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Before we start an edit war

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Hello everyone , I'm surprised that there are contradicting sentences when I compared the Arabic and English pages concerning the part of "Under Muslim rule, the ethnic Copts were cut off from the main stream of Christianity, and were compelled to adhere to the Pact of Umar covenant" . Is there any reference to that ? According to the Arabic page it says opposite; there was no compelling in the Islamic religion, and when I checked in the book of The story of the church of Egypt E L .Butcher and the Medieval Sourcebook: Accounts of The Arab Conquest of Egypt, 642, it says Amr Ibn El Ass stipulated that the Egyptian Christians should absolutely be free to practice their religion on condition of paying jizyah. ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaimaa Abdellatif (talk • contribs) 10:24, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I made some minor changes. They were undone with no comment. I'm willing to believe that there is a very good reason my changes were bad. Please, someone explain it here. Pending that explanation I've put them back. My reasoning is that the link did not appear to have any content, and that without reference for any of them it did not make sense to separate the estimated numbers that way. --Alynna 23:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No edit war intended. I will look for references and will refrain from making any further edits until I can provide references. Thank you. --Lanternix 00:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, cool. I may have been over-inclined to expect one in a religion article. Thanks for the reference-looking. --Alynna 03:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

hello people i just dont know who wrote that christianity in egypt ranges from 10% to 20%!!! by the way iam egyptian and any one came to egypt will know that the percentage of christians in egypt is no more than 10% offcourse thats more than the official figures which state that christian percentage in egypt is 6% i say that percentage of egyptian christian may rach to 10% but no more and thats very clear in the streets of egypt in which 80% of egyptian females wearing hijab(head craft) so as maximum christian percentage in egypt make about 10% of the total population or about 8 million person and most of the neutral statistics clearing that like cia world fact book and usa state department in which the most reliable figures —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spike 25 (talk • contribs) 16:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please review Wikipedia's policy against citing oneself. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree.
Even if those numbers are true, then that would contradict what you were saying.
Quote:

"80% of egyptian females wearing hijab(head craft) so as maximum christian percentage in egypt make about 10%"

...what is 100% - 80%? You don't have to have my level of math to know that one! ~ Troy (talk) 22:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

christian percentage range from 10%:20% thats realy silly ,who say that shit??? we are egyptians and we know that christians in egypt will not exceed 10% maximum and who say that copts are 11 million or even 15 million!!!!!!!!!!! dont know any thing about egypt christians

Well, if you're saying that to me directly, then you're totally wrong. A: I AM an Egyptian Christian. B: you haven't cited any sources. ~ Troy (talk) 03:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

in fact there is a source for this information, if u checked the references in the end of the page from the US dept and the UK dept u will find that they say that Christians in Egypt represent 10% which mean around 8 millions in total, 95% of those are Copts and this is 7,200,000... User:khaledattalla —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.11.131.26 (talk) 22:05, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This page seems to be overtaken by some crusade mentality Christians. Distorting facts and all latest and old research. It is simply not true that Christians make up 10-15% of the population. Such a percentage makes a big impact on society as we see in places like Malaysia, Indonesia, Lebanon. today Egypt is 95% Muslim according to sources like PEW.

Think carefully how they got there information the Pew Research Centre only emailed 16,000 women in a survey only thats according to Egyptian law illegal but after former president Mubarak stepped down they published it. Look I as uni student we learnt that is not adequate research to justify Christians. Hoerver, a good reliable unbiased source like Al Ahram news mentioned they are 10 - 15% of Egypts population of 104 million. Also Al Ahram is Egyptian government owned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adel lll (talk • contribs) 05:26, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers

