Talk:Chav/Archive 7

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Edit request on 16 July 2012

Get rid of the extra "to".

Change: The Guardian in 2011 identified issues stemming from the use of the terms "hoodies" and "chav" within the mass media which had to led to age discrimination as a result of mass media created stereotypes.[2]

To: The Guardian in 2011 identified issues stemming from the use of the terms "hoodies" and "chav" within the mass media which had led to age discrimination as a result of mass media created stereotypes.[2]

203.41.133.81 (talk) 03:27, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Done RudolfRed (talk) 03:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 July 2012

Change: The rapper Ben Drew otherwise known as Plan B made a public statement on his website in March 2012 to oppose the use the word 'chav', describing the term "a derogatory phrase no different to the ones concerning race or sex".

To: The rapper Ben Drew otherwise known as Plan B made a public statement on his website in March 2012 to oppose the use of the word 'chav', describing the term "a derogatory phrase no different to the ones concerning race or sex".

203.41.133.81 (talk) 03:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Done RudolfRed (talk) 03:58, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd favour a rewrite

1st for neutrality, 2nd, for clarity:

I think it was right to remove much of the sources that asserted the negative stereotype of chav, but I think that the current article goes too far and silences them. The negative stereotypes have a pretty wide currency, and for clarity, the article needs to say what the negative stereotype of a chav is, before this sterotype is criticised by Plan B and others. For neutrality, it should reference the fact that some people think that the negative stereotype is more or less fair. (And further, there are just too many 'left-wing' quotes.)

- and 3rd, for structure. I think chav means three different things. You'll see that below, as here is my idea of how the introduction would look, followed by my outline for the rest of the article. I look forward to comments:

In modern UK culture, 'chav' is a term with three (sometimes overlapping) uses; (1)as a description of a style of working-class dress, (2) as a synonym for 'hooligan' or 'yob', and (3) as a term that characterises the working classes as feckless, anti-social and aggressively confrontational. In this third sense, the term 'chav' is linked to the recent resurgence of the notion of the 'deserving' and the 'undeserving poor,' although it is important to note that the term 'chav' is essentially a slang term, like 'sloane ranger,' and while its popularity on internet forums (where it first became current) and in tabloid newspapers makes it a significant term, is rarely found in serious debate.

And it would continue to then describe the style of clothing, highlighting the fact that, like 1980's 'sloane ranger' style, it is in part an expression of a very British class identity; unlike, say, 1970 New York hip-hop styles, it is not copied by middle-class teenagers around the world - indeed, middle class teenagers in the Uk often try to avoid looking like a 'chav'. Just as Sloanes were mocked, so is chav style. - and it would then say, the definition is loose; for some people, any tracksuit worn outside a sporting context is 'chav' uniform, whereas some elements associated with chav style are similar to fashion favoured by football hooligans or to the outfits notoriously worn by actor Vinne Jones; and through this, chav has become associated with 'people hanging around on the street doing nothing' and 'people looking for trouble,' and is sometimes used as an exclusivey negative term, which is far more associated with a particular behaviou than with appearance. [If it isn't too subtle - or too confused- , the article could ask, to what extent are current perceptions based on fair observations (eg people who conciously dress like football hooligans want trouble) and to what extent unfair prejudice (some violent people wear brand x, so everyony who wears brand x must be violent.)]

And then, describe the sort of books and opinion pieces in the Telegraph etc that have appeared asserting that there is a new culture among the working class/ underclass that is disengaged from society, rejects all societies positive values, and rejects all help, and then the opposing claim that these are merely offensive and unfair generalisations, seeking not to help to analyse or to improve the situation, but seeking to justify the denial of real opportunities to those at the bottom of society and to 'demonise the working class'.

and finally perhaps a few general things to help orientate readers (I have non-UK readers in mind); chav in the 1st sense (ie fashion) is predominantly based on traditional white working class identities, but it is not particularly associated with racism; it blurs with other street cultures (hip-hop, etc), doesn't have particular associations with crime but may be associated with areas with higher rates of povery and crime; may be loosely associated with 'broken Britain'; associated with certain types of UK 'urban' music; is a youth style it is associateed with boy-racers; has no particular connection to sport; and again, like Sloane, it arose as a description by outsiders, it wasn't a label people chose for themselves, or that people choose to associate themselves with (contrast to hip-hop).

