Talk:Cheltenham/Archive 1

Archive 1

Article name

Somebody moved this to Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, I have moved it back because:

1. Almost all of the links to "Cheltenham" go to the town in England [1].
2. Cheltenham in England is much larger than all of the other places called Cheltenham, and a precedent for this has already been set at Exeter, York etc

G-Man 19:46, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Internationally Known?

The private schools may well be, but Pate's always seems to get better exam results. And it's free! Vanky 20:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

That might be because one lets people in on ability, the other on financial ability. However, sorry to disappoint you old Patesian, but it's Cheltenham Ladies College and Cheltenham College which are the best known. Of course, I think it should be Cleeve School because I went there :) --kingboyk 20:40, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

lol :-) That seems entirely fair, but I'm just a tad concerned about how far one can prove this sort of thing... Vanky 13:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it could be proved or not. I guess a survey of national and international newspaper coverage of the time would give some indication, but I don't have the time for that right now. Speaking from experience (irrelevant to the article but fine for the Talk page) having travelled a lot, I get one of 3 reactions when I say I'm from Cheltenham: 1) the most usual - a blank stare 2) oh the Gold Cup town 3) Cheltenham Ladies College.

Is this just some friendly banter or do you have any specific improvement in mind? If you do, let's discuss it here or just go ahead and do it - I don't claim any ownership of the article you know! I will however edit any attempt to push claims that Cheltenham == Pates Grammar School or to promote it beyond it's current mention - not that you would do that, of course :) Indeed, I think the article is of a higher quality than when I started with it but is still far from perfect, so please get stuck in. --kingboyk 13:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Bit of both really- I wouldn't want to push anything beyond what is enyclopaedic. It's just that we must be careful when making apparantly unsubstantiated claims... From personal experience, people do seem to know about the ladies college, but I don't find it's the same for the boy's college. I've seen people get told off for claims like that...

Anyway- the last time you invited people to be bold & get stuck in, you reverted me :P

Seriously, keep up the good work- I'm always happy to help out with all things cheltenham (and Beatles!) related. Very nice to have made your acquaintance! Vanky 13:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Nah I didn't revert you if you remember right, you reverted me and I went for a compromise :P

You're right about unsourced claims but on the other hand the article was full of em and I think I've made it closer to neutral. I think you may be right too regarding notability...

Cheltenham is famous for it's private schools, most notably Cheltenham College and the Cheltenham Ladies' College; the Cheltenham Gold Cup, the flagship race of British steeplechase horseracing; and the Cheltenham Festival of Literature.

I take it this the paragraph in question? I'll let you open the bidding, let's see what we can come up with.

By the way, do you know much about Apple Films? It's a Beatles related article which needs some work. --kingboyk 13:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll give it a go... I'll also have a look at Apple Films sometime too... So much in my head- need to add a Chomsky quote to the Bill Clinton page whilst I can still remember it.. Apologies for rhe ramblings.. Vanky 14:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, how rude of me - nice to make your acquaintance too! I've edited your edit, without changing much in meaning. It's better than what I had written previously, what do you think? Edit away if it's still not right. --kingboyk 16:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I'm perfectly happy with that, thank you! Let's see what effect the waves of time have on this... Yay teamwork! Vanky 17:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone will come along and zap our work with an infinitely better edit, probably :) Oh well. Good new edit, I'll leave you with the last word for now. I'm surprised there's no article about the Lit Fest, but I've searched through Wikipedia to page 5 of the results and I've found nothing. --kingboyk 17:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Surely this paragraph should include something about Cheltenham's Regency architecture and in particular the Pump Room which is a Grade I listed building where one can still sample the spa waters today. There could probably be a whole section devoted to the architecture of the town. How about mentions too of the fact that Cheltenham College was the setting for the Lindsay Anderson film If... and also that much of the Wendy Craig series Butterflies was filmed in Cheltenham. Dahliarose 09:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Lists of schools

Do we really need a list of schools in Cheltenham? It seems completely pointless and makes the article a prime target for edit wars. I suggest we keep the encyclopedic ones (i.e. the world-renowned ones) and not having what basically amounts to a list of others. StephenHildrey 11:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to agree with you, and that's how I originally wrote it. However, if the schools have blue links I guess they have to be linked to from somewhere. What's the norm? How do other towns handle it? Perhaps the non-renowned ones should be in the See Also list? --kingboyk 14:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, the Grammar School's gone again... I'd like to think that it was the best school in Gloucestershire, in terms of results, unless that doesn't mean anything... Vanky 15:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

It's in the new Schools list, with the text about it being high performing hidden inside a HTML comment. Note that my school isn't on this list at all, so I wasn't acting through any bias :-) Rather, I was persuaded by Stephen Hildrey's argument that only the world famous ones need to be mentioned. Certainly the second slowly building paragraph of namechecks for run of the mill comprehensives (of the sort I went too!) wasn't helpful to the reader...

