepburn says "in 1859, he decided to go to Japan as a medical missionary". Next year we're celebrating the 150th anniversary of Protestant Christianity in Japan, dating that from the arrival of Hepburn. Lathos (talk) 11:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he was first. I have made the appropriate changes. Modified McCartee to read

Divie Bethune McCartee was the first ordained Protestant Christian missionary to visit Japan in 1861-1862.

I assume as Hepburn was a physician and not a cleric that he was not ordained. Jawadbek (talk) 11:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Notable Japanese Christians

Shouldn't Chiune Sugihara be mentioned here? Saving 6-10 thousand people is definitely 'notable' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitelaughter (talk • contribs) 03:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, added content from Wiki article. More references are needed however.Jawadbek (talk) 11:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Other missing notable Japanese Christians include Takashi Nagai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takashi_Nagai and Yasutake Funakoshi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasutake_Funakoshi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk • contribs) 16:59, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Japan

The Japan have 509,668 Catholics, the Japan have 509,668 Protestants. The Roman Catholicism in Japan have references, the Protestants no. Someone might find the references to the Protestants? Sorry my bad English. Bruno Ishiai (talk) 22:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

WPJ Question

Just curious here, but why is it that this article "does not require a rating on the project's quality scale"? Boneyard90 (talk) 23:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I know I'm just redirecting you, but you might be more likely to find an answer at WP:WikiProject Japan since they are the ones doing the rating. Alternatively, you might find some explanations in the WPJ banner's links, above.

-- Joren (talk) 10:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. Someone just tagged it that way inadvertently, I'm sure. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:41, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?

I noticed the top of this page reads the line "OLIVIA WAS HERE!!!!". I am not much an expert on Wikipedia style code, but I doubt that line has anything to do with Christianity in Japan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.241.214.36 (talk) 13:09, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm confused. That vandalism appears to have been reverted (by a bot?) as soon as it was done on the 22nd, but I clearly saw it when I landed on the page today (and did so yesterday from another machine). But now (minutes later) when I go to the page I don't see it. I thought there was something screwed up at my end, but the above comment dated 28th indicates I'm not the only one. Anyone know what is going on? 81.129.212.129 (talk) 06:43, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Catholics not in communion with Rome?

I have long wondered whether those Christians who were isolated from international Christianity felt any disconnect when they met their con-freres after the Meiji restoration. A colleague from Japan recently told me that this is indeed the case and that some Christians decided to maintain their own (somewhat syncretic) traditions and not conform to the orthodoxy of 19th century europe. I came to this article to confirm this, but nothing is there. Can anyone provide insight or information? Tibetologist (talk) 18:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Though this is a very old post, for future reference: The page on these people is Kakure Kirishitan. VDZ (talk) 06:41, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Do not hide the evildoing of the Christian.

Christianity was prohibited in 1587. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.39.36.62 (talk) 13:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

1 You hide a slave trade and Christian connection.

2 The destruction of the Shinto shrine and Buddhism temple.

Why do you hide the act of the devil? The Christian is described like a person of the tragedy by this article. 60.39.36.62 (talk) 10:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

This kind of thing should certainly be included in the article, although I personally have no knowledge of the subject. Someone who has done more research on Japanese religious history can add a lot to this article. As with many Wikipedia articles, it is incomplete. Tea and crumpets (talk) 01:27, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

The Japanese version of this article is much longer, perhaps it has more information on this. I am adding a Japanese translation request. Tea and crumpets (talk) 01:34, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Mormons are not Christian

Mormons are not Christians. They should not be listed here. Jehovah's Witness are not considered Christian either, at least by the majority of the Christian world. Catholics, protestants, and Eastern Orthodox all exclude those two faiths. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.247.161 (talk) 22:08, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, considering the official title of the Mormon church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the Book of Mormon states right on the cover that it is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ", I think you you're going to need more than your personal opinion to change anything. Any cursory study of Mormon theology shows that Jesus Christ is a primary focus of their belief system. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:28, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Islam believes in Jesus and God, too. Should we add Islam to a denomination of Christianity. ISIL is Christian??! If you just convince them of this, maybe they'll themselves for us?

The denominations of Christianity accept each other as members. Some more or less than others. The Mormons will not accept any christian in their church and Christian churches won't accept any Mormon in their church. The Mormons have gone out of their way to try to push their religion into the mainstream by focusing on the parts of Christianity they may use similar words for. A few words are similar. That is it. Hilltrot (talk) 02:02, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2002/04/we-look-to-christ?lang=eng - start at 6:10.