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The numbers in this article don't add up. It states that 10% of Egypt's population is Christian, which would be about 8 million people. It then says that the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, which represents 95% of Christians, has 10 to 15 million members in one section, and then in the table states that church has at most 4 million members. - SimonP (talk) 14:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This was an instance of number vandalism. The Egyptian articles get this a lot. Please help by checking article history and then reverting to the last good version. You can also help by reporting the offending accounts (mostly returning banned users I assume) to WP:ANI. --dab (𒁳) 12:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've trimmed out some dead sources (or extremely old ones) and expanded those I could and put a fuller explanation of who states what when in a explanatory note. Someone might want to explore the Pew Data a bit more carefully since unlike most of the other sources they (a) reveal how they got the number and give the various caveats and (b) a primary purpose was to find that number rather than have it as auxiliary to the main thrust of the info http://www.pewforum.org/2011/12/19/global-christianity-regions/ --Erp (talk) 21:38, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All official estimates like PEW and others have put the population at maximum 4 million. This barely makes 5% of the Egyptian population not 10-15% which is a claim that has no official research or numbers to back it up. Even the official numbers from back in 1950 put it at 8%. So why is this saying that the estimates range from 10-15% which is simply not true? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.45.209.67 (talk) 03:22, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pew isn't an 'official' source but rather a scholarly source (which can often be better). I note the CIA World Factbook (which is closer to an 'official' source) has 10% (admittedly I know the CIA World Factbook figures can sometimes be flat wrong and they don't list their sources). I've pushed the various references to Note 1 to avoid cluttering up the intro. I'm inclined to think closer to 5% myself; however, when we have conflicting generally reliable sources Wikipedia is probably best off just giving the info and references (editors checking said references are reliable) and allowing the reader to draw a conclusion. So far I've only looked at the Intro. --Erp (talk) 05:06, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The end of Christian dominance in Egypt

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Was surprised to see that there was nothing about how Islam came to replace Christianity as the predominant religion in Egypt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.253.129.86 (talk) 01:51, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone add anything to this? I would love for this section to contain some discussion of the disappearance/conversion/replacement of Egypt's Christian population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.244.77.113 (talk) 16:06, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Removal of sourced material

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2602:306:30d0:ed30:10ce:8b45:198b:1c1a (talk · contribs) and 2602:306:30d0:ed30:99d5:6e5c:8e6e:3b6c (talk · contribs) have been removing a sourced sentence on the decline in numbers of Copts and left an edit summary of: "Most Copts didn’t leave the church. There is more genetic difference between Copts & noncopts in Egypt than the difference between English & Irish. This is why Copts & noncopts of Egypt don’t cluster with each other on the PCA plot. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996)" The Nature article never mentions the English/Irish nor indicates that the sourced material removed is wrong. I hope the person behind the IP will respond here with more info. --Erp (talk) 00:32, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How many Christians in Egypt?

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Pew Research Center sought to answer this question based on data from on verifiable census figures and other nationwide surveys. They came up with 4 million (5% of Egyptians). Eight consecutive census results from 1927 to 1996 shows a declining trend in Christian population; 5.7% in 1996. Even if we take in account the possibility of Christians being under-counted in censuses, other surveys too provide the same figures. In the nationally represented Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey of 2008, about 5% of the respondents were reported Christian.[1] Qscience Connect analysed data from the same 2008 survey and found out that there are about 4,274,145 Copts in Egypt.[2] Other estimates are not based on surveys, per se. Yet reputed government agencies like US Department of state, the CIA and the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office estimate the Egyptian Christian population at 9 to 10% (close to 10 million).[3][4][5] Likewise media houses with some repute like the BBC and CNN estimate the Coptic Christian population between 6 to 11 million.[6][7] The incorrect previous estimate of 20 to 30 million Egyptian Christians, merely based on the claims of the Coptic Orthodox church was way above all these estimates by reliable and reputed sources. The poor sources cited for such an unrealistic figure were dubious and unreliable. Hence rounded Coptic Orthodox population at 10 million as in other Wikipedia articles like the list of Christian denominations by number of members. Please note that this figure of 10 million is more than double the survey results and would include the Coptic diaspora.--Longsword9 (talk) 12:45, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "How many Christians are there in Egypt?". Pew Research Center. 16 February 2011.
  2. ^ "Characterizing the Copts in Egypt: Demographic, socioeconomic and health indicators". QScience Connect. 1 June 2013. p. 22. doi:10.5339/connect.2013.22.
  3. ^ "Egypt". United States Department of State.
  4. ^ "Africa :: Egypt — The World Factbook - Central Intelligence Agency". www.cia.gov.
  5. ^ "Country Profile: The Arab Republic of Egypt". webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk.
  6. ^ "BBC - Religions - Christianity: Coptic Orthodox Church". www.bbc.co.uk.
  7. ^ "Who are Egypt's Coptic Christians?". CNN.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:23, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: North African History, AFH 4302

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2023 and 5 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rugbybooster (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Rugbybooster (talk) 22:06, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Improvements to this page

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Population Estimates

  • The current article mentions the lack of Christian population data in the Egyptian census.
  • There is a suggestion to include a section on how estimates are made despite the missing data.
  • This section could discuss the Coptic Church as a potential source, while acknowledging concerns about potential inflation of figures for political reasons (similar to points raised in Persecution Magazine, Coptic Pope Ignites Debate on Christian Population Numbers).
  • It would be helpful to include citations for various estimates and discuss the range provided by third-party sources.