Perhaps you could work on the new list by adding a sentence for each school, including Pates?

Alternatively, if you want to restore Pates to the main text then go ahead. --kingboyk 16:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Just a general comment- I'd prefer a wider consensus really... Is Cheltenham College really internationally known? Vanky 19:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Vanky, mate, go ahead and move it from the main text if you don't think so! :-) (My only comment would be that internationally known is a bit OTT, I'd settle for nationally known). --kingboyk 12:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC) (Good luck waiting for concensus, but I think for now we have to do the best we can - there's only 3 contributors to this talk page in a year. Another alternative is peer review, but I don't think that's necessary - it seems we can probably agree on having just the ladies college in the main text).

I'd agree with that really. The boy's college is a very average public school, and Pate's may be good, but I doubt that it's famous. Leave just the ladies' college. Vanky 15:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not from Cheltenham and the only one I'd heard of is the Ladies' College. Seeing a list of other schools (most of which are fairly generic school names) doesn't add any value, and only slightly more when they link to more complete pages. There's lots of scope for NN editing here... StephenHildrey 20:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Well we are building a "nice" list of schools now (rolls eyes) :) --kingboyk 03:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Reverend Francis Close has very strong links with Cheltenham. He founded Cheltenham Boys College and after his death the Dean Close Memorial School (shortened to Dean Close School) was founded. He also built the first "free" church in Cheltenham (St. Pauls Church in the St. Pauls area, next to Brunswick Street) If you're going to mention Cheltenham Boys College then you've got to mention Dean Close School too. -- JonRB 09:23, 04 May 2006

That's the problem you see, it causes these never ending debates. Your comment "If you're going to mention Cheltenham Boys College then you've got to mention Dean Close School too" has settled it for me - Ladies College only. It's the only one that the average person on the street (outside Cheltenham) has likely heard of. --kingboyk 08:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. You're probably right - after all, the list of public schools in Cheltenham that people have heard of (in descending order) is definitely Green-Fly, Boys, then DCS. :o) -- JonRB 4 May 2006

Hooray for consensus!! :-) Vanky 12:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Yay! :o) -- JonRB 12:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Guess that the school issue became too contentious. :o) -- JonRB 14:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this education section needs to be expanded to include all schools. Encyclopedias should not make judgments about the quality of schools. The well-known schools could be mentioned in an introductory paragraph and then there should be simple tables of the private and state schools. Have a look at what has been done on the Bath page which has so-called featured article status. Dahliarose 11:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Francis Close

A page on Francis Close might be good - his influence is all over Cheltenham. I haven't got time to do it right now though. -- JonRB 12:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Tallest Clock?

Is there any evidence to support the claim that the clock pictured is the tallest in the world? Shouldn't say things without a source, really. — Steverwanda 13:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Images

I've had a (not totally successful) go at dispersing the images amongst the article. These two were left over. I'm sure someone (that's you Vanky ;-)) can rearrange or prune out the pics we don't need.

The Queens Hotel in Cheltenham, built in the mid-1830s in Regency style

“The Minotaur and the Hare” bronze on the pedestrianised part of the Promenade. Sculpted by Sophie Ryder in 1995

--kingboyk 23:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

lol.. Nice job- not sure we need two photos of that Wilson statue on the same page though.. Swap one with one of these left over? It's much better than the image dump it used to be though :-) Vanky 00:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Historian's work. He's editing as we speak so I'll wait until he's finished. (Lightning quick reply by the way) --kingboyk 00:21, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the Wilson statue. I think we ought to have a photo of the Municipal Offices, but the current one is in my humble opinion not of the highest technical standard. So, which photo(s) are we going to remove? Should we put “The Minotaur and the Hare” back in? --kingboyk 13:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Category:Cheltenham

I've created a new Cheltenham category and subcategories thereof. Please put any new Cheltenham-related articles into one of these categories. --kingboyk 23:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Charles Irving

I'll say upfront that his politics didn't match mine :), but I think the above-mentioned gentleman deserves an article as the town's long running MP prior to Nigel Jones, should anyone care to start one. --kingboyk 13:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

MP for Tewkesbury?