I didn't use any 'Fachbuecher' ie purely academic works. - I saw on the project discussion page for when this article was nominated for GA status, a suggestion that more academic sources were cited. - The people like Own Jones who wrote books which were talked about outside academia have sometimes been on 'serious' radio programmes discussing them at length, I think I've picked up enough. But I haven't read his book. I do have one academic I can quote on the rise of the notion of 'the deserving and undeserving poor'.

Otherwise I'm looking for comments. Does any of it appear contentious etc. many thanks

33gsd (talk) 00:37, 5 October 2012 (UTC) edit33gsd (talk) 12:17, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 October 2012

The word 'chav' was regularly used in South Manchester as far back as 1984. The term was used to address a section of society that appeared to be preoccupied with petty crime and anti-social behaviour. The use of the term as a South Manchester colloqualism precedes The Oxford English Dictionary's reported first perojative usage in a Usenet forum by 14 years.

Milleniumdome (talk) 09:12, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Chav

In South American politics, the supporters of the Venezuelan President and socialist (?) politician Hugo Chavez are called "Chavistas". Is it possible that this has any relevance to the source of the term 'Chav'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.90.137.161 (talk) 11:56, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

No, not really possible. They're named because they follow Chavez. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:27, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Chavez

I have found a nineteenth century reference to "chavs and tinkers" in a description of residents of Chowe Dene, then a barren heath area south of Gateshead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.112.213 (talk) 21:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Very interesting. You should contact the Oxford English Dictionary about it, or just write to the local paper. In any case, you need to have the full reference. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:30, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 December 2012

The meaning of the word chav is Council House And Violence e.g young people who claim benefits and sit on second hand sofas all there life watching repeated Jeremy kyle,listening to N-Dubz and telling people they have had a hard life because they have to buy their Christmas dinner from Iceland. You can always tell a chav as they wear Burberry caps and are more than likely smoking cheap cigarettes in front of there babies. Driving around in a poorly decorated rover 100 Chavs are like rats going around populating the streets and spreading around disease tg Kane3333 (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Please stop disrupting Wikipedia. Pol430 talk to me 00:02, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Ali G

Would Sacha Baron Cohan's Ali G. character be an example of a Chav? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.67.17.49 (talk) 14:48, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

He's a wigger. Jim Michael (talk) 01:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

A working class?

More like "on-benefits class". Most of the chavs don't work, I think "lower class" would suit that description better. 81.156.88.116 (talk) 22:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Say I see a group of young men with short hair wearing polo shirts, jeans and trainers, talking about football. Are they all unemployed? Or might some of them be apprentice plasterers? You tell me. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Typical chavs seem to be unemployed or at best doing low-level jobs. I see them roaming the streets at 4am on a weekday asking random people for a quid, so they don't strike me as rich-asses if they're even bothered to get up the next day for work. --Xagg (talk) 20:08, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

You see, at the moment, a major proportion of the population are doing low-level jobs. The contradictory thing is that they are either "strivers" whose votes need to be won, or they are laughable chavs. You can talk them on the Mail Online comments sections if you want to win their votes. And those roaming the streets at 4am on a weekday asking random people for a quid could be apprentice plasterers, or long-term unemployed, or, more likely, university students. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:29, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

"the Burberry brand Christopher Bailey, who has responsible" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.163.110 (talk) 04:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Chavs and their subculture existed long before Burberry clothes became popular. In any case, most chavs don't wear Burberry. Chavs are overwhelmingly underclass, although there are smaller numbers of people from other classes who look and behave like chavs because they think it's cool. Lauren Cooper, Vicky Pollard and the protagonist of Lee Nelson's Well Good Show are fictional characters who are certainly chavs. A regular, law-abiding, conscientious, working-class person, such as an electrician or a plumber is not at all like a chav. Chavs are not part of mainstream society, nor do they want to be. A chav who is an irresponsible, lazy, 23-year-old father of five who has been locked up several times since being expelled from school ten years ago, has no qualifications or conscientousness, has never worked, has unpaid debts, a drug habit, recklessly drives a beaten-up van with bald tyres and has antisocial personality disorder is by no means working class, and does not even pretend to be. Even a chav who jumps from one unskilled, dead-end job to another, living for the weekend when he spends most of his wages getting drunk, is not working class. Working-class people typically have a skilled trade and a constructive identity and direction in life. Being a chav is about behaviour and attitude more than it is about clothing. Chavs are proud to be a problem to society and violate the social norms of mainstream society. They choose to be antagonistic. None of them think that loitering on the streets for hours, blocking the pavement and drunkenly intimidating passers-by can be of any constructive use to anyone. Jim Michael (talk) 12:46, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

