Holden Commodore was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Why does this article group the VY and VZ Commodores with the models before them? The VY introduced an entirely new body design. - Mark07:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
No it didn't. In any case the VL gets its own heading and that wasn't a new body design either. The engine change probably warrants it, although the VZ has a new engine but no separate heading... Anyway, you don't like it, change it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.7.183.130 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe Holden produced a royal wedding edition of the Holden Commodore, probably a VC, may have been a VH. The NSW plates had an ER prefix and a mini plate duplicated on the glovebox. Was this a factory product, dealer sales gimmick or just a privateers aftermarket touch? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.31.2 (talk • contribs) 22:54, 2 November 2005
I noticed that for the VS commodore it says that the engine retained the cast iron block and cylinder heads from the VR. While the cylinder head was still cast iron,. it was a completely different moulding. The VR still had the mouldings from when the engine was used as a V8 and the spark plugs for the front two cylinders were angled towards each other while the rear ones were angle away from the others. This was corrected on the VS and they all angled from the cylinder head the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.18.171 (talk • contribs) 03:49, 6 March 2006
'toyota lexcen' redirects to holden commodore. i have a feeling someone's being naughty... but i don't know how to fix it. just thought i'd let people know. cheers riana16:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The reason for this is that the Lexcen was a rebadged Commodore with very little if anything , other than the badges being changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.88.194.74 (talk • contribs) 04:58, 11 June 2006
We seem to be getting a fair bit of attention on this article. Some is just clear vandalism, but there seems to be quite a bit of attention from those wanting to add point of view statements. I'll try and catch new ones with a citation request. Decromin16:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The picture on the VZ part is wrong. the VZ commodore as the fins that the side blinker is on. Its on the guard under the mirror, but it isnt in the picture...How come? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DRK-MRSTR (talk • contribs) 11:26, 14 September 2006
The fake vents on the VZ were only used on the SS and other high level models. The picture shows an Executive, which did not feature these vents. Decromin16:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I should point out that the Commodore was never a full-size car. For starters, the Commodore has never, and still is not, as big as a Falcon. When the Commodore was introduced in '78, it was significantly smaller than the Kingswood and was much closer to a 'mid-size' car. Although it continued to grow in size with each new generation, it still never quite became a full-size. Look at the facts - the Commodore is still less than 4.9m long, and about 1.85m wide. Those dimensions are about the same as a Camry, 380, Accord, or Sonata, which are all mid-size cars. A full-size is more like 5m+ long and 1.9m+ wide. For example, the Ford Crown Victoria in the US measures 5.4m long - that is a full size car. The Chrysler 300, another full-size car, is exactly 5m long. SOME variants of the Commodore are full-size, however. The wagon and ute are both on a stretched wheelbase, and as such are longer than 5m, as are the Statesman/Caprice. But the sedan with its short wheelbase, still falls short of a true full-size. Davez62109:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Commodore is classed as a full-size car in the Australian market. The BF Falcon is 22mm longer than the VE, however the VE is 35mm wider and 32mm taller. Compared to tha Camry, the VE is 59 mm wider, 79mm longer, but 4mm lower. Compared to the Accord, it's 64mm longer, 79mm wider, and 21mm taller. --Richmeister10:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, according to VFACTs, the Commodore is in the large segment, while the Statesman and 300 are in the 'upper large' segment. To me this says that the Commodore isn't a full-size car, because the term full-size implies that a car is in the largest class. You can't go any bigger than 'full size'. Perhaps a compromise would be to use the term 'large' ? Davez62111:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I will settle on large (according to the Wikipedia article on car classifications, 'large' includes both mid-size and full-size cars), but the Commodore is in no way a full-size car. Davez62107:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Commodore is a large family car in Australia, and is classified as a large car (if not full-size). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.97.238 (talk • contribs) 01:50, 27 September 2006
I think we need the Large Car classification as a stand-alone. The 380, for example, fits the Australian classification of a Large Car, but is listed under Full Size Cars. The identical size Galant is listed under Mid Size. Karldoh23:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree a separate "large car" classification would be good but according to the full-size car article, a full-size car needs to have greater than 120ft³ of interior space. The Commodore/Pontiac G8 has 124ft³ of interior volume[1], so it could properly be classed as full-size by the EPA at least. VectorD13:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Seems that there are forum links coming back onto this page. These links don't meet wiki criteria, but as other automotive pages have plenty of links to fan forums, I'm loathe to keep removing them. Any thoughts on how to treat them? Decromin15:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Quite personally, I just use the undo toll in the edit history. Until an easier method is introduced, I am affraid that we're just going to have to deal with it. Regards OSX (talk • contributions) 22:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Since this is split into separate articles, is the duplication really worth it?? Maybe a few basic notes, and the see X article thing may do? --SunStar Nettalk00:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
HB4026- Ive culled the notes for you. Can you do me a favour to spread out the spacing so it matches the text boxes? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by HarrisonB (talk • contribs) 02:54, 18 February 2007
The article states that "In the VX and succeeding models, the Commodore Berlina became known simply as the Berlina" and quotes "Davis, Kennedy, Kennedy (Part Three), p. 111" to support this. However this ignores the fact that "Davis, Kennedy, Kennedy (Part Three), p. 107" supports the notation that the change happened with the VT rather than the VX. The VT brochure AD10652 of October 1997 also supports this as the two page spread on the Berlina uses the term Holden Berlina rather than Holden Commodore Berlina. GTHO (talk) 11:22, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Berlina did not become a separate model until the VX. In the 1997 book An Australian Legend in The Making by GMH, "Commodore Berlina" is used in lieu of "Berlina", while "Holden Calais" is also used in lieu of "Commodore Calais". The book clearly differentiates the Commodore from the Calais by stating: Commodore Executive, Commodore Acclaim, Commodore Berlina, Commodore S, Commodore SS, and Holden Calais.
A CarPoint search for HOLDEN COMMODORE VT Berlina yields seven pages of results ([2])
A CarPoint search for HOLDEN BERLINA VT yields two results ([3])
It would appear that the VX wins, three votes to two. But this doesn't change the fact that the source used to reference the statement, ie "Davis, Kennedy, Kennedy (Part Three)" actually suggests that the statement is wrong! If you want to run with VX wouldn't it be better to use an inline citation that supports this. GTHO (talk) 11:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although the present article has some vague detail about improvements made to each model it would be nice to see a more thorough and detailed anaylsis of improvements made to a specific model with a clear comparison to the previous model. I am presently trying to find information on a Holden Commodore site somewhere about which model may have the best reputation for reliability and quality etc. and this article at present doesn't really assist in that regard and it seems near impossible to find such information on the internet at all. If the article could be considered for updating in this regard or if someone could point me in the right direction for another site that might have such information it would be greatly appreciated, Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.239.198.171 (talk) 10:21, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
VXII improved suspension, VXII was released September 2011 not early 2012.
