Talk:Choral symphony

Choral symphony is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 19, 2010.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
April 3, 2009	Good article nominee	Listed
June 1, 2009	Peer review	Reviewed
July 6, 2009	Peer review	Reviewed
July 25, 2009	Featured article candidate	Promoted
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on May 16, 2008. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the term choral symphony was coined by French composer Hector Berlioz (pictured) when describing his symphony, Roméo et Juliette?
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Link from articles

Be sure to add links from other articles, not to other articles. Articles should have appropriate places where they link to this current choral symphony article. I have taken a few minutes to add some links. — Andy W. ^{(talk/contrb.)} 22:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Have already done so with some and will continue to do so. Jonyungk (talk) 23:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about Mendelssohn?

I don't know the piece well enough to contribute authoritatively, but wouldn't Mendelssohn's second symphony preclude Mahler's eighth as one that uses chorus and soloists through much of the work? I'll grant that it doesn't use vocal forces the entire work as in the Mahler, but it's more than what Beethoven did in the nineth. PatrickWaters (talk) 21:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. I don't know the work well, either, so scanned the article and found it said the work consisted of three orchestral movements followed by nine vocal ones. This plus the description Mendelssohn gives of the work as "A Symphony-Cantata on Words of the Holy Bible, for Soloists, Chorus and Orchestra" would make me think he might be following the Beethovenian model, since the choral movement in the Beethoven Ninth would correspond to the "Cantata" (?) in the Mendelssohn Second. Anyone else, please feel free to participate. Jonyungk (talk) 00:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification needed

The phrase "...a departure from the Germanic tradition of the time..." is used in the last para of "Music and words as equals". I (and other readers) do not know what that tradition is - can this be rewritten so that it explains how Sea Symphony was a departure from whatever the German tradition is? hamiltonstone (talk) 11:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I looked in the Cox article cited to find this phrase and could not find it, so I removed it. Thanks for pointing this out. Jonyungk (talk) 16:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More queries and suggestions

Currently, the last part of the section "Words determining symphonic form" states:

"More recently, Philip Glass based the philosophical and musical structure for his Seventh Symphony on the Wirrarika sacred trinity.[17] Writing about the work’s respective movement headings and their relation to the overall structure of the symphony, Glass says: 'The Corn' represents a direct link between Mother Earth and the well-being of human beings.... 'The Sacred Root' is found in the high deserts of north and central Mexico, and is understood to be the doorway to the world of the Spirit. 'The Blue Deer' is considered the holder of the Book of Knowledge. Any man or woman who aspires to be a 'Person of Knowledge' will, through arduous training and effort, have to encounter the Blue Deer....[17]"

Having read over this a couple of times, I don't see the link between Glass's explanation and the idea that the words determine symphonic form. Glass appears not to be discussing words, but a structural, philosophical concept. If anything, this is an example of a programmatic intention determining the compositional form. If that is true, it belongs as an example in a later section. Views?

I think you're right. I moved the Glass quote to that section. Jonyungk (talk) 03:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The preceding para (beginning "In his review of Krzystof Penderecki's Seventh Symphony,...") seems to face almost the opposite problem: this appears to be an example very similar to the analysis of Adams' Harmonium. As such, it may be more appropriate to help illustrate "Musical treatment of text". I have to say, though, that I did not find Zychowicz's quote a model of clarity in helping expound the point being made in the WP article. I would be sympathetic to its omission, or to a simpler paraphrase of the point or points he is making.
It's omitted. Jonyungk (talk) 03:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Under the heading "Symphonic versus programmatic", the sentence "More recent efforts have concentrated on expanding the number of movements while having sung texts throughout the work, paying less attention to symphonic form and more to programmic intent", without a reference would represent original research. Can someone find a citation that says that an increasingly programmatic intent is a feature of recent compositions?
Not sure how the following sentence is meant to support the contention of the "Symphonic versus programmatic" section: "Penderecki's Eighth Symphony, subtitled "Songs of Transience," follows a similar pattern to Rachmaninoff's The Bells in tracing "Mankind's journey through life, as reflected in the decay and rebirth of the natural world."[31] Completed and premiered in 12 brief movements in 2005, the symphony was revised, with three movements added, in 2008.[32]" The same is true of the last sentence in the section: "Mythodea, by Vangelis written initially in seven movements in 1993,[34] was expanded to 10 movements eight years later; the text, in Greek, was one of the composer's own devising.[35]". The thing they appear to have in common, is the addition of momvements at a later date. I wasn't sure how either of these was making a relevant point, even though there are hints of interesting insights here. Is it possible to tie this in more clearly, but without conducting original research?
They also have in common that they're not especially symphonic pieces. One is a song cycle and the other is ... whatever it is, but they're really symphonies in name only. Jonyungk (talk) 03:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think your changing the section title may have solved the problem nicely. Jonyungk (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The following sentence need a citation: "Both the Faust and Dante symphonies were conceived as purely instrumental works and only later became choral symphonies."
Done. Jonyungk (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A little further on: I have no idea what an "optimistic peroration" is, I'm afraid - can this be explained?
Changed this to "orchestral peoration." This was actually Shulstad's choice of words, so I may have to go through that section again to make sure all quote marks that should be there are in place. Jonyungk (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have tinkered with the Bantock section. I'd like to consider whether the following can be dropped altogether, since I think the material about Atalanta demonstrates the point, re a choral symphony being constructed out of voices alone, very well:

"Bantock wrote his other two choral symphonies for smaller forces and used those forces in a less experimental manner than in Atalanta.^[1] Even so, he still asks for a 12–part choir for Vanity, a seven–movement work which, again, lasts just over half an hour. Antcliffe calls Vanity "a retrograde step" in many respects from Atalanta. Nevertheless, McVeagh writes, "Much of the writing is broad and bold.... When he brings the whole chorus to a climax, in a sequence of crunching chords spread over the choir's full compass, the grand sweep is overwhelming.... Much of the music's effect comes from [a] contrast of line and mass, light and shade. Often the same phrase passes through the chorus, like a wave."^[2] Pageant is a smaller-scaled work than its two precedecessors and is written in eight movements. "In this parts are provided for Children's voices," Antcliffe writes, "but otherwise there is no experimentation with vocal timbre."^[3]"

Actually, decided to be bold - as I have been elsewhere - and take this out, keeping it pasted here for the record, in case anyone wants to put it back.

No problem. If anyone says anything about it in the future, at least the material is here. Jonyungk (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can I get some clarification on the standard for use of italics in the titles of works? I have done work on consistency, but i am not familiar with the conventions in this area. For example, all symphonic titles that are numbers, eg "Eighth Symphony" are not italicised, but in general sub-titles, such as Atalanta, are italicised. But what about Harris's (or Williamson's) "Symphony for Voices"? Is there a guide anyone can offer? hamiltonstone (talk) 06:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Atalanta isn't a subtitle but the actual title of the work. I have un-italicized any subtitles or movement titles for consistency; "Symphony for Voices" is likewise unitalicized, as are all symphonic titles with numbers. Subtitles for these works are placed in quote marks. Jonyungk (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The direct antecedent for the choral symphony is Ludwig van Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. The Beethoven Ninth incorporates part of the Ode an die Freude ("Ode to Joy"), a poem by Friedrich Schiller, with text sung by soloists and a chorus in the last movement. It is the first example of a major composer using the human voice on the same level with instruments in a symphony." Unclear. Are there or aren't there any earlier examples by minor composers? Or is this unknown? Neither this article nor the linked list says anything further I can see. Peter jackson (talk) 11:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This point has been addressed in a note appended to the section you quoted, citing the New Grove. Jonyungk (talk) 20:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good, & thanks for letting me know on my talk page, though it wasn't necessary, as I'd have looked back here (I use my contriburions log as a sort of short-term watchlist). Peter jackson (talk) 08:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Antcliffe, 339–340.
^ McVeagh, 11–12.
^ Antcliffe, 340.

coining an English term

According to the article, The term "choral symphony" in this context was coined by Hector Berlioz... Since Berlioz was French, and wrote in French, this statement is highly unlikely. What (French) term did Berlioz actually use, and when was this term first brought into English as "choral symphony"? --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:01, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. Berlioz's original French term (translated by Holoman in the cited source as "choral symphony") is "Symphonie avec Choeurs" (the original French text from 1838 is easily found on the internet). When exactly the English term first came into use is more difficult (the OED and New Grove are no help at all in this regard), as is the question of whether the English actually derives from Berlioz. At the moment, we have only Holoman's word for it. He is certainly a very respectable authority and should be good enough for the purposes of this article, though no scholar is infallible.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:17, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The French translates as "symphony with chorus", which does not indicate that Berlioz considered this anything but a symphony with a chorus. Of more interest in the source page you linked is the passage:

Enfin, après une assez longue indécision, je m’arrêtai à l’idée d’une symphonie avec chœurs, solos de chant et récitatif choral, dont le drame de Shakespeare, Roméo et Juliette, serait le sujet sublime et toujours nouveau. J’écrivis en prose tout le texte destiné au chant entre les morceaux de musique instrumentale; Émile Deschamps, avec sa charmante obligeance ordinaire et sa facilité extraordinaire, le mit en vers, et je commençai.

Which is not from the original preface but from Extraits des Mémoires. There, it sounds as if he considers this something new. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:39, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In Holoman's version, the phrase indeed "translates as" "choral symphony", which of course proves nothing. I do not particularly care to argue about whether a "choral symphony" is different from or the same as a "symphony with chorus". I do agree with you that the assertion that Berlioz's preface is the direct source of the phrase in English is at least suspect, but Holoman appears to say that it is. Let us continue searching for evidence that proves him wrong.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More pedagogical first picture

I think it would be nice if the picture in the top right spot more immediatley illustrated what the article is about. The main idea is an orchestra and a choir performing together. --Ettrig (talk) 12:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reger

Reger's Der 100. Psalm, a setting of Psalm 100 in four movements which follow classical models (second slow, third Scherzo), has been called a choral symphony, but I would not now how to integrate it best. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Removed link to ledorgroup in the music and words as equals section

Hello fellow Wikipedians - I have removed a reference link to the ledorgroup.com since it has been identified as a possible source of spam. (see the reference for Robert Strassburg in the article -in the section music and words as equals section). I apologize for referencing such a poor quality site and hope that this corrects the problem. Thanks for your consideration.104.207.219.150 (talk) 23:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)PS[reply]

[1] Antcliffe, 339–340.

[2] McVeagh, 11–12.

[3] Antcliffe, 340.

[1]

[2]

[3]