"Chavs are overwhelmingly underclass, although there are smaller numbers of people from other classes who look and behave like chavs because they think it's cool. ... None of them [real chavs] think that loitering on the streets for hours, blocking the pavement and drunkenly intimidating passers-by can be of any constructive use to anyone." Ah yes, the kids that loiter the streets asking for money are more likely posing. Thanks for bringing that up. --Xagg (talk) 17:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

You misunderstood what I wrote. I'm not saying that they're posing. They're deliberately being an intimidating, obstructive, lazy, noisy nuisance. A high proportion of chavs have (or are developing) ASPD and/or passive-aggressive personality disorder. You raised the issue of begging, which I had not mentioned because most chavs are not beggars and most beggars are not chavs. Since you raise that issue, let me remind you that we're talking about people most of whom spend thousands of pounds every year on cigarettes and alcohol. Most of them live with their parents and/or other family members who provide them with plenty of food; these are not destitute people struggling to survive. They are feral by choice. Jim Michael (talk) 12:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Spot on. --Ef80 (talk) 01:02, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2015

Change: The Guardian in 2011 identified issues stemming from the use of the terms "[[hoodies]]" and "chav" within the mass media, which had led to age discrimination as a result of mass media-created stereotypes.

To: The Guardian in 2011 identified issues stemming from the use of the terms "[[Hoodie#United_Kingdom|hoodies]]" and "chav" within the mass media, which had led to age discrimination as a result of mass media-created stereotypes

The "hoodies" link should be changed to link to Hoodie#United_Kingdom subsection of the Hoodie page, rather than just the Hoodie article currently linked.

Why: In the quote, the word "hoodie" is being used to refer to the person wearing it, rather than the actual article of clothing being worn. This is a distinctly British usage of the word, and outside of the UK, 'hoodie' is not a common term for the person, and generally refers to the garment itself. The average/common reader already knows what a hoodie is, and likely wants more information on the usage or origin of the term 'hoodie' in the UK and its media to refer to the stereotype/person wearing it, rather than wanting to know more about the article of clothing itself. Given that the Chav article is about a stereotype most used in the United Kingdom, linking to the UK subsection of the Hoodie article is more specific and more useful than linking to the base hoodie article. This is reinforced by the disambiguation page for the Hoodie article, specifically the entry "an alternative term for chav, a stereotype used in Britain".

TiredTendencies (talk) 22:50, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Done - thank you for your suggestion. I agree that even though the revised link is still a link to the garment, the focused UK perspective is better suited here than the generic topic, since the perception is quite different in the UK from elsewhere. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:22, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

essex

Essex girl article seems to have some overlap in usage terms — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.95.7.64 (talk) 13:48, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

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Removal of demeaning image

User User:Medeis seems insistent on adding the derogatory, toothless caricature of a "Chav", pictured to the left. I have removed it, and would appreciate the input of other editors regarding the appropriateness of this image. Wikipedia's Image Use Policy seems clear on this topic, "The following types of image are normally considered unacceptable...those that unfairly demean or ridicule the subject". I believe a toothless, retarded-looking image meant to represent a "typical" member of a particular group is unacceptable, and violates Wikipedia policy. User:Medeis has stated that this demeaning caricature was placed into the article "by consensus". Could someone please lead me to that discussion? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 03:02, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

That line of policy about demeaning images refers to "legally obtained photographs of individuals", not cartoons. Captioning the cartoon as "this is a representation of a typical chav" would be inappropriate, but it was clearly labelled as "a chav stereotype". --McGeddon (talk) 07:40, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

It's still an awful picture. I'm a fan of images in articles, but surely no image is better than that horrible, annoying and childish thing.Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:48, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I've replaced it with something more suitable. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Since this is an article about a purely pejorative term, we shouldn't take a photo of someone who probably wouldn't describe themselves in this way, and hold it up (both here and as the top Google result for the term) as an illustrative example. WP:IUP gives the example of captioning an arbitrary person as "obese" as "potentially derogatory or demeaning".