I waited for the VXII and my Acclaim sedan was registered at the Victorian Ringwood dealer on 20/9/2001 not "An updated Series II was launched in early 2002, featuring revised rear suspension system now equipped with toe control links to address the VT's issues.[108]" as claimed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.169.252 (talk) 06:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ah great to see illiteracy in action. Can someone identify what is ironic about using a name for a previous model, for a new model? Perhaps that person had better check the definition of Irony first. Thank you, he said sarcastically. Greg Locock (talk) 23:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with OSX here, Greg. If you have a problem with what somebody's written in an article, you should fix it, not leave mocking html comments scattered throughout. And yeah, as OSX pointed out, you pointed out quoted text in a footnote as being unencyclopedic. - Mark04:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise for annotating the refs, I was editing inside one text box without referring back to the article. I have tried to make the first half of the article read as though it was written in English. Greg Locock (talk) 08:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was/is written in English. I am sorry if it didn't meet your standards, but thank you for making your improvements. I look forward to working with you on a more cooperative level in future. I will address your issues, so long as you bring them to my attention in a civilized manner, however, I do apologise for refusing to do so previously. By the way, I removed the comparison of the 5 Series, E-Class and Calais in the VE article last week ([5]). The reason why this was reverted initially was your reasoning in the edit summary. I think we should following Sable232's proposal that "an article for a single model should contain information on that model, not other cars that have their own articles." OSX (talk • contributions) 22:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why do we have a seperate Holden Commodore and VE Holden Commodore article?
Why? Because there is far too much information to include in one article that's why. In the case of the VE, it is only the name that is common between it and the VZ if you count the "car" and not the powertrains. "Its not like the holden commodore is of any international significance." Well it is sold in the Middle East (with the Statesman) and gets good reviews there, the American press seem to love it as the Pontiac G8, although sales are not as high as predicted due to the financial crisis. It is also sold in Brazil, the UK, New Zealand, Southeast Asia and South Africa. Too quote Holden that is every continent except Antarctica, so it is a real understatement to say the Commodore is not of "any international significance." Okay, it is not as significant as the Corolla, but how many cars are? OSX (talk • contributions) 22:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that the image used in the main table isn't the best available Holden Commodore picture available on Wikipedia and Commons such as this one. I have already added it but it has been deleted and I don't know why.--Pineapple fez (talk) 04:08, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some Holden pages say automobile, others car. The term automobile is rarely used in Australia or New Zealand, where Holdens were made. 77.44.45.91 (talk) 19:08, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Moved from here) I find this NZ special very interesting. In an old notebook of mine I came across a mention of it, stating 129hp as the output. Also, was it only available with the 4-speed Jatco automatic? This seems unlikely but it is how the article is currently worded. Perhaps you can shed some light on this? And thanks for including the XT6 photo, btw. ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 08:36, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(Moved from here) Also just happened to encounter the Vectra engined VN Commodore, also highly interesting. In the European market Vectra, such a non-catalyzed engine produced 95 kW (129 PS; 127 bhp), while in the Omega it produced 90 kW (122 PS; 121 bhp). Any clue as to what the output may have been for NZ and Singapore? ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 08:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(Moved from here) I have been told that this car [VR series] was sold in Malaysia and Singapore as the Opel Calais, fitted with Opel's 2.6 litre inline-six. Could anyone please provide a source and more info? ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 09:05, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
VL: that VL information is correct. As per 60 Years of Holden (by Terry Bebbington, 2009) the 2.0-litre engine is quoted as an "export" engine, so it may have been offered elsewhere as well. Per the book, the engine is the RB20-E with EFI, 95 kW (127 hp) and 180 N⋅m (130 lb⋅ft) coupled with the "Jatco 4-speed A/T". This combination is listed in other online sources as well from memory.
VN: as per Bebbington (2009), "A four-cylinder VN was developed for export markets and utilised a 2.0-litre version of the Family II engine (similar to the JE Camira), fitted with a Bosch Motronic EFI system. To suit the Commodore application the 2.0-litre motor was mounted conventionally (north/south), driving the rear wheels through a Getrag 5-speed manual or Aisin Warner 4-speed automatic." The specifications table lists the engine as the 20SE version producing 83 kW (111 hp) and 169 N⋅m (125 lb⋅ft). The transmissions were the Getrag R25 manual or Aisin Warner 03-71L automatic.
VP: as per Bebbington (2009), "For some export markets, VP was powered by an Opel Dual-Ram 2.6-litre 6-cylinder engine, mated to an Opel 4-speed automatic (4L30-E)." The specifications table lists the engine as the C26NE version producing 110 kW (150 hp) and 220 N⋅m (160 lb⋅ft).
VR: as per VP.
VS: as per Bebbington (2009), "Export VS models featured an Opel-sourced 2.5-litre quad-cam V6, similar to late YE Calibra and new JR Vectra. It was mated to GM's 4L30-E automatic transmission." The specifications table lists the engine as the X25XE version producing 125 kW (168 hp) and 227 N⋅m (167 lb⋅ft).
VL and VN Commodores were sold (from memory) in Malaysia, Singapore, and Thailand as Holdens and probably Opels. I am not sure about VPs, but VRs and VSs were sold in Singapore and Malaysia (see here). I believe Opel Calais models began sales in 1994 [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11] and these were based on the VR series. This would correlate with page 13 of MacKenzie, Angus, ed. (1995). "Calais' Singapore Sting". Wheels. Sydney, New South Wales: ACP Syme Magazines. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help), which states:
Holden has followed the lead set by Ford with its new Fairmonts and given Calais the same nose treatment as its upscale long wheelbase models. But you won't be seeing it in your local Holden dealerships — yet.
This car is the new 2.6 litre Opel engined Calais destined for Singapore and Malaysia, where Holden currently sells about 40 per month. This is despite a price tag in Singapore of a mere $200,000 thanks to tariffs, taxes and a mandatory 'certificate of entitlement' which costs $100,000 per car. In Malaysia the Calais is a steal at $76,000. The simple but effective make-over involved fitting a Statesman bonnet with integral grille, and a Statesman front bumper.
Note, the January 1995 issues would have been published in December 1994. There is also no reference to an "Opel Calais" in the above magazine excerpt and the accompanying image shows a short-wheelbase VR sedan (i.e. Commodore/Calais) with VR Statesman front-end. The magazine image clearly shows the VR series amber bumper-mounted front indicator lamps and VR Holden lion logo as well (compare the logos of Holden VR and VS Statesman). This Holden badging is confusing because the Malaysian used car advertisement above clearly shows it bagded as an Opel (as do these Malaysian 1997 Opel Calais images, VS-based with 2.6-litre inline-six, clear front indicator lenses, and VS Caprice (not Statesman) front-end). Holden VS II models were introduced in 1996, so one would presume this 1997 Opel is of VS II vintage. According to your edit here at Holden VS Commodore, the 2.5-litre V6 replaced the the 2.6-litre inline-six in "summer of 1996". Do you have a source for that, it's just that this is the first I have heard of the X25XE being fitted from the Series II onwards in 1996 (the Bebbington book just states the VS in general as receiving the 2.5-litre). See also, Opel Calais at Red Book Malaysia, 1995, 1996 and 1997 models are all said to be fitted with the 2.6-litre Opel inline-six. Red Book Singapore does not list this model.