Just posing the question, but why is an MP for Tewkesbury listed on this entry about Cheltenham? Jimbob muppet 21:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't put it there (and would agree with removing it) but I suspect the Tewkesbury constituency takes in parts of Cheltenham?? The delineation between the 2 towns is a bit crazy to say the least. I, for example, live in Cheltenham postal and telephone areas but Tewkesbury borough and constituency. I wouldn't be surprised if parts of Cheltenham are within the Tewkesbury MP's remit! --kingboyk 21:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... does seem a bit odd, but if there is a part of the population of Chelt that for historical reasons is represented by the MP for Tewkes, I suppose it's fair enough.Jimbob muppet 22:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's see. If nobody objects within the next few days I'll remove it. I think it's unnecessary and confusing. --kingboyk 22:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Will see if I can do some digging about boundaries to clarify this. Jimbob muppet 09:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

As of the last election the far section of the Leckhampton Road going up towards Leckhampton Hill (still within Cheltenham town boundaries) voted with Tewkesbury. - eine

Thanks - haven't got very far with the digging mentioned in previous comment. As the MP for Tewks is also MP for parts of Chelt then I guess he should be there. Jimbob muppet 11:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I live in Hatherley (the other side of Cheltenham!), yet we are still counted as the Tewkesbury constituancy... See gerrymandering! Vanky 12:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

As the current MP, I can clear this up. Cheltenham Borough has a population of 110,000 - too big for a single parliamentary constituency. So bits of the town have always been sliced off for parliamentary purposes and included in the neighbouring Tewkesbury constituency. Hatherley is actually back in since 2010, but Swindon Village and Prestbury parishes in the north are in Tewkesbury, along with (irritatingly!) Cheltenham Racecourse. It's all the more confusing because 'Tewkesbury' is a real misnomer for the neighbouring seat. As well as bits of Cheltenham it includes far more bits of northern Gloucestershire than the relatively small town of Tewkesbury itself. I am technically the 'Borough Member' for Cheltenham according to quaint local precedence but the MP for Tewkesbury does represent 2 out of the town's 20 local government wards.

--MartinChelt (talk) 13:19, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Trinity Church link

Hello - I added the link to Trinity Church. It is notable for being the largest Anglican church outside of London. It has seen tremendous growth in the last few years and is influential in the town. Will add a full article when I can - only just discovered Wikipedia.

Holy Trinity Church in Cheltenham is one of England’s largest church communities, with more than 1000 people worshipping regularly at its Portland Street building. It was founded in 1824 as an overflow venue for the town centre’s parish church, and its first minister was Francis Close, founder of Dean Close School. Two years ago, the church purchased a three-storey building nearby to accommodate its growing family. This forms the base for its extensive youth and children’s work, as well as the administration facilities. (from the Diocese of Gloucester website)

Ah OK. Shows how little I know. Probably it's worthy of a mention and a link then. --kingboyk 14:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Francis Close didn't found Dean Close School, it was founded in memory of him after he died. But, granted, it is yet another thing that links him to Cheltenham. -- JonRB 14:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

map

Image:GloucestershireCheltenham.png should be probably readded side by side to the dotmap. Morwen - Talk 10:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Major Employers

Is Cheltenham and Gloucester's headwuarters in Cheltenham? I thought it was in Barnwood, Gloucester.

This is correct - see Cheltenham and Gloucester, C&G's registered address according to their parent company, and at the bottom of the page here, and listed as Chief Office here. I think they were founded in Cheltenham though? Behind The Wall Of Sleep 19:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I've moved an anonymous comment here, because I suspect this is where the author intended it to go, which appeared on under the employers section: "In May 2007, Smiths Aerospace was sold to GE Aviation. The reference to Smiths Group as being a major employer needs to be changed to GE Aviation (formerly Smiths Aerospace)." I might just change the Smiths reference to GE Aviation, not an expert on this though so in anyone knows better please fix it! Behind The Wall Of Sleep 14:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Curiously the anon IP is registered to Smiths Group. Behind The Wall Of Sleep 14:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Me again. It isn't completely obvious to me from the Dowty Rotol page, but is D/R part of Smiths Aerospace and hence also covered by GE-Aviation? This Smiths Aerospace page with GE Logos at the top looks like the same company. Behind The Wall Of Sleep 14:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

