Talk:Chinese Communist Revolution

rewrote lead

The article is very misleading, not least in having contradictory descriptions in the lead and in the body of the article of what the revolution was. The article follows the correct scholarly view that the revolution started with the founding of the CCP in 1921, or even, as Bianco's book has it, 1915. But the lead limits it to the last phase of the Chinese Civil War. I will make a quick edit to the lead, but we should work a little more to make this the good article it deserves to be.ch (talk) 06:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Lede sentence

I will remove "Chinese People's War of Liberation" and "National Protection War against the Communist Rebellion" from the lede because I cannot find references that these are how the "Chinese Communist Revltion" is "offically known" and in fact few if any references that use them at all. The Google search "National Protection War against the Communist Rebellion" doesn’t find any hits and "Chinese people's war of liberation" finds only a few incidental uses, while People's War of Liberation" doesn’t find hits that describe this article. ch (talk) 02:55, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 4 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Per both WP:COMMONNAME, as well as the scope of the new title being wholly distinct. (non-admin closure) Remsense诉 04:21, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

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Chinese Communist Revolution → Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War –
1. The Chinese People's War of Liberation, National Protection War against the Communist Rebellion, and Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War in the "Other Names" section of the infobox all mean the events between 1946 and 1950, while this article contains the events since 1927. So, "Chinese Communist Revolution" is very different from the three titles mentioned above. The "Other Names" in the Infobox is misleading.
2. The Chinese version of this article uses the title "Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War", and the name is used in multiple contempary media articles. Here are some examples: 1 2 3 4. If not changed, this article will not be the English version of the article "第二次國共內戰".
3. All the images in the Infobox are related to the conflict between 1946 and 1950. None of them are before 1946, so are the other sections of the Infobox.
4. Besides the Chinese version, other language versions, like the Korean and Vietnamese ones, all describe the event between 1946 and 1950.
5. If not changed, sections 2 to 5 of this article will be very similar to the article Chinese Civil War, and there will be lacking an article describing the events between 1946 and 1950.
Besides the title change, I also suggest condensing the sections 2 to 5 of the article while expanding section 6. In addition, the "Date" in the Infobox section should start from 1946, not 1927. GoldWitness (talk) 23:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, since I have to object to some of the OP's reasons. English Wikipedia's policies on article titles act independently than what the Chinese Wikipedia or any other Wikipedia versions are doing. Here on the English Wikipedia, article titles are based on the common name used by a majority English-language sources, not Chinese or other language sources. And if a majority of English-language sources refer to all of those specific events since 1927 under the general umbrella "Chinese Communist Revolution" title, then that should also be reflected here too. Furthermore, as noted in the hatnote template at the top of the article, this page should basically be a general summary style article about the "political and social developments, and the origin and aftermath of the war" while the Chinese Civil War page is more detailed about the specific "military actions". Now if there is a proposal for a further page split to those specific events, while keeping this page a summary style article, that is a separate discussion entirely. Zzyzx11 (talk) 15:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your opinion. The problem is that the Chinese Communist Revolution is not the Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War. This article indicates that they are separate things. I do not oppose the fact that the name "Chinese Communist Revolution" appears in many English-language sources. Instead, I want to suggest that since this article is linked to "第二次國共內戰" (Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War), it should be about the Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War, not a different thing. After renaming, I am open to contributing to a new article called "Chinese Communist Revolution". GoldWitness (talk) 15:50, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Article titles, summary style articles, and page splits here on the English Wikipedia should act independently than what the Chinese Wikipedia or any other Wikipedia version is doing, because English-language sources may organize topics differently than what Chinese or other language sources are doing. I still currently oppose because I myself do not currently find the exact name "Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War" in many English-language sources.[1] Zzyzx11 (talk) 15:58, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  So, do you think it is better to cancel its link to other languages? If so, please help do that. I am not very good at Wikipedia grammar. GoldWitness (talk) 16:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  I will likely be reverted at some point because this page is currently the best equivalent match, regardless of the differences between the other Wikipedias. The links to the other languages are generally more based on language interpretation than literal translations. Zzyzx11 (talk) 16:21, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you. I want to point out that this article indicates that the Chinese Communist Revolution ≠ Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War. Regarding the Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War, there are English language sources like 1 , 2, and 3 that we can find if we try to add a quotation mark when searching. Anyway, I think this is unimportant here. What I think is important is that the two concepts are different, and this article should be either renamed or removed from other languages. GoldWitness (talk) 16:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Again, the organization of topics here is different. Much like American Revolution versus American Revolutionary War. We have one article providing an overview of the political and social developments and changes. And other detailed articles on the actual military actions. What is needed is a page split to a more detailed article on that second civil war, not a page move of the general overview article. Zzyzx11 (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  So, in this way, could you please put forward a request to cancel its link to other languages? I do not know how to do this. After that, we can create a new article called The Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War and link it to "第二次國共內戰". Thank you very much! GoldWitness (talk) 16:52, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Again, I will likely be opposed because this page is currently the best equivalent match on the English Wikipedia. Must have some replacement. Cannot leave it blank. Zzyzx11 (talk) 17:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, do you mean that a page split to a more detailed article on that second civil war is needed? At present, this article occupies the position of the English version of "第二次國共內戰" (Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War). How is it possible to make a page split without first cancelling its link to other languages? Once it is done, a replacement in the form of a page split can be done. GoldWitness (talk) 03:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, a page split to a more detailed article on that second civil war is needed. Then I can replace its link to other languages. I cannot cancel the link if there is no immediate replacement. Zzyzx11 (talk) 14:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have already cancelled its link to Chinese and several other languages. Thanks! GoldWitness (talk) 22:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have also launched a discussion about those languages, which are titled "Chinese Communist Revolution" while actually referring to the Second Kuomintang-Communist Civil War in Wikidata. I think this may be controversial, and thus, a consensus is probably needed to change the links further. I hope you can participate in this discussion. Thanks! GoldWitness (talk) 23:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. I also oppose creating an new page for the "Second Chinese Civil War". That topic is covered as part of Chinese Civil War. It's rare for English-language sources to refer to the 1946-1949 period as the "Second" Civil War. SilverStar54 (talk) 00:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose The article clearly concerns the period 1921-1949; this is a common periodization; there are almost no references to the subect "Second... War" in English.ch (talk) 03:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Further: in reason #2, the four examples of "Second ... War" in Chinese are not Reliable Sources, but commercial or journalistic, and #4 refers to it as "Civil War."ch (talk) 03:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Areas needing attention