The last of the Singapore models were cancelled and ended up going to New Zealand as the "Holden Commodore Royale". While the VS series sedan ended production in 1997, the Royale was sold with 1998 compliance plates (all online advertisements that I have seen for the Royale are 1998 models). See: Holden Royale for more information.
Amazing, that is a lot more info than I had even hoped for. I obviously based my edits off of what was stated in other articles, where use of the 2.5 in the VSII was directly mentioned while 2.6 fitment was quoted in the VS article. I have nothing else to go by and don't know if this is correct, I am just trying to bring various wikipages into line. The idea that the change occurred along with the VS facelift is nothing but an assumption, sorry. Meanwhile, Australian Vectra assembly apparently began in 1998 which would help making the X25XE available. And lastly, according to various sources Opel's 2.6 litre inline six stopped being used by Opel in December 1993, while the X25XE made its debut in early 1994 (Omega B), replacing the similar C25XE which seems to have first appeared in March 1993. I would like to know precisely when Holden switched between the inline 2.6 and the V-form 2.5. ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 06:51, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Found a bit more on the NZ Royale at Red Book. Red Book New Zealand only lists the VS Royale as a 1998 model (backing up my assumption above). It also lists a release date of "August 1997", most likely being the date of manufacture. Incidentally, August 1997 was the last date of VS Commodore sedan production before being replace by the VT. Since the Royales were bound for Singapore (likely as "Opel Calais") but were cancelled, my guess is that Holden needed some time to work out what to do with them and it was later decided to dispose of them in NZ and compliance them as 1998 models with some small changes. Note that the NZ Royale has the VS II Caprice front-end. Based on used car advertisements in Malaysia, only in 1997 was the Opel Calais upgraded to the VS II Caprice front-end (see example), 1994, 1995 and 1996 model all tend use the 1994 VR Statesman front-end styling (with amber front indicators), despite the 1995 VS Statesman being updated with clear lenses. The NZ Royales look identical to the 1997 Opel Calais, except the Holden lion logo was attached the bonnet, and the Opel badges on the wheel centre caps, steering wheel, and rear-end were replaced with the Holden logo. "HOLDEN" and "Royale" badging were also added to the rear, and the rectangular side indicator lamps (as per Australian-spec VR, VS) were replaced with the elliptical ones found on regular Australian/NZ-bound VS II. Too much Australia-centric detail for you? Lastly, based on my observation, all Opel Calais and NZ Royales utlise the alloy wheels from the Holden VR and VR II Calais, also used by the VS and VS II Berlina. I think I'm done with my overly-detailed original research now!
One more thing: all references to the Opel Calais list it with the 2.6-litre (2,594 cc) Opel inline-six (even the 1997 models), while all NZ Royales (built August 1997) seem to be fitted with the 2.5-litre (2,498 cc) Opel V6. Maybe Singapore didn't want the 2.5s for some reason? OSX (talk • contributions) 09:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mysterious indeed. Maybe supplies of the 2.6 had simply dried up, since it had been out of use in Germany for nearly four years when the NZ Royales were first built. Not too much, I want more! I have always been interested in poverty-spec and under-engined versions like the Greece-only Lancia Delta 1.1 and 1.8 litre Volvo 200-series, so the Camira-engined Commodore is very exciting to me. I am sure that the people who made the decision concerning which engine to use in Singaporean export models have themselves long forgotten the whys and wherefores. Someone (=you) should write a book on export market Australian cars, I find it a fascinating topic. With an extra chapter on GM and Ford in Southeast Asia... check out the Bedford Harimau, for instance.
I wonder if Singapore's emissions controls would have anything to do with the choice of a different engine? They may then simply have been cancelled because of a failing market in the wake of the Asian economic crisis. ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 19:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, link rot is terrible thing. Make sure you archive things that may be useful later but are unlikely to hang around—eBay advertisements don't last long: Bedford Harimau is now on Flickr.
The 1997 Asian financial crisis sounds reasonable to me (I'm not sure why that did not click originally). "Beginning in July 1997, and raised fears of a worldwide economic meltdown due to financial contagion." Production of the NZ Royales occurred one month later in August. When I emailed Holden in 2009, the Holden New Zealand spokesperson said, "Our understanding is the cars were a cancelled Singapore order which could not be sold in Australia but where ok to sell in NZ". You can read the full response at Talk:Holden Royale#Email from Holden.
If you want a fantastic book on non-export Holdens, then Terry Bebbington's book is a must have. It's without a doubt the best book of its kind on Holdens around (and many have been published). Terry is an occasional editor here as well (as Terrybebb). Another one is Heart of the Lion: The 50 Year History of Australia's Holden (John Wright, 1998), although this one is more on the history of the company and not a history of individual models.
You have probably heard of the Mazda Roadpacer, but are you aware of the Isuzu Statesman? Ford-badged Mazdas were also an Australian project as well I think—by Ford Motor Design Center Asia Pacific in Melbourne. This is the only case of badge engineering that has worked as far as I know [12], [13], [14]. The Ford versions often used to outsell the Mazda donor model here in Australia and the same translated worldwide with the Ford Escape and Mazda Tribute. For some reason the Ford-badged Mazdas just looked natural as Fords—something that the Toyota Lexcen just could not pull off (although it is a favourite of mine thanks to its peculiarity). OSX (talk • contributions) 09:12, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome work! That's very nice of Holden to respond (and so quickly), I cannot imagine the same being done by a US manufacturer. But then again, I have never tried. Looove the Isuzu Statesman, but I always preferred the under-engined Roadpacer. I also remember reading about Singapore's COE system for registering cars, and during 1997-1998 the prices dropped like a brick as new car sales were drying up. According to this site, a Category 4 COE (above two litres) reached a peak of S$75,500 in August 1997 and had dropped to S$28,008 in March 1998. These costs are (a usually somewhat delayed) indicator of new car sales. ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃ (talk) 22:49, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"An interesting introduction was the fitting of Holden's 1.9litre [sic] "Starfire" four cylinder"?