I'm not a great fan of the cartoon either, but it seems better than nothing for "help[ing] to provide a visual association for the topic, and allow[ing] readers to quickly assess if they have arrived at the right page". We don't have a lot of options for illustrating pejorative articles. --McGeddon (talk) 09:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Which is why the image I posted does not refer to the people as chavs, but merely states they are wearing typical chav clothing. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps a picture of a Burberry cap? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:17, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Describing someone as "wearing typical chav clothing" seems about as insulting as "is a chav". Digging around on Commons there's actually File:Chav scally.jpg, a photo of a comedian "dressed in character as "The Wee Man" - a "ned" / "scally" / "chave"", which seems like a useful rare case where a person is happy to self-identify as a chav. What do you think? --McGeddon (talk) 10:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I think that would be an excellent choice. Good find ! Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I restored the cartoon image that was atop the article for a long time, and today find that that has been reverted and replaced with an image of a real person. Surely the cartoon is better, since we're not labelling a BLP as being a chav, simply showing what the stereotype looks like. This image has been in the article for ten years, and I've always found it representative of what this perjorative term represents. The current image needs to go, as it depicts a real person. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 14:02, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Origination of the word CHAV

I grew up in Sth Yorks and we used the word to refer to a type of girl who was CHeap and AVailable. This was in the late 70's early 80's and was a commonly used reference within my group of male peers and wider male groups.86.171.151.164 (talk) 07:22, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. I searched in Google using "chav" "cheap" "available" but couldn't find a source. If you can find a reliable source it would be a good edit to add. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:51, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2018

change

to

by this I mean change this link: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article101201.ece

to this link: https://web.archive.org/web/20121024061322/http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article101201.ece

the reason for this is that the original link is not working any more HARevs (talk) 17:43, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done Gulumeemee (talk) 04:12, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2018

change the link in

http://news.aol.co.uk/article.adp?id=20060821161009990001

to this new link

https://web.archive.org/web/20071011215623/http://news.aol.co.uk/chavda-bids-to-register-yoof-slang/article/20060821161009990001

so it now becomes

The above link is very much out of date and needs updating if not removing in this user's opinion, but the wayback machine preserved it in its original form HARevs (talk) 17:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done Gulumeemee (talk) 04:12, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

References

= it is a gypsy word

People have been using the word "charver" in Newcastle since the 1950s, when I was a kid. And that was because the gypsies up north used to call their kids "chavis".

So if you saw a rough looking teenager/young adult, who was maybe a bit vulgar, you called them a "charver" for a joke. As in, you're implying they're a gypsy!

Chav is quite new. People have only been using it in the south since the late 80s/90s and it's only been widely used in the south in the last 10 years or so.

Chav is just the southern variation of a northern word. Charver. And Charver is a variation of the original ancient gypsy word, chavvy

108.171.128.173 (talk) 18:00, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I originally come from Gravesend, which is in North West Kent (i.e. the South for those not from the UK), and we used chav/chavi at least as early as the 70s. Kent had a lot of gypsies due to the fruit/hop picking, so it's more likely it came from them than Geordies. 141.8.46.27 (talk) 14:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

gotta say that makes sense like, i moved from southend on sea in essex to newcastle when i was fourteen in nov 96 and had never heard the word 'charver' until moved here, and i sharp picked it up when i did move here, along with the accent. and tbh, me n me mates only really used it to take the micky out of people that used to go around making out they were hard nuts, when they really weren't, ya kna, the here, man, i'll knock yas aal oot type a eedjits ya get that walk around swinging their arms around like they're carrying carpets or a couple of wardrobes, which we usually said at them too. ho charver chur mush, where's ya carpets? ya got em, stashed in those wardrobes ya carrying?. when i heard the word chav on tv, i knew for a fact it musta come about from a southerner mishearing the northern pronunciation of the word charv, which if you pronounce charv northern, and chav southern, sound the same. which is why whenever someone on tv says chav, a thousand northerners shout at the telly it's pronounced charver ya divvy, anyway, it'll always be charv or charver to me, and always be used to describe people that go around thinking they're solid when they're not, and chav will always be the southerners way of messing something up they never really got in the first place, like a yank trying to say wey aye man, and no, i might live in byker, and wear polos and burberry, but im not a charv, i read too many comics to be one, besides, i KNA im solid. lol. D0S81 (talk) 13:28, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Hebrew word for Friend is חָבֵר