Demographics and Church Growth

  • The article could benefit from a section on demographics of Christians in Egypt, acknowledging the limitations of available data.
  • The recent increase in legalized churches (over 2,800 in the past five years according to a 2023 report by Egypt Today Report on Church Legalization in Egypt Today) could be included as a potential indicator of growth trends.

Monasteries

  • The existing historical section on Christianity in Egypt could be expanded to include information about the most important monasteries in the Coptic tradition, such as Saint Catherine's Monastery, the Monastery of Saint Macarius the Great, and The White Monastery.

Prosecutions and Discrimination

  • The current section on this topic seems well-balanced and can likely remain unchanged.

Editors familiar with these topics are encouraged to help improve the article by incorporating the suggestions above and referencing reliable sources. Youssefa82718 (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a continuation of the discussion:
Recent Attacks
  • The suggestion to include information about recent attacks on Christians in Egypt is important. However, the source you provided (Middle East Eye, Egypt mob burns Christian homes over 'cross' religion affair rumour) focuses on a specific incident where the religious affiliation of the attackers is not confirmed.
  • To discuss sectarian violence, reliable sources that specifically mention Copts being targeted in Minya due to church construction by extremists would be helpful. You can find some reports about such incidents from 2019 to the most recent in 2024 (New Arab, Extremists set fire to Christian homes in southern Egypt or Mission Network News, Egyptian Christians attacked by Islamic extremists).
Kidnapping of Coptic Children and Girls
  • The concern about the increase in kidnappings of Coptic children and girls is a serious one. However, due to the sensitivity of the topic, finding verifiable sources that provide specific statistics or confirm a significant rise might be challenging.
  • Perhaps human rights organizations focused on the region, such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch,could be starting points for locating relevant reports.
Moving Forward
  • Editors can collaboratively research and incorporate these topics while maintaining a neutral tone and relying on credible sources.
  • Terms like "violent" and "aggressive" used for Islamists in Minya might be subjective. Focus on actions and verifiable details from credible sources.
  • Similarly, mentioning the specific sect (Shia) of the attackers might not be relevant unless a source establishes a clear connection.
Youssefa82718 (talk) 16:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unreliable sources

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I am perplexed to find that anyone would believe that Morning Star News Copticsolidarity.org or Persecution.org are reliable sources. These are advocacy sources that have no interest in factual reporting beyond evangelizing their chosen causes, or in being taken seriously by anyone outside of the devout Christian fold. For a topic as serious and controversial as religious persecution, we should be relying on only high quality sources, such as peer-reviewed research papers (reporting in papers of record would also be passable, albeit not preferred). signed, Rosguill talk 17:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Peer-reviewed papers are useful for statistics and overall view though not for recent incidents (peer-reviewed papers take time to get through the peer-review and be published). Amnesty International is considered generally reliable as to facts according to Wikipedia's perennial reliable source listing. I would also consider the US State department reports to be generally reliable. Also respected journalistic sources (for instance Al Jazeera's 2017 report https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/26/coptic-christians-killed-in-minya-bus-attack). Erp (talk) 19:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those other sources seem fine, although I’ve found the U.S. state department reports to vary in quality and would be cautious about their use if it contradicts other sources. signed, Rosguill talk 19:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Check this report by the US embassy in Egypt: https://eg.usembassy.gov/2023-report-on-international-religious-freedom/ Youssefa82718 (talk) 15:44, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In a vacuum I'd say it's ok, but if more reliable sources contradict it (e.g. academic publications) we should defer to the latter. Even other US government publications (e.g. CIA World Factbook) may be somewhat more reliable, as the embassy is more directly involved in voicing the government's political perspectives. signed, Rosguill talk 15:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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