AFAIK the Holden 1.9 litre was called the "Starfire", so why the sic? I suspect it is probably someone who mistakenly thinks litre is spelt liter. Can I/someone remove the sic? or is there a real reason for it being there that I don't understand? Arjayay (talk) 15:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can design an encyclopedia around an incompetent bot. Even if it wasn't in the original, MOS:QUOTE allows the insertion of spaces into quotations. As written, it can be misunderstood that there is a fundamental error that the (sic) is trying to draw attention to, questioning the validity of the whole statement. I can understand the (sic) after McPherson (should be MacPherson), but this one is going. - Arjayay (talk) 08:42, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I placed the "[sic]" in there to show that the lack of space between litre was not my error. If we are quoting text, then shouldn't we be quoting exactly as it was written? Changing the text to suit one's self seems to defeat the purpose of quoting it. OSX (talk • contributions) 08:51, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it was changing the text, I would totally agree with you; but as stated above MOS:QUOTE allows the insertion of spaces into quotations. I read the (sic) and wondered what error you were trying to point out, so checked out the "Starfire", only to find there wasn't an error. If you have a real concern about the space, we can remove it, but not add the (sic), so as not to confuse anyone else (except possibly the bot). Arjayay (talk) 09:17, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I see (now) the point of putting '[sic]' in the quote. However, it will probably confuse more people than it will help. In a similar vein, Chris added a ton of {{typo}} macros but these look like a warning that this is a typo to be fixed when it really means that this is a deliberate mistake in the source that looks like a typo but really isn't. Perhaps the {{Not a typo}} macro would be better because it stops bots, is clear to real life editors and doesn't show up at all for readers. Stepho talk
That would be the best solution. But as a professional programmer, I know that getting it right for all combinations isn't as easy as it sounds. Still worth asking for though. Stepho talk10:36, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To the editors that want to make the infobox show 1978–2017 for the production dates: It's been mentioned in the press that the Holden will cease production in 2017. However, this may or may not be changed in the next few years. Perhaps the government will bail them out - or perhaps not. Perhaps GM will change its mind - or perhaps not. Perhaps the Commodore will be designed here but made overseas - or perhaps not. Large corporations have a history of changing the details of announcements. We don't know what will actually happen in 2017 and therefore we can not set the end of production date yet. WP:CRYSTALBALL explains this. Stepho talk02:23, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Beware that anything mentioned about its replacement is still speculation. The best we can say is "there is speculation that blah-blah-blah". Actually, that Buick design (which the reference mildly implies had Holden input) isn't bad looking - except for the cheesy US style grill. Stepho talk23:45, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you reread crystalball " anticipated events must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred. It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced." Everything I put in was reffed. Greglocock (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The policy isn't as clear cut as I'd like but I take the opening sentence "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation" as a good summation. Point 5 also says "Wikipedia is not a collection of product announcements and rumors." The reference that you gave made a lot of predictions but even whether it would be a 4 or a V6 was left unanswered ("Holden insiders are now fighting to make a V6 available as an option on the future Commodore"). I've assumed good faith on your part but even if the CEO of Holden made public statements about the next Commodore, there is still a good chance that Holden will make major deviations from its plan. For example, perhaps the Chinese plant gets delayed a year (earthquake, economic disasters, etc) and the Australian plant is forced to continue making the VF for another year. Or maybe a Thai factory will be used instead. Will it be a 4, V6 or V8? Will it be a hybrid? Will it be a sedan only (as the article said) or will the wagon return? All of these can change in the next 3+ years. Anything we write will require weasel words such as "speculate", "plan", "intend", "possibility" and "might have". Stepho talk14:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Chrysler have just delayed the launch of a vehicle by several months due to transmission issues. Ford has delayed launch of the F150 by 3 months due to aluminum. If we have to wait for a vehicle to be actually launched into the marketplace before it can be discussed then you will have a lot of annoyed editors and have reduced the usefulness of wiki even further. As an example the Volt had an article right from the first idiotic showcar onwards, so for 4 years virtually the entire article was crystalball by your definition. So at what point does scuttlebutt and join-the-dots commentary from reliable sources become an acceptable basis for part of an article? Greglocock (talk) 21:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If the company has made an announcement, then it should be included IMO (if they change their mind later on, then so be it). If Fairfax or any other media outlet has published insider info or published their own wild speculation, steer clear. OSX (talk • contributions) 22:38, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If Holden makes an announcement, then yes, that carries a certain amount of weight. They may well change their minds but, like you said, we can always change the article again. I reluctantly conceded that point, as long as it is made clear that the announcement is for the intent, rather than a concrete fact.
However, speculation by magazines based on leaked information from an insider (ie no proof and lots of guessing) is more misleading than reporting facts. We need to be very careful of our sources. WP is already laughed at by most serious researchers - I prefer to work towards making its reputation for accuracy better, not worse. Don't forget that we are not a newspaper - we can always play the wait and see game. Stepho talk05:50, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, as I have been pointing out, we won't know which why it will go until it actually happens. That's a good reference to prove the point. Stepho talk15:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is a citation by Tuckey which suggests that the Holden VB Commodore inspired Opel to make a similar car. I don't know if it's true or not, but I have a few minor concerns with the statement as it currently stands. While both the Holden and the South African Chevrolet Commodore made it to market first, the Germans did show the Opel Commodore in Frankfurt 1977. I don't know, it is indeed possible that Opel had planned on not having a car in the narrow gap between the Senator and the Rekord, but the Tuckey reference seems problematic to me as its wording also suggests that the Germans adopted the Commodore nameplate from Holden (Opel later picked up the bastard child to fit between its Rekord and Senator on the European market and named it – guess what? – Commodore) when they had been using it since February 1967. Again, the European Commodore/Viceroy may very well have come about as a result of Australian input, but I find the Tuckey reference and its implications rather dubious.@OSX:@Stepho-wrs:
Sorry but anything I say about this would only be educated guesses. Holden taking bits from the Senator and Rekord are well documented. The reverse process is very much hush-hush. I suspect the Europeans didn't want to admit to us Aussies helping out. Stepho talk10:25, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I regard Tuckey as an unreliable narrator. I know he has printed distorted material in Wheels. Having worked with both Opel and Holden in the eighties I would rate the probability of Opel accepting any input from anybody else as slightly above zero, and Holden's input would be even less welcome. Greglocock (talk) 11:26, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This has been discussed before: User talk:OSX/Archive 5#Opel Commodore vs Holden Commodore. I agree that it may not actually be true, but it was the only source I could find at the time that accounted for the Rekord/Senator hybrid model. Maybe Holden picked the name for the "Commodore C"/VB model first, taking inspiration from Opel's previous Commodore A and B models. I would not at all be surprised if Tuckey went a bit overboard with his writing. It wouldn't be the first time an automotive author has refused to let the truth get in the way of a good narrative.
I have reposted the full quotes from the Tuckey book below: Tuckey, Bill (1999). Commodore Lion King: Celebrating 21 Years. Middle Park, Victoria: Quil Visual Communications. ISBN0-646-38231-4.:
"it is know that in late 1974, the first drawings of the Rekord four-cylinder were at Fishermans Bend (the longer six-cylinder Senator version was a little further down the track)."
"The [Holden] engineers soon found that slotting the 3.3-litre six [Red motor] into the Rekord engine bay required more than a shoehorn. It needed a large bonnet bulge, and when that was added to the clay [model], everyone shook their heads. The board decided it had to send into Opel a study team strong on what the industry call 'packaging' – fitting all the bits into a tightly-drawn and styled space with simultaneous reference to making the whole thing simpler (and thus cheaper) to make and assemble (and these days to repair)."
"In early 1975 the first [Holden] design team headed for Germany. It included a young engineering draftsman called Ray Grigg – who would be named VB project manager but at that stage had responsibility for body packaging".