Pronounced as Chaver - Well, as close as you write in English, it is pronounced much like in Britain. Wouldn't be a far stretch of imagination where the derogatory connotation would have come from. 81.102.111.206 (talk) 21:28, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Seems doubtful to me. The “ch” in chaver is pronounced like in “loch”, nothing like the pronounciation of “chav”. — Narsil (talk) 19:39, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2018

Change "Chav (/tʃæv/ CHAV) (charver in parts of Northern England) is a pejorative epithet used in Britain to describe a particular stereotype" to "Chav (/tʃæv/ CHAV) (charver in parts of Northern England) is a pejorative epithet used in SOME COUNTRIES IN BRITAIN to describe a particular stereotype"

This word is NOT used in Scotland. PekldopP9 (talk) 08:38, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Per this recent edit of mine, I'd agree that the article gives an inaccurate impression that this term is used throughout Britain. Can we establish which parts of Britain it is used in? As far as I know it is pretty widespread, now, throughout England, though I may be wrong. Is it used widely, or at all, in Wales or Northern Ireland? Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:22, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2018

Please change "The Oxford English Dictionary defines chav as an informal British derogatory, meaning "a young lower-class person who displays brash and loutish behaviour and wears real or imitation designer clothes".[5]" to "A young person of a type characterized by brash and loutish behaviour (usually with connotations of a low social status)." 83.67.181.186 (talk) 09:05, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: The proposed text which concerns a supposed definition used by the OED does not include, for whatever reason, the OED itself as a reference.  Spintendo  19:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 July 2019

Add it to "See below" list. Thank you

• Dresiarz 2601:192:C17F:C334:4CC2:4F3E:A6C2:4BBB (talk) 20:34, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Highway 89 (talk) 04:27, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 September 2019

I want to change some names on this site. Jonty12345 (talk) 02:08, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. QueerFilmNerd^talk 07:44, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2020

On this page it says that russ is an Irish drill rapper which is not true as Russ is from London I would request that Russ would be removed and replaced with someone like INK 79.97.60.45 (talk) 20:10, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – robertsky (talk) 02:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Adding another sub-culture related to Chavs, the Roadmen

I've added some information about a new sub-cultural group relating to chavs that are known as Roadmen. If you have any information you'd like to add, please do so at any time. Thanks! Balkanite (talk) 13:16, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Balkanite: most of the material that you've added on this subject is unsourced, which violates the Verifiability policy. Can you please add some sources? --88.105.158.28 (talk) 10:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@88.105.158.28:, you have nothing to worry about. I just recently added some sources that should clear up the issue. Balkanite (talk) 00:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Chav v Roadman

"However in the 2010s, the word "chav" within the streets of Britain is seldom used"

According to Google Trends "chav" is searched for nearly 3 times as often in the UK.

Unsourced, utter shite. Colinmcdermott (talk) 10:58, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Second paragraph has an inaccessible reference

It says this new recent spinoff [Note:when?] so I tried to look at the linked reference #8, but it links to Nike ads & ad copy. A broader search of quant, google, for the cited article only results in this Wikipedia entry. Will try internet archive way-back machine, but how to fix this question of when & the broken citation?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 52.119.116.170 (talk) 21:57, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

CHAV as an acronym

Council House And Violent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.108.20 (talk) 20:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Roadman and chav are not the same

This article seems poorly written with various subcultures and terms all subsumed under chav - this does not hold water linguistically nor culturally. An example is "Roadman" which is now a found outside of the UK and could better have its own article.

https://www.grailed.com/drycleanonly/roadman-style and https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12289880

Give some more details how it is an estate based urban (from London - and I would guess Nottingham, Birmingham, Manchester) music related and street fashion phenomenon. Is it from black culture? I am not sure, someone more familiar could say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.31.26 (talk) 01:16, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree. Roadman culture is predominantly black and associated with grime and to some extent, street drug dealing. Chav culture is predominantly white, though there is obviously some crossover. --Ef80 (talk) 14:57, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 March 2022

The addition of Ah Beng in the "See also" section, with its direct equivalence/stereotype to Chav. 210.99.230.73 (talk) 10:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 07:24, 13 March 2022 (UTC)