John Taylor & Bill Galbraith1992 election

Should mention be made about John Taylor - First black parliamentary candidate for the Conservative party - and the controversy at the time of his appointment? DanBeale 12:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Possibly, but given the controversy it would have to be adequately sourced. The Echo would be fine, although iirc it made the national media too. --kingboyk 13:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

Cheltenham
Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg
Cheltenham Location within Gloucestershire
Population	(2,022)
• Density	mile²
OS grid reference	SO9422
Shire county	Gloucestershire
Region	South West
Country	England
Sovereign state	United Kingdom
Post town	CHELTENHAM
Postcode district	GL50
Dialling code	01242
Police	Gloucestershire
Fire	Gloucestershire
Ambulance	South Western
UK Parliament	Cheltenham
Website	http://www.cheltenham.gov.uk

I notice the article uses a non-standard infobox template. Depending on whether or not it is first and foremost about the town (rather than the borough) it may be better to use the "Infobox UK place" template (right). This is well updated and maintained, and since it uses a template, would de-clutter the wiki markup for the article. Thoughts? _└ ^UkPaolo/_talk^┐ 21:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Lists of schools Part 2

Earlier I noticed an anon trying to make a link in the article withou much success so I helped them out which was removed with reference to the consensus above at Talk:Cheltenham#Lists of schools. It seems to me that not having either a list of the schools or a seperate article on Education in Cheltenham makes this article somewhat different than most that I've seen. I'm not suggesting that links be made for all the schools in Cheltenham but just to the ones that have articles, see Category:Schools in Cheltenham, a total of 7. I looked at several other towns and they all have a list of schools or links to a list; Bath, Somerset#Education, Toronto#Education, Chelmsford#Education, Montreal#Education, Kingston upon Hull#Education, Leeds#Education, Farnham#Education and Southend-on-Sea#Education.

Right now you have the odd situation where 5 schools are deemed notable enough to have an article but not notable enough to be linked from here. Also, take a look at the section, Cheltenham#Churches. There are two churches that have their own articles and are linked plus 12 churches that are external links. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 15:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi CambridgeBayWeather, sorry, didn't mean it to look like I was undoing your good work there. I agree entirely that the schools situation is odd with Cheltenham. I'm guessing Cheltenham has suffered from school-cruft in the past and that's why they adopted quite a harsh policy here. I have no views about lists of schools particularly & won't object if you want to put the others in. I was wondering about Gloscat (sorry, I mean Gloucestershire College) though - probably the biggest educator in town by volume, but not well known outside of the county. What do you reckon, should it go in? Behind The Wall Of Sleep 20:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem with the removal. I hadn't seen the talk page comments and somehow managed to miss the <!-- Please do NOT add any other schools to this section. We mention only those institutions which have national or international renown. Listing every school is not a function of an encyclopedia. --> but I'm not sure how. I looked at Gloucestershire College and if it has a campus then it probably should be included. Another idea would be to leave it as is and link to List of schools in the South West of England#Gloucestershire and add the others there. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 00:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this is an excellent idea, as it encourages a neutral documentation of schools without lengthening the article. Re: GC, I am treading carefully because I noticed it didn't have an article and I wondered if there was a reason it shouldn't have one. I've linked to it now so maybe someone will write some content for it - at least now readers can tell there are two HE/FE institutions in town. Behind The Wall Of Sleep 09:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Campanology

This was deleted; I've put it back in, as it seems just as notable/interesting as anything else here. I've renamed the section "Sport and Leisure", if the issue is that campanology isn't a sport; it's certainly a leisure activity. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I've moved it to the Churches section - seems more at home there. nancy ^(talk) 20:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Endless sponsored listing sites

We now have links to both the dmoz page and the borough council's TIC site. I honestly don't think we need to endorse any of the countless sponsored listing sites any longer. We surely don't want them all, I can't see any justification in choosing any one above the others, and in any case the dmoz and TIC sites are pretty thorough, and we'd only be duplicating them. I will further prompt controversy by asking that anyone advocating them declare any interest as a CoI... Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 15:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Listing sites are unnecessary clutter often added directly or indirectly by the site owners (which is in any case against Wiki rules). Jjasi (talk) 16:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

No arguments from me. That's why I put DMOZ there and trimmed a few links already. Keep up the good work! --TimTay (talk) 18:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Time for a Churches in Cheltenham page?