"Says Grigg: "We reviewed the package layouts of the all-new V-cars Opel were designing. My task was to see how the Holden L6 and V8 engines and transmissions could be installed into this initial (Rekord) package. After about three weeks and the study of different alternatives it became obvious that our L6 engine could not fit." That was when they discovered Opel were working on another V-car model, to be called Senator and to replace the existing Diplomat, with a much longer nose (and longer rear end) that offered the chance to slot in the local six and V8. Grigg arranged for Opel's fibreglass Rekord model to be shipped to Australia, and from that styling built up a clay model that was essentially the Rekord with the Senator nose job. It was so well proportioned that Opel later picked up the bastard child to fit between its Rekord and Senator on the European market and named it – guess what? – Commodore. When the rest of the team returned to Australia, Grigg [...] stayed on to finalise the engineering packaging. Grigg came back with the drawing in November [1975].
"[Grigg] now says there wasn't any real resistance within Opel to what Holden wanted to do with their design. "I think that initially they tried to insist we maintain the Opel two-model strategy, but we had completed sufficient package layouts within the first month of being on-site to indicate that this was not possible, and we had to look for alternatives."
"Gradually emerging was the fact that fitting the local drive train would incur a significant engineering cost. The Senator engine bay had been designed to take a six, but a V8 wouldn't fit, unless the recirculating-ball steering system was replaced by a rack-and-pinion (R&P) setup across the firewall to get it behind the V8."
"There was another [market research] clinic in March 1977 to test names. [...] They tried Kingswood II, Commodore, Torana, Cutlass, Senator, Delta and others, and while Commodore wasn't top of pile, it polled strongly – and anyway, that's what most Holden insiders were already calling it." — Reading between the lines, this suggests that Opel had called its Rekord-Senator hybrid "Commodore" first. As by March 1977, I'm sure Opel had determined that its car (to be released in late 1977) would be called "Commodore".
Thanks! And yes, I agree that the use of the Commodore name by Holden insiders implies that that was what Opel called such a model already. I have been trying to make some sense of the incredible confusion of models built by Daewoo based on the Rekord E, hence my interest. Mr.choppers | ✎ 06:31, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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the article about the Ute was removed in favour of a redirect to this page, with the argument of merging it into this page.
this has obviously not happened, and was done with barely any support for it (agreement of 2 people), after an earlier, more active discussion with inconclusive result on this.
article restored. should you disagree with the decision you can discuss it in its talk page and add its information into this page, but please do not delete it after only 3 days and of discussion again. TheFIST (talk) 12:19, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The reference https://www.caradvice.com.au/812851/holden-commodore-retired/ says 'The company has confirmed it will continue to sell MY19 Commodore and MY19 Astra variants to private buyers through 2020, "albeit with diminishing model availability as part of an orderly runout". The facelifted MY20 Commodore, confirmed last week, is available to fleet buyers right now.' The other references say that sales will continue in 2020 but don't mention the actual end of production. Note that my previous edit was based on a mistaken reading of a 2017 reference (I didn't check the date properly), so I'd like to check a bit more thoroughly this time. Stepho talk11:15, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article has just flipped from ending in 2019 to ending in 2020. Does any know the actual end of production date? Note that this will be different to the end of sales date. Stepho talk07:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article says "The last Commodore - the last Holden vehicle to be manufactured in Australia - rolled off the line at the Elizabeth plant on 20 October 2017." Yet the sales table says that sales continued until at least 2019 (2020 data obviously not added yet). I can't see Holden stockpiling 2 or 3 years worth of cars. So, was the ZB made elsewhere? Stepho talk21:05, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Can anyone with insider knowledge talk about how long the 2017 last V8 Holdens will continue to run at Buthurst, I believe this years Holden which won was a 2017 private entry an incredible feat beating a new 2021 Mustang — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:2D57:7200:8520:D4E2:8DC5:2671 (talk) 14:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There's been too much back and forth editing of the lead image lately. Ignoring some bad choices of glary images, the main points have been:
The ZB is the latest model. WP:CARPIX clearly says that this is not a deciding point (neither for, nor against).
The ZB is not a "real" Commodore because it is a rebadged Opel. But so was the original VB. Both had some local redesign (although the VB had significantly more). At the end of the day it was sold by Holden with the Commodore badge and that's what it says on owner's license papers.
The ZB is not a "real" Commodore because it was built overseas, not in Australia. So?
The ZB is not a "real" Commodore because it was not popular (possibly the straw that broke Holden's back?). Again, WP:CARPIX does not allow this as a deciding point (neither for, nor against).
I prefer the VF image but that is purely a personal preference. I can see points for either image and can see no valid points for removing either image. Stepho talk00:36, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with all of the above, but I would like to bring up an additional point from WP:CARPIX: "However, the image must be representative; low-volume, obscure/unusual, or otherwise unrepresentative variants are generally not preferred for the lead infobox image." I would argue that a German-built, front-wheel drive car is not very representative of a nameplate which was for nearly forty years a rear-wheel drive car, built in Australia. I don't think I am guilty of Australian jingoism either. That said, I don't much care for the VF image quality (wide angle lens, glare, somewhat busy background, distractingly tight crop). For now I dropped a picture of a VX wagon (why are they all red?), but there are probably even better pics of some other generation. Mr.choppers | ✎ 01:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given the frequent edits (mostly from IPs) trying to put the VF image as the lead image, I think it's not worth it to keep the ZB image on top and resisting any changes. As Stepho said, the image quality is about the same. Andra Febrian (talk) 02:04, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given a free choice (king for a day), I would choose the VB. But since most youngsters think the VB is a contemporary of the Model T, a later model like the VF is fine. That particular image of the VX is a most unflattering image (looks like a teeny-weeny bonnet and a big ass) but is otherwise okay. I personally would not choose the ZB - as Mr Choppers said, single generation of FWD vs 4 decades of RWD. But neither would I bump an existing ZB image off. While not my personal choice, the ZB has just as much right to be there as any other model. If a ZB image is bumped with the only reason given as "it's not a real Commodore" then I would have no trouble restoring it. Stepho talk05:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is that "it's not a real Commodore" has essentially been the reason behind random IP editors removing the ZB image. As i've constantly stated before - it's simply a personal, subjective justification that verges on weird patriotism (simply because it's more a german model as opposed to being "australian", despite various generations before also having opel underpinnings). As it stands, the ZB image is one of the best commodore images we have - high res, clear, good crop, car is in mint condition, good framing, almost perfect lighting etc.
FWD as opposed to RWD doesn't seem to be a very strong justification either. Like many other car models, it's simply a modernisation of its powertrain that probably would've happened even if it wasn't an opel sourced model. That's like arguing that the infobox image of the Toyota Corolla article isn't representative because it's a hybrid and most Corolla generations have been petrol only. Not very compelling Democfest (talk) 11:23, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On occasion, IPs are actually right. It's rare, but it happens. The final generation is not representative because the Holden Commodore was an RWD Aussie car (with an inline-six or a V8). The ZB was also a flop in the market, and was on sale for a very short period and built in very small numbers (12,000 out of 2,300,000 Commodores). FWIW, I am in no way an Australian patriot. As for the Corolla, I recommend reading WP:WHATABOUTX. Yes, it's a pretty good photo, but it's unrepresentative of the Commodore and as such is inappropriate for the main infobox.