While most other sects do exclude them for theological reasons, from an academic and anthropological perspective, they are a Christocentric Restorationist movement that self-identifies as Christian -- or just "Christian" in short. And Wikipedia sides with secular academia on such matters. If we based articles on theological perspectives, in order to remain neutral, we'd have to say that no one has it right, especially the people who say that no one has it right. It's just easier to avoid the whole issue of who's right or wrong entirely. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:48, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

The Mormon church is not Christo-Centric - they are Joseph-centric.Hilltrot (talk) 02:02, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhY-vmhQPMI

I will allow a week for any significant sources which oppose the deletion before deleting. Hilltrot (talk) 02:02, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

@Hilltrot: Youtube does not meet our reliable sourcing standards, your personal sectarian interpretations of the video go against our policy on original research, and I seriously doubt that that video would prove that they do not self-identify as Christian. From an emic theological perspective, I personally agree that Mormons are not Christian (I also think the Prosperity Gospel is irredeemable Mammon worship with no prosperity and no Gospel) -- but Wikipedia operates from an etic anthropological perspective. Mormons identify as Christian, their origins are tied to Christianity, and they claim Jesus is some sort of central divinity (unlike Muslims, so your comparison there fails). Rather than pick some of the plethora of academic sources that describe Mormonism as a sect within broader earthly Christianity, I'm just going to point to the sources at Mormonism and Christianity. Even an article that covers the differences between the two is based on sources which describe Mormonism as a sect within broader earthly Christianity.

Also, if you believe that it is necessary to remove it here, by all means go to the articles on Christianity and Mormonism and attempt to remove any references to one from the other. Start top-down to see if you're correct instead of picking on lesser watched portions of the site. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:06, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

https://video.byui.edu/media/Jayson+Kunzler+%E2%80%9CMillions+Shall+Know+Brother+Joseph+Again%E2%80%9D/0_jun5hvww/25962242

There you go. From their academic website. The same video. This is from them. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. So your using it is laughable. Do you have any reliable sources where the leaders of the Morman describe themselves as a denomination of Christianity? I am the only one here who has provided sourced material and that material shows that they are not a denomination of Christianity.Hilltrot (talk) 05:58, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Does that video explicitly say that they think Smith is more important than Jesus, or is that just your sectarian personal interpretation? You have not provided reliable sources to demonstrate that they are not Christian, you have provided your own sectarian interpretation of a video.

You misrepresent what I said. Go to the Mormonism and Christianity article, and look at the references that article cites. I did not cite the article, I pointed to the references it cites. Since you are not willing to look for sources that run counter to your preconceived notions, I will add a few shavings from the tip of the iceberg to the end of my post.

The fact that the Mormon church calls itself "The CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints" makes your request for sources that they consider themselves a Christian denomination look like trolling or gross incompetence. Are you really that ignorant of Mormonism or are you here to fuck with people? Now, if you are going to argue that because they don't recognize themselves as part of a broader church (i.e. not a denomination), by that logic Catholics would be excluded. Both Catholics and Mormons do not deny that other Christians are Christian, but they both affirm that their own church is the only true Church. If you even try to argue that Catholics aren't Christian, I will push to have you topic banned from all religion related articles.

And again, if you really think you are right, go to the Mormonism article and remove all references to Christianity. Quit sneaking around on this little page that not as many people monitor. If you aren't willing to do that, it's because you know you're academically in the wrong here. Ian.thomson (talk) 06:47, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

A few sources that describe Mormonism as a sect within Christianity:

• Brooke, John L. (1994), The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644–1844, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, p. xv, Mormonism springs from the sectarian tradition of the Radical Reformation, in fact from its most extreme fringe.
• Hill, Marvin S. (1969), "The Shaping of the Mormon Mind in New England and New York" (PDF), BYU Studies, 9 (3): 363–65
• Ford, Clyde D. (2005), "Lehi on the Great Issues: Book of Mormon Theology in Early Nineteenth-Century Perspective" (PDF), Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, 38 (4): 75–76, [T]he Book of Mormon decides controversies in a number of areas, including those argued among early nineteenth century American theologians.
• Van Biema, David (June 24, 2001), "KINGDOM COME", TIME Magazine, 'The church's message, he explained, "is a message of Christ. Our church is Christ-centered. He's our leader. He's our head. His name is the name of our church."'

Ian.thomson (talk) 06:47, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

• Comment An article "Christianity in the United States" has a subsection " The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in a section " Major denominational families".―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 06:22, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Christian prime ministers

there have been eight Chinese prime minister in Japan. they are Manchurian candidates. Yuriko Tanabe (talk) 05:56, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Do you have evidence to support your theory? If you are only here to argue your pet theories, this is not the place. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:04, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

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"Mormonism"

I changed the term "Mormonism" to "Latter-day Saints" and referenced the Church's style guide in my edit description. I should have referenced Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints. I think my edit fits the guidelines there as well. If future edits refer to other Mormon sects that exist in Japan, then it may be appropriate to have the heading "Mormonism," but as the article is right now, it is only referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Just trying to clarify my edit, thanks. Tea and crumpets (talk) 01:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality of section Threat to Japan

It seems to me that the “Threat to Japan” section is somewhat biased. Partially simply because of the phrasing/framing of certain… “facts”, but also because certain assertions in the text seem a little… questionable, and very much need sources/citations if they are to remain.