Is it time to move the list of churches onto their own page? I'm not sure what having a list actually adds to an encyclopedia entry on Chelt? Jjasi (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I quite agree. There are a lot of churches in any town of this size and at this rate the encyclopaedic content in the article will be swamped by a Cheltenham Churches Directory. Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 10:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Having now searched a bit, I note there is already some sort of precedent for this kind of thing - have a look at List of churches in Hampshire (which has survived AfD). Maybe List of churches in Gloucestershire would be the appropriate level to do it at? I've no particular view on the value of lists of churches either way, but it might make more sense to have it in one place. Also, cf a central place for listing schools in the county which seems to work alright. Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 12:13, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Trinity would still deserve a mention in this main Cheltenham article, though, due to its status as largest Anglican congregation outside London. I'll see if I can source a better reference for this. Andrew Oakley (talk) 10:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Gosh, no-one has disagreed in 6+ months. Might go create the list page then. Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 10:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've done it. I've retained the two churches that made some claim of notability I could understand and put bell ringing under its own subsection. Makes sense to me, but as someone who's definitely not an expert in the topic, I will try to interfere no further... Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 11:04, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"Most complete Regency town in England"

This quote seems to come from a less-than-neutral source: http://www.visitcheltenham.com/Content.aspx?Urn=106 William Avery (talk) 21:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The cheltenham.gov.uk website has this quote too here, obviously still not impartial but hopefully less likely as a source to have made it up. I've contacted the council to see if they can shed light on where the quote comes from (since they are using it). Jjasi (talk) 15:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Update, I've had no luck coming op with a source from the Council. Jjasi (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The oldest source I can find for this phrase is the 1997 edition of the "AA Illustrated Guide to Britain". Myopic Bookworm (talk) 15:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

That's brill. If you've got the ISBN of the book can you add the reference to the page? Jjasi (talk) 21:09, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

External Links

What say we on having the genuki link in the Cheltenham#External Links section? Genuki is a fantastic resource for genealogists but to me it's not really relevant to an encyclopedia entry on Cheltenham. If we allow it then it seems we should allow lots of other vaguely related and we're back to having a massive external links section instead of them being where they should be in the dmoz (and not being in the dmoz is not a reason to list them in Wikipedia, it's a reason to add them to the dmoz). Jjasi (talk) 09:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I say it should come out. No matter how great a site it might be, it can't be a defining characteristic of the town. If I want to know about Cheltenham, knowing who the ancestors of the residents are is of little help to me. More importantly, it sets a precedent for including niche web sites - the list would go on for ever. Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 07:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with both Jjasi and Behind The Wall Of Sleep - the genuki link should be removed, if it is allowed to remain it sets a precedent for all manner of other sites with only a tangental association with actual subject of the article to be included. nancy ^(talk) 07:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree it should be removed. Readers looking for encyclopaedic information on Cheltenham are unlikely to find it useful. This kind of information is indexed elsewhere on the web. William Avery (talk) 07:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

In the long run it might be best to remove this link but at present there is no information at all in this article on the history of Cheltenham. The Genuki page provides links to a number of useful documents on the history of the town which could be the basis for a history section. The link is not doing any harm and might inspire someone to write a much needed history section. Dahliarose (talk) 08:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Setting aside WP:EL I can't agree that the online material linked to at Genuki would be a good choice of source. William Avery (talk) 19:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Town name

Is the town name officially just "Cheltenham" - or is it really "Cheltenham Spa"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.108.49 (talk) 18:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Today it's just "Cheltenham". Some signs on entry to the town still say "Welcome to Cheltenham Spa" but these days it's anachronistic, the only major body that still refers to it as CS appears to be the railways and that's because the last remaining station in Chelt was called Cheltenham Spa so has retained that name. Jjasi (talk) 07:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Pates, revisted, with Telegraph article

As someone not born or resident in Cheltenham, and who went to a bog standard comprehensive in Shropshire, I'm surprised that Pate's Grammar School doesn't get a mention in the Education section. It is reasonably well known outside Cheltenham and is especially noted in educational circles as a top-performing state grammar. I'd certainly heard of it before I moved to Gloucestershire. This Telegraph article would appear to provide more than sufficient reliable third-party justification of its notability:

"Pate’s is at the scruffier end of town and, from the outside, has little obvious to commend it. Inside, it is an intellectual powerhouse, one of the very best state schools in the country, with excellent facilities. It exudes ambition without arrogance. Invariably enjoys bragging rights over Cheltenham College when the exam results come out. Pate’s is not only a Beacon School, but was one of the first in the country to be accorded “extra special status” – it is both a specialist language college and a specialist science college."