So far I see Stepho and Andra Febrian weakly opposed to the ZB, me firmly opposed, and Democfest in favor. And, apparently, countless ips are opposed to the ZB as well. At this stage, I see a consensus against the ZB but I think it would be best for us to provide some options and choose a picture. Does anyone have the energy to go through the myriad iterations of the Commodore to find the best picture? Mr.choppers | ✎ 02:04, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, bringing powertrains into the discussion hardly seems compelling or a real justification for getting rid of the ZB image. "It's FWD as opposed to RWD". Okay, so what? Different generations of a model inevitably undergo dramatic changes to underpinnings, styling, powertrains, manufacturing etc etc. That's why they're different generations - you'd be hard pressed to find a mainstream model that is more or less the same as it was 30 years ago. It's a bit like saying "the ZB Commodore is not representative because it has LED lights as opposed to having incandescent ones like the previous generations". Seems absurd doesn't it? Stepho has already summed up it really well for the other points of popularity and "country of origin" (if that's even a thing for the messy intertwined world of the car industry). I'd make a bet that we would not be having this conversation if the ZB had different styling and was manufactured in Australia
1 in favour, 1 opposed, 1 slightly opposed, and 1 fence sitter (given the options available) hardly seems like a clear consensus at the moment Democfest (talk) 05:20, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Democfest, you do not seem to be seriously engaged in conversation here. You know full well that all of us are aware that the Commodore line was developed using Opel designs. The difference between being partially developed in Australia and built there, versus being a slapdash rebadge à la the Holden Astra or the Jackaroo is significant. The difference between forty years of RWD and two years of FWD is of considerably more significance than lights. The fact that it sold in very small numbers (for a Commodore) and had a very short lifespan is significant. Your bet regarding what would happen if the ZB was built in Australia is probably true: there are several reasons why the ZB falls short of being representative of the Commodore as per the guidelines; if you any one or two of those reasons were removed then the ZB would be an OK choice. Mr.choppers | ✎ 00:36, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Your bet regarding what would happen if the ZB was built in Australia is probably true"
So are you admitting that disdain for the ZB as a Commodore simply all boils down to surface-level emotional reasoning? Hypothetically, if the ZB was still the exact same car underneath; fully designed, engineered and conceived all by Opel, with the exact same sales figures, BUT it was built in Australia, then THAT would make it representative of the Commodore? In essence, the only critieria for being a real Commodore is that it has to screwed together in Australia? Take a korean/japanese/german car, stick the doors on in Australia and voila! An Aussie car! - Democfest (talk) 05:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which describes the typical knock-down kits that many early Australian cars where made from (especially Japanese cars from the 1960s), with a few local bits (typically glass, battery and tyres) to avoid import duties because now it's a "local" car. Also remember that many famous, popular "Australian" cars were originally variations of foreign cars - Ford Falcon (XK), Holden Torana#HB, Holden Gemini (which also swapped RWD for FWD), Holden Rodeo, the original Holden Commodore (VB) and even the Holden FX was heavily based on the Chevy "Light Car" project. Also remember that the majority of engines in the Commodore were also American or Japanese derived (253/308 being the only exception that comes to mind). Using foreign design and/or manufacture as criteria is a rabbit hole that you probably don't want to go down.
Choosing one generation out of 40 years is always going to be a bun fight in a jam factory. Personally I would choose the VB as the ancestor of them all but the under 30's crowd will not relate to it and will change it to something in the last 10 years. The ZB was the latest version (appealing to the under 25's who always want the latest version of anything) and is certainly a valid candidate (I reject all "not a real Commodore" arguments, as above) but is hugely unpopular with the majority of over 25's. Which leaves us with one of the later RWD models. The VF wagon image above is a perfectly fine image, about as representative as we will ever get across 42 years of production and among the last of the models that were popular and had the same basic driveline (RWD with a 6-cyl or V8 option) as most of the Commodore's production life. The VF gets my vote, with the ZB being my second choice. Stepho talk07:33, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree. The thing is, i'm not strictly opposed to having a non ZB image, it's just that the ZB image is one of the best available images of a commodore that we have at the moment. It's crisp, clear, high res, perfect angle, good lighting, non-glary, not too reflective, car is in pristine condition. The VF images are decent but they still don't hold up to the ZB image we have; case in point, the VF wagon image is awkwardly and overly cropped and it's a tad too reflective Democfest (talk) 09:26, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
are you admitting that disdain for the ZB as a Commodore simply all boils down to surface-level emotional reasoning - I never said nor have I in any way implied that I dislike the ZB (why should I - I come from an Opel-owning family, I have never been to Australia, and I love small FWD cars - in no way a Commodore dude). I am trying to explain to you in the simplest way possible that while one strike against the ZB would not be enough for exclusion, two might, and three strikes certainly should. And yes, if you could hypothetically remove one of the reasons, then it would affect the outcome. But you can't.
Using foreign design and/or manufacture as criteria is a rabbit hole that you probably don't want to go down. - Umm, yes, there is still a gradation between CBU, SKD, CKD, and locally built. No one is arguing that the Commodore line wasn't based on mostly German engineering, that's a straw man, but there is a clear distinction between the origin of the previous generations and the last one. If not, Holden's PR department wouldn't have had to stay so busy pushing pieces like this and this.
Anyhow, I am going to create a new, more productive section with some positive options instead of just discussing why the ZB is unsuitable. My main problem is that all photos of Commodores seem to be taken in front of twenty other Holdens, and that there are hundreds of Commodore subcategories in the Commons. Mr.choppers | ✎ 00:33, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
These "strikes" that you talk about are really superficial and hold no substantial weight.
Manufactured overseas - so what? Cars are manufactured everywhere - it rarely affects the identity. I find it really hard to believe that having the steering wheel put on by an Australian instead of a German would suddenly change its Commodore-ness. I'll quote Jeremy Clarkson on this point "The Nissan Micra comes in boxes from Japan and they put one screw in it and then call it British"
FWD vs RWD - okay, they changed the powertrain. The Toyota Corolla has only been a hybrid for the latest 2 generations, vs the previous 10 petrol generations. Is the latest Corolla not representative of the Corolla lineup then?
The ONLY somewhat viable point being made is that it's a full rebadge. But again, this seems like an odd hill to die on. Rebadges are not black and white - they're of varying degrees. Yes, the ZB is the "most rebadged" but then the first gen commodore was also not far behind in this regard, being an Opel Rekord with a few bits changed on it. How far do we go with this? I'm sure you know there is no such thing as a "pure" car, especially not with modern GM models. Democfest (talk) 02:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Democfest, as I made clear above: "there is still a gradation between CBU, SKD, CKD, and locally built." Clarkson is in no way a dependable source on anything - I suggest you enjoy him as entertainment only. The Micra had significant British/European parts content, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to circumvent the restrictions on Japanese imports. In 2018, Sunderland-built cars had 15% British parts and the majority of the remainder came from Europe.[15]. In 2017, British manufacturers overall sourced 44% of their parts locally (by value).[16] I don't know the entire history of the rules which define "Australian-made", but between 1975 and 1987 a manufacturer had to have 85 percent local content to avoid steep tariffs.[17].