Examples of phrasing/framing I find suspect: “he learnt that missionaries were… destroying Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples”, “noticed that secret mission”, “realized that Christianity is threat” — these phrases imply that certain… narratives about Christians in Japan are objectively true, as opposed to e.g. simply being the beliefs/opinions of Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Obviously such phrasing can be changed pretty easily, and if there is concrete evidence of such things than it is correct. However, that brings me to my second concern…

Lack of sources: The section lacks any sources, and in particular I find these claims questionable: that Christian missionaries were “destroying Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples”, and that the “secret mission of missionaries” was to “take over the whole country”. But really the whole section needs sources.

Maybe I am wrong about this section being biased. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill considering how tiny the section is. Well, either way, I ultimately just want to make this article, and thus wikiPedia, better, which is why I’m starting this talk page discussion. Sorry for rambling — 2600:1700:1261:E730:E48C:F0A1:84D3:D91A (talk) 00:26, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

__ I apologize for my inexperience in using the talk space here but there are serious problems with this section. Aside from Ieyasu being listed when he was dead at the time at the Shimabara rebellion and his grandson Iemitsu was the shogun at the time. There is also an issue with how it describes the Shimabara rebellion. It was the largest rebellion of the Edo jidai not in all Japanese history. Techinically all the internal Japanese wars were rebellions of some kind. The Sekigahara would techinically be the largest singular rebellion. This section also appears to misunderstand the nature of politics at the time. Being powerful and showing power was important to the governmental forces.

Here is an easy to read article to get the gist of what the actual fear was and it is properly sourced from well respected academics in the field. 183.77.216.91 (talk) 01:45, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

It seems like the issues have been resolved. I removed on last thing from the section and removed the neutrality dispute. Roger the Monkey (talk) 21:27, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Jesuits and the Problem of Slavery in Early Modern Japan

This is a very interesting subject to me, so I tried to investigate some more to find real evidence or proof that some Christians indeed where engaging in slave trade (which frankly doesn't surprise and I think it was expectable for the time). I speak spanish, french, a boit of german and english and only could find this paper, which can shed a bit of light on the matter. The Japanese view the subjugation of their religious practices under the Christian faith as a form of enslavement of their culture, as philosophy and religion are entangled as one it becomes a threat for their political system- Also Christians planning to help colonize and destabilize Japan seems preposterous though.

"The Portuguese chronicler Gomes Eanes de Zurara is a great example of the royal ideology of his time. The tone used by him and the definitions he offers for just war and justifications for slavery, however, are a result of Zurara’s time, when slavery became one of the industries of the Portuguese overseas enterprise. The result of these mid-fourteenth century policies was that just war came to substitute the notion of holy war, thus making available to states the power to continue their wars as long as they were justified. As Seymour Drescher explains, the “boundaries of enslavability gradually came to be restricted by religious affiliation, but the enslavement of infidels in a just war offered ample scope for the continuation of the institution. 241 ” In this sense, the Dum diversas helped to confirm and legitimate an expansion of the notion of religious infidelity and allowed the Portuguese administration to justify slavery by itself"

http://repository.tufs.ac.jp/bitstream/10108/91848/1/dt-ko-0244.pdf Jesuits and the Problem of Slavery in Early Modern Japan Rômulo da Silva Ehalt, Doctor of Philosophy (Humanities) Degree Number Ko-no. 244 March 12, 2018 Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, JAPAN

-CARISTIZABALMCaristizabalm (talk) 08:11, 31 July 2021 (UTC)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Caristizabalm-Caristizabalm (talk) 08:11, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Some articles say that Christianity is spreading among Japanese youth, but it is not true.

Some articles say that Christianity is spreading among Japanese youth, but it is not true. At least in 2020, the Christian population in Japan will still be less than 1% of the total.

• https://www.christiantoday.co.jp/articles/30484/20220121/2021-religious-year-book.htm

The source of this story seems to be the following survey. However, this statement is not credible because it does not even have a decent knowledge of Japanese, such as "does not even have an appropriate word for hope. We either use ibo, meaning desire, or nozomi, which describes something unattainable.", it is just a racist cultural theory that white people often come up with.--雪融 (talk) 14:12, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree, there should have been more sources for such a claim including multiple surveys. Also, 2006 data is rather outdated for opinion based data so more recent evidence would be beneficial. 2001:8003:B027:ED00:459C:43EF:6689:2DF3 (talk) 13:39, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

• https://mercatornet.com/after_fatalism_japan_opens_to_faith/6222/

This article has a serious problem with sources and dates in general. It looks to me like it just needs to be rewritten with WP:RS-compliant scholarship, rather than obvious WP:RS fails like Christianity Today. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:22, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Это правда?

Это правда? 24.94.29.245 (talk) 01:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

data from 2019 (2018) and 2022 (2020)

Something is odd here the data says 2019 there was 1.9 millions christians (as per US government data) as of 2019 as per r01nenkan.pdf (bunka.go.jp) However in 2022 as per the article (actually as per report of bunka) 94046801_01.pdf the numbers is 1.262 for 2020 that makes a fall of 700 000 christians, is there any issue with the counting ? Where to find a proper estimation, cause a gap of 700 000 is quite huge 103.252.200.250 (talk) 07:17, 6 June 2024 (UTC)