Given all the recent interest in this page, I'd like to point out a couple areas needing attention. I would love to devote more time to this article myself (and someday maybe I will), but for the foreseeable future my real life is to busy to do it justice. Hopefully this is of use to other editors who want to improve this page.

• The final few sections are still mostly a copy of the Chinese Civil War page (i.e., they're focused on military developments, not social/political developments). Someone who has the time to research this topic should rewrite these sections so they align with the focus of the rest of the article.
• Someone needs to rework the sections on the 1930s to align with the revolution in the scholarly understanding of the period that occurred around the turn of the 21st century.
• Here is an annotated bibliography of some of the more insightful and informative works on the revolution that I have come across:
  • Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and the Evolution of the Chinese Communist Leadership by Thomas Kampen: Blows up the old narrative of the 28 Bolsheviks and the power struggles in the CCP during the 1930s. Irreplaceable.
  • How the Red Sun Rose by Gao Hua: another myth-busting account of the CCP's internal politics. Focuses on a slightly later period then Kampen, centered on the Yan'an period.
  • New Perspectives on the Chinese Revolution edited by Tony Saich, ‎Hans J. Van De Ven: collection of essays that set the record straight on important episodes in the revolution, based on the sources we now have access to.
  • Engendering the Chinese Revolution by Christina K. Gilmartin: one of the few high-quality sources that focuses on the role of women in the revolution.
  • Facing Japan: Chinese Politics and Japanese Imperialism, 1931-1937 by Parks Coble: does a great job of describing the politics of the Nanjing Decade. Doesn't brush over the numerous factions and personalities in the way many histories do.
  • The Making of China’s War with Japan by Mayumi Itoh: Makes excellent use of primary sources otherwise unavailable in English. Essential for understanding the Xi'an Incident and surrounding developments.
  • Rebels and Revolutionaries in North China, 1845-1945 by Elizabeth J. Perry: great resource for understanding how pre-Communist peasant rebels did and did not get involved in the revolution.
  • Red God: Wei Baqun and His Peasant Revolution in Southern China by Xiaorong Han: case study of the revolution in Guangxi. Does a good job of conveying the more positive aspects of the revolution, and also how native peasant revolutionaries were (and weren't) integrated into the Communist movement.
  • Mountain Fires: The Red Army's Three-Year War in South China, 1934-1938 by Gregor Benton: by far the most comprehensive English survey of the various uprisings and Soviets that sprang up throughout south China during the 1930s. Note that Benton is a Trotskyist with an axe to grind against the CCP leadership's tactics.

• Books I haven't read but that might be useful:
  • Marxist Intellectuals and the Chinese Labor Movement by Daniel Y. K. Kwan
  • A Road is Made: Communism in Shanghai, 1920-1927 by Stephen Anthony Smith
  • The Chinese Revolution in the 1920s: Between Triumph and Disaster edited by A.M. Grigoriev, M.L. Titarenko, Mechthild Leutner, and Roland Felber

SilverStar54 (talk) 17:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

You're a hero! Thanks for such a helpful list. Remsense诉 17:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)