FWD v RWD - rear-wheel drive was always a large part of what defined the Commodore - hence all the outrage. A good analogy is when the Ford Probe was going to be called a Mustang and the company had to reverse course, or all the times GM have threatened to make an FWD Camaro. While Corollas do usually have engines of some sort, most Corolla owners don't really care what's under the hood as long as it is quiet and reliable (sporty iterations excluded). No Toyota fanbois ever raised their battle flags over the addition of a hybrid system, because it doesn't in any way diminish its Corolla-ness. (side note to preempt accusations of being anti-Japanese/anti-Toyota: I am the proud owner of a privately imported JDM Toyota which took endless trouble to register in my state)
Fifth-gen is the only rebadge. The original Commodore had a different front end (Senator grafted to a Rekord), an entirely different, locally built drivetrain and a locally developed bodyshell with significant additional strengthening. All of this to meet that 85 percent local parts requirement and to make it suitable for local conditions. It simply cannot be compared to shipping over an Insignia and uncapping the Araldite.
Lastly, you seem to have passed by the ZB's abbreviated life span and utter failure in the market - it's not exactly a rarity, but its sales numbers are orders of magnitude smaller than the first four generations. Mr.choppers | ✎ 03:43, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why the ZB is the worst choice as a representative of the collective Holden Commodore model line at the top of this article
Whether the ZB is a "real" Holden Commodore is an irrelevant distraction. The real issue is whether it makes a good rep for the Holden Commodore line at the top of the page. I hold that it is the least representative and worst choice because:
1. All the Holden Commodores except the last were manufactured by Holden. We could also add they had significant, and over time, increasing Holden designed modifications, culminating in the Holden developed zeta platforms 1 and 2 of the VE and VF. The ZB was manufactured in Germany by the then GM subsidiary Opel.
2. All the Holden made Commodores were rear-wheel drive. The ZB had a very different architecture because it was, uniquely among the Commodores, a front-wheel drive vehicle.
3. All the Holden made Commodores, including the last, sold in large numbers by Australian domestic market standards and became a common sight on Australian roads. Even the Holden made VF remains a relatively common sight despite its relatively disappointing sales compared to earlier models. The last Commodore, the Opel made ZB, was a sales disaster in its three years of 2018, 2019, 2020. The ZB is barely visible on Australian roads less than two years after it was cancelled. Its spectacular sales failure led to the termination of the Holden brand.
How such an unrepresentative and unpopular vehicle like the ZB Commodore be thought to be appropriate for the top of this article as a representative the entire Holden Commodore model lineup, I cannot imagine except as a very bad joke. Any other Holden Commodore model would be a vastly superior choice to the ZB for the above reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.63.186.170 (talk • contribs)
So, your argument boils down to 1) not made by Holden 2) FWD and 3) unpopular. The first and second arguments have no weight whatsoever (see above section, also see many other long lived cars that changed from RWD to FWD - eg Toyota Corolla, Chevy Nova, Ford Escort). The third argument has some weight - it was indeed unpopular and has a lousy resale vale (I've heard it's actually a decent car - just not a V8 RWD type of car that people expected). Yet, at the end of the day it is sold as a "Holden Commodore" and therefore it is a valid candidate.
Also be aware that it is considered bad manners to change something in the article while it is being discussed on the talk page. For this reason I reverted you change. After the discussion is finished then the article will reflect the consensus formed. You are welcome to join the existing discussion in the section just above this one. Stepho talk04:27, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of FWD/RWD or location of manufacture, the ZB is mechanically almost 100% an Insignia. Previous Commodore models has varying degrees of Opel parts but never nearly identical. It can be said that the ZB is another vehicle (based on the fact that it came straight from the Insignia lineage, regardless of technical specs), but with the Commodore name slapped on it.
By Wikipedia perspective, the fact that Holden Commodore (ZB) is not a standalone article further demonstrates its insignificance and its high level of similarity to the donor vehicle.
Another unconventional argument is by asking Google. I did a test by changing my Google region to the United States and searched for "Holden Commodore". Without scrolling, it showed 6 VFs, 3 VEs and 1 ZB (thank Wikipedia for the latter). Searching with Australia as my region gets me 4 VFs, 3 VEs, 1 VT and 1 ZB (again, from WP). I tried searching "Holden" and all I got was mostly VFs.
Rebadging is a very common practice in the automotive industry. A good chunk of modern cars (if not a majority) are rebadged or share the same underpinnings in some shape or form, ESPECIALLY with GM models. Yes, the ZB is more rebadged than previous iterations, but it still doesn't make a very compelling point for why the ZB Commodore isn't a "real" Commodore. The Vauxhall Astra is literally just an Opel with a Vauxhall badge. Would that mean the Vauxhall Astra is not a real Astra? Yet the Astra is one of Vauxhall's most recognised and iconic models.
Your other points of popularity don't seem like a strong justification either. Sales figures and google have never been used as a critieria for what should be used in the infobox Democfest (talk) 09:51, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"i'm not strictly opposed to having a non ZB image, it's just that the ZB image is one of the best available images of a commodore that we have at the moment. It's crisp, clear, high res, perfect angle, good lighting, non-glary, not too reflective, car is in pristine condition. The VF images are decent but they still don't hold up to the ZB image we have; case in point, the VF wagon image is awkwardly and overly cropped and it's a tad too reflective"
The only real line of reasoning i've heard for getting rid of the ZB image is that it "isn't a real Commodore" (no such thing btw) because it's unpopular, FWD and wasn't built in Australia, none of which are strong justifications as discussed further up on this page. Democfest (talk) 00:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fully disagree; those are all strong justifications.
FWD vs RWD - yes, lots of cars have switched from back to front. The difference is that Corollas were RWD for twenty years and FWD for nearly forty years. Holden Gemini was FWD for one gen, RWD for one gen. Thus, either version would be representative. The Commodore was FWD for two years, RWD for forty years. Thus, not representative.
Just a rebadge/import: Democfest says something about the Vauxhall Astra above - all Vauxhall Astras are rebadges. Only the ZB is a rebadged CBU import, all other Commodores have significant local design input and significant local content. Thus, not representative.
Slow selling - it sold at a tenth of the rate of Commodores as a whole. It only lasted two years, whereas previous generations all lasted around ten years. Thus, not representative.
I think the best analogy is the Chevrolet Nova. Nearly twenty years as a RWD American car, and then four years as a rebadged FWD Corolla in the 1980s. The NUMMI Nova simply doesn't fit for the main infobox, even though that's the one I would like in my garage. This discussion is not "do you like the ZB", the discussion concerns whether the ZB is a good representative for the nameplate as a whole.
We're discussing why the ZB is not a suitable model to represent the whole Holden Commodore lineage, not a debate whether it is a "real" Commodore or not. In no way I said it is not a "real" Commodore, when Holden said it is a Commodore then it is. The ZB is not representative because it disrupts the long history/pattern of Commodore models by multiple reasons as discussed.