The quote "Invariably enjoys bragging rights over Cheltenham College when the exam results come out" is worth quoting in the article directly. Being listed in a broadsheet as "one of the very best state schools in the country" is surely sufficient grounds for notability which sets it apart from the other state schools in the town. I realise this is controversial so... comments? Andrew Oakley (talk) 13:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I think the answer's in the question: the Telegraph quote compares it to another local school. This is the root of the Cheltenham article's specific historic problem with schools - advocates of each seeking to use Wikipedia to advance their pet cause. Telegraph or otherwise, I think we'd be playing into their hands here if we were to adopt this quote as justification for adding Pate's, Andrew Oakley. From a more generally applicable perspective, I don't think the exam statistics of one institution exceeding others down the road ever comprise national notability. Advocates of the private schools in the town feel theirs are more notable for other reasons. This comes down to saying a type of school or a particular characteristic is somehow best. There's no objective way of doing this and I don't think it's a good use of encyclopaedia pages. Parents naturally choose what they think is the best system or school for their own children, and they come to different conclusions. For some reason lost on me, a vocal minority (not meaning to count you in this, Andrew Oakley, they are far less coherent) go to war on the Internet to prove to their neighbours that they got into the best school. Also lost on me is why Cheltenham is so much more blighted by this than other places, but it is, and this article has suffered for it. FWIW, I'd never heard of Pate's until I first met an old Patesian, or a Pate's parent, or local teacher - things that only happen locally or to those working in the business - and I'd guess the same applies to most people and most (almost all) schools.

Now, rant over and trying to be constructive - Pate's Grammar School has an article, which is linked from a well organised and even handed list here, as well as many other places. We even have an Old Patesians RFC page. The list is linked from the Cheltenham article. This set-up has proved highly effective at eliminating both revert wars and school cruft, and I think it's also fair. And without wanting to trivialise any school, this is an historic town of 100k+ people and I think there are other things we could be focussing the article on. Don't get me started on the directory of churches either. ;) Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 10:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If we're going on notability alone, then Cheltenham College isn't notable. It isn't widely regarded, nor famous, and it certainly isn't well performing. That leaves us with the Ladies College, GlosUni/C&GCHE/SPASM and whatever GlosCat are calling themselves these days. Can anyone give a valid reason why Cheltenham College should be mentioned when other, more famous, better performing schools are not? Cheltenham College is just a local private school of no particular notability nor distinction. It's mention seems to be purely down to "it's a boys private school and we have to mention the girls' one because that is actually famous, so mentioning the boys' one makes it fair" which is a silly argument. Andrew Oakley (talk) 17:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it is as widely regarded, famous and notable as the LC. I don't think how well the school "performs" is relevant. (No i didn't go to either of them, or any of the other schools in Chelt, so hopefully I am able to be objective) Jjasi (talk) 11:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'd err towards "less is more". But I've no idea whether Chelt College is noteworthy in its own right. Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 12:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Our wee school's the best wee school

Well after reading through this page, and the articles education section, including the hidden orders/rules, it is obvious that the only educational facilities that should be included are those "...which have national or international renown." The only thing is that none of those listed have any sort of source to indicate that they are known nationally of internationally, and so have been removed for now. At the same time I have started up a List of schools in Cheltenham. It needs work, especially the "type" section. Other things might be useful, such as day school/boarding and other information that may be of interest, especially as not all the schools in the list would be notable for thier own article. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 19:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that was a bit drastic. The Ladies' College has national renown, and the College and Grammar School are also worth mentioning. Myopic Bookworm (talk) 11:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