Comparing it with the Astra is a moot point, Vauxhall never had a standalone model since a long time ago. The Vauxhall Astra is 100% an Opel Astra since the Astra K which was released 31 years ago.
What I'm seeing is, you refused to compromise for exactly one reason: image quality, while dismissing multiple reasons demonstrating that the ZB is not representative. Andra Febrian (talk) 02:31, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
i agree photo quality is not the deciding criterion. The photo quality argument would suggest that a superb photo of the sun would be the lead image for 'stars'. No. Greglocock (talk) 03:36, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, since the ZB is so unpopular, any ZB image will be changed within days by its haters. We will be forever having to protect it and also having to justify our protection of it - which isn't my plan for the rest of my life. Let's just pick a less controversial image and move on. Stepho talk04:22, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree we should pick a less controversial image such as the ones I have tried to change it to of a 2017 SV6 Commodore VF which is entirely uncontroversial and objectively more true as the image being displayed of a "ZB Commodore" is not in a Commodore it is an Opel Insignia and even if it were a Commodore we may as well change it because it is causing unnecessary controversy. DavidMalcolm1212112221 (talk) 22:58, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Stepho's above statement that we should pick a different image I entirely agree with however now he has suddenly changed his mind and decided to spend the rest of his life pointlessly editing the Wikipedia page for an Australian icon to show something considered by most to be sacrilege and once again I must say is objectively incorrect. That image is of an Opel Insignia so why not show a more popular image. I keep being told by Stepho to go to the talk page however the talk page contains nothing but arguments supporting my case. I await your response Stepho. DavidMalcolm1212112221 (talk) 23:01, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your "bulletproof" arguments are actually an emotional argument that is simply not true. The ZB was built, advertised, sold and registered on-road as a Holden Commodore. In every legal sense it is a Holden Commodore. Any changes based on "not a real Commodore" can and will be reverted automatically. This why I reverted you (3 times) - not because I disagree with your choice of image but because your reasoning was so biased and wrong.
As I have said before, any change of image based on "not a real Commodore" is wrong and will therefore be automatically shot down immediately.
Discussion about the best representative model is welcome. Points about "sacrilege" and "spend the rest of his life pointlessly" are just your opinion and are not taken seriously.
Having said that, it is certainly the most unpopular Commodore and there are certainly points to be made about it not being the representative of the previous 4 decades of Commodores based on it's drivetrain (mostly 4 decades of RWD vs a few years of FWD). You can read above to see that the foreign influence is not an issue either way.
The actual image you chose is not bad. The background is a bit more cluttered (ie distracting) than I like but still a reasonable contender. Stepho talk23:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well objectively it is an Opel Insignia the same way as the 2017 Chevrolet SS is a Holden Commodore. It was manufactured in Germany as that and not as a holden commodore. And even if it were a commodore which it isnt, then thats still a poor choice of image because of the prior points made about representation. I would like to suggest an image of the last holden commodore ever produced *as a holden commodore however the images have to be unlicensed. Fortunately I have been to the motor museum in Adelaide and took a photograph of the last Holden. Unfortunately, its not very good. AquaSheepwikip (talk) 23:42, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is the image I took which I do not think is at all good enough for the main image but I'll add it in anyway. An image of the last car produced in Australia, a Holden Commodore SS V Redline, at the National Motor Museum in Birwood SAAquaSheepwikip (talk) 23:51, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You said wait for consensus on talk page. What do you mean by this? Do you disagree now that it is a suitable image? I am not really expecting other people to come out of the woodwork and put in a vote on this. Also you referred me to some BRD thing which suggests to only revert something if it is not an improvement and to revert only when necessary. Why is changing the image to something most people would prefer necessary to be reverted? AquaSheepwikip (talk) 00:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Consensus on the talk page" means exact what it says on the tin - that the various editors with differing opinions discuss things on the talk page, come to some agreement and then we change the article to match. Not all of us are in the same time zone or editing at the same time of day, so we need to wait for the others to make their points. Points under discussion are:
Whether a ZB image is allowed. Comes down to "not a real Commodore" or not. I contend that it is allowed but so wildly unpopular that it is an impractical choice. By the way, the original VB had very slow sales as it was considered a rebadged foreign car and not a real Holden. It took a while to be accepted.
Which image is most representative. Comes down to ZB is the latest (a winner among the younger people for most articles) vs the ZB haters, vs the original VB (loved by us oldsters but a snooze fest for youngsters) vs something late model with RWD. No particular generation is most representative, so it came down to something late RWD but we kind of lost track and forgot about it all.
So, back to selecting an image. Current contenders are:
Holden ZB Commodore, 2018
Holden VF Commodore wagon, 2016
Holden VX Commodore station wagon, 2000
Holden Commodore VF II sedan, 2017
Holden Commodore VR II sedan, 1995
Holden Commodore VH sedan, 1982
Other candidate images are welcome. My choice would be the VF wagon. Clear image, background not too distracting, good angle, reasonably representative (as much as is possible over 4 decades) and reasonably pleasing to the eye. The VF sedan would be a reasonable second choice. Stepho talk00:48, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added two more. Not worried about what any youngsters may possibly think; as an outsider the somewhat older generations are more what I think of when I hear Holden Commodore. My fav is 5 or 6 (if only the shadow of the wing mirror wasn't so long), but I have a feeling there are other gems hiding in the 1.2 trillion subcategories of Commonscat:Holden Commodore. Best, Mr.choppers | ✎ 02:25, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to find quality images of commodores that are public domain, I did try messaging owners on carsales for permission to use their images, hopefully I get some responses. Happy to see we are getting somewhere. DavidMalcolm1212112221 (talk) 02:32, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Might be worth including some rationale with your choice. I (for one) do not believe that a great quality photo of an unrecognizable car is a better choice than a worse photo of a more representative car. I would say the VF is fine, as it is the the last of the Commodores built in Oz, but HQ is the one I'd choose just because it is an icon. The only version I worked on professionally was the VN. Nice enough when new, but it fell apart quite quickly. Greglocock (talk) 03:12, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We've let this one go stale (that's a point against us) and MrDavr has decided to change it unilaterally to a purple VF. The purple image isn't too bad except for a man's head sticking out the roof like some type of macabre taxi sign - see WP:CARPIX for warning about background objects sticking up.
So far we've had MrDavr propose the red VF sedan, myself say that it is okay as my second choice, DavidMacolm voting for it and nobody decidedly against it. Shall we agree on the red VF sedan and move on to more constructive work? Stepho talk08:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Well it should be. Many, many dead/unreliable links. The History section is nearly entirely unsourced. However, I did notice that the generation sections (eg #VS (1995–1997)) were nearly fully sourced (however, are the sources reliable? No. Arotparaarms, could you read the GA criteria please? I realised you randomly listed Chevrolet Volt (first generation) as a GA when I nominated it without even taking a look. Please take some time. 750h+ (talk) 00:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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