And it now seems that Pate's is the most notable of all. The thing is that none of them are sourced for the notability in this article. Even looking at the Pate's Grammar School article does not tell me why this school, other than possibly the age of it, may be more notable than any other. At least Cheltenham Ladies' College can make some claim to being famous, according to The Good Schools Guide. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:54, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Cheltenham Ladies' College has an international reputation. Fictional characters from the school appeared in the recent remake of St Trinian's. Cheltenham College is well known nationally. The school was famously the setting for the Lindsay Anderson film if..... Pate's is also recognised nationally, largely because is it is one of the few remaining grammar schools. Because it selects pupils from a huge area it is inevitably placed near the top of all the national league tables. Cheltenham is also the home of UCAS, the university clearing house. Reputations can be difficult to reference. Perhaps the media references would be of more interest to the general reader. Dahliarose (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The league tables would help, as would the media references. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 18:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I hate league tables. I retained a mention of Pate's because of its historical importance in the history of Cheltenham, not for any rating as a present day school. Myopic Bookworm (talk) 12:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case the hidden comment should probably be removed or changed because the criteria that people want is historical significance and/or current national or international renown. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 17:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd support broadening the criteria to include notability through genuine historical significance to the town. I've no idea which schools might meet this. I think we have to distinguish institutions that have substantially influenced the development, economy or culture of the town from those which are just very old (i.e., we'll have to insist on references showing this influence, not just dates of establishment or web sites of the institutions themselves...) I think deleting the hidden comment altogether would be a mistake, though. We're already into a flury of revision and counter-revision. If it ain't clear, endless revert wars await us... Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 16:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of a separate "list of schools" page (I still think it's the only objective answer) but could we include the list, along with location data and so on under the list of schools in Gloucestershire? Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 16:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Size could end up being a problem. All the schools with the associated info for the southwest of England could make it very large. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 19:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I think the only reason the current List_of_schools_in_the_South_West_of_England isn't unmanageable is the lack of content on it. How about a compromise: as we now have some good data on Chelt schools, we could put the content from both the Glos section of the SW list alongside the Chelt list under a dedicated "list of schools in Gloucestershire" article? This way we would end up with just one place to keep the information (this is my only objection to having a separate Chelt list). If the SW page ever gets enough content to be really useful, it will have to go this way anyway. Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 09:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the current wording is pretty good actually (well done whoever wrote it). It's probably the most balanced we've had yet as it outlines the criteria and reason for notability in each case and comes across as fairly balanced. And it mentions Dean Close ;o)

"The oldest school in Cheltenham is Pate's Grammar School (founded in 1574).[9] Cheltenham College (founded in 1841) was the first of the major public schools of the Victorian period.[10] The school was the setting in 1968 for the classic Lindsay Anderson film if.....[11] It also hosts the annual Cheltenham Cricket Festival, first staged in 1872, and the oldest cricket festival in the world.[12] The most famous school in the town, according to the The Good Schools Guide, is Cheltenham Ladies' College (founded in 1853).[13][14] Dean Close School was founded in 1886 in memory of the Reverend Francis Close (1797-1882), a former rector of Cheltenham and the founder of Cheltenham's great tradition of education.[15] The town also includes several campuses of the University of Gloucestershire, one other public and six other state schools, plus institutions of further education."

--JonRB (talk) 14:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is a big improvement on where we were a few weeks ago. Each has a claim of notability and each one is somehow verifiable. The only things that bother me now are that Francis Close doesn't have his own article (presumably he is notable in his own right, isn't he?); and that "cheltenham4u.co.uk" isn't exactly a source beyond reproach. IMO it's good enough for the present purpose though. Either way if it stays like this, I'd call it a success... Behind The Wall Of Sleep (talk) 09:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Francis Close most definitely deserves his own article, but we probably should say more about him here too. Does anyone have access to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography to view Francis Close's entry as this is probably the most important secondary source? It can be found here. (Some libraries, though not mine, provide free subscriptions so that you can access the ODNB with your library card.) Here is an extract from Francis Close's entry in the first edition of the DNB: "During his incumbency of Cheltenham the population more than doubled. In the town he erected, or caused to be erected, five district churches, with schools, and also contributed, largely to the establishment of Cheltenham College." Source: Ancestry.com. Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-20, 22 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: The Generations Network, Inc., 2003. Original data: Sir Leslie Stephen, ed.. The Dictionary of National Biography Founded in 1882 by George Smith. Vol. I-XX, XXII. London, England: Oxford University Press, 1921-1922. From a quick Google search it would appear that Francis Close also founded the teacher training college in Cheltenham which I think is now part of the so-called University of Gloucestershire. Some of the university campuses/buildings are named after Francis Close. He also appears to have had a hand in the foundation of the Ladies' College. I think we could do with something more interesting about CLC other than the fact that it is notable for being famous.

New file File:Cheltenham by Richard Dighton.jpg

Recently the file File:Cheltenham by Richard Dighton.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 06:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)