Talk:Charlie Patton

Charley vs. Charlie

The two version of the name are both used in the article (the title is Charlie while the first line reads Charley). Does anyone know, clearly, which it is? The image used clearly reads "The Best of Charlie Patton." I've seen both names used interchangably all over the internet, but there has to be a right or a wrong to it and I think the article should be cleaned up to reflect a single spelling. Liontamarin

I've seen it used both ways interchangably in dozens of publications. I don't think there is a single right or wrong way. Personally I've seen "Charley" more often. All references should be changed to one of them in the article, and the other can serve as a redirect.Jhayes94 18:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then I'm going to suggest that, since Charlie Patton is already the name of the article and Charley redirects, and since the CD cover says "Charlie" that the article simply be changed consistently to Charlie. I'm going to go ahead and do that, and if anyone has any objections, let me know. Liontamarin 21:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, I'll look into why there seems to be two different ways and report back Jhayes94 18:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I own a number of resources (old record collections, books, CDs etc) and almost all refer to Mr Patton as "Charley". I think it's less accurate to use 'Charlie'. I can support this by citing the International Genealogical Index for North America

Charley Patton - International Genealogical Index / NA Gender: Male Birth: About 1887 Bolton, Hinds, Mississippi

The spelling 'Charley' is found on his Paramount records that first introduced his name to the world.

Parents: Bill & Annie Patton

It's Charley, and always has been. The redirect needs to be swapped around. The use of Charlie is simply because that's the standard spelling of the name, and people assume it should be ubiquitous.

The quality of the writing in this article (without regards to grammar or factual accuracy) is lacking; for example, overuse of similar phrases ("spell") and non-academic tone.

The gravestone cited in the article was placed on Patton's grave in the New Jerusalem MB Church Cemetery, Holly Ridge Mississippi, by the Mount Zion Memorial Fund, a Mississippi non-profit organization, with the financial support of John Fogerty, in July 1990. The decision to spell the name "Charley" was made after some debate and was decided upon with the help of noted writer and Blues scholar Jim O'Neal who urged usage of the spelling as it appeared on the Paramount recordings for which Patton was most well known. The Mount Zion Memorial Fund 501(c)3 was formed in 1989 to save the Mt. Zion Missionary Baptist Church in Morgan City, Mississippi from foreclosure by soliciting support from Columbia Records to place a cenotaph in the Mt. Zion cemetery honoring Robert Johnson. From 1990 to 2001 the Mount Zion Fund with Fogerty's continuous support also placed memorials on the graves of Elmore James (in association with Phil Walden and Capricorn Records), Mississippi Fred Mc Dowell (in association with Bonnie Raitt), Big Joe Williams (in association with Antone's of Austin, Texas), Mississippi Joe Callicott (in association with Arhoolie Records), James 'Son' Thomas, Eugene Powell, Sam Chatmon and Memphis Minnie (paid for by Bonnie Raitt), Lonnie Pitchford, and in 2001 Tommy Johnson (paid for again by Bonnie Raitt). As of April 2007 the Tommy Johnson memorial remains in the Crystal Springs, Mississippi Public Library due to an ongoing battle over legal access to the landlocked Warm Springs Methodist Cemetery in unincorporated Copiah County, Mississippi. RFH NOLaRFH NOLa 19:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From what I've seen "Charley" is what was originaly printed on his records, so I tend to go with that rather than "Charlie". -- CoolJack2

Discography

Any reason not to include a full discography of his 78rpm releases, ie with matrix & catalogue numbers? I have the information here (from D&G); would there be any copyright issues...? --RobHutten 19:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Took the information from the extensive german article. Any completions concerning the partially lacking release dates would be very welcome. Denisoliver 15:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The gravestone cited in the article was placed on Patton's grave in the New Jerusalem MB Church Cemetery, Holly Ridge Mississippi, by the Mount Zion Memorial Fund, a Mississippi non-profit organization, with the financial support of John Fogerty, in July 1990. The decision to spell the name "Charley" was made after some debate and was decided upon with the help of noted writer and Blues scholar Jim O'Neal who urged usage of the spelling as it appeared on the Paramount recordings for which Patton was most well known. The Mount Zion Memorial Fund 501(c)3 was formed in 1989 to save the Mt. Zion Missionary Baptist Church in Morgan City, Mississippi from foreclosure by soliciting support from Columbia Records to place a cenotaph in the Mt. Zion cemetery honoring Robert Johnson. From 1990 to 2001 the Mount Zion Fund with Fogerty's continuous support also placed memorials on the graves of Elmore James (in association with Phil Walden and Capricorn Records), Mississippi Fred Mc Dowell (in association with Bonnie Raitt), Big Joe Williams (in association with Antone's of Austin, Texas), Mississippi Joe Callicott (in association with Arhoolie Records), James 'Son' Thomas, Eugene Powell, Sam Chatmon and Memphis Minnie (paid for by Bonnie Raitt), Lonnie Pitchford, and in 2001 Tommy Johnson (paid for again by Bonnie Raitt). As of April 2007 the Tommy Johnson memorial remains in the Crystal Springs, Mississippi Public Library due to an ongoing battle over legal access to the landlocked Warm Springs Methodist Cemetery in unincorporated Copiah County, Mississippi. RFH NOLaRFH NOLa 19:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Photograph controversy

There is some doubt whether there are any surviving pictures of Charley Patton, and whether the picture of Charley Patton that appears on albums of his recordings is actually him. David Honeyboy Edwards, as of 2006 the last living person who knew Charley Patton well, insisted in a 2005 interview in Mojo that the man depicted in that picture (which appears in the article) was not Patton.

Thats ridiculous. Contemporary ads show drawings of his face and all drawings clearly base on this photography. Descriptions of him by many other eyewitnesses clearly match. The only problem is: the photography is not free. Its copyright is owned by John Tefteller. Denisoliver 17:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But the grainy half-toned image discovered by Maxey Tarpley back in the ... '70s? would be in the public domain, wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure Tefteller's rights to the original photograph wouldn't apply to reproductions from a print advertisement from the '30s. --RobHutten 19:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can we cut some picture of Patton from Crumb's Patton comic and put it on this article? Are we allowed to do that? --128.214.205.4 13:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@RobHutten: I am not an expert in copyright-issues, but at least I would be quite careful with these, as they are an excerpt of the original. Somebody else obviously owned the copyright before Tefteller did and allowed the use of the excerpt (a derivative work) under a certain license, but not to the WP. And AFAIK the publishing of a derivative work does not touch the rights of the owner of the original work. But, please ask an expert in the en-wikipedia for a more valid information. I am from the German WP and there the copyright-situation is rather different. And as Tefteller is taking care of his copyright in a quite hard way, I wouldn't take any risk and ask before uploading anything. @128.214.205.4: Absolutely not, as these drawings are copyrighted by Crumb himself. But maybe (he's been a hippie, man!) he would submit a picture of the strip to the GFDL, when asked politely. Just ask, you can't get more then a "No". Denisoliver 13:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I asked Crumb's website. Let's see what they say... It may take some time before they answer --128.214.205.6 15:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious about it! Denisoliver 17:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They did not answer anything. I think this is worse than "No". I hate it when people ignore e-mails. --128.214.205.4 09:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about using one of the Patton album covers, i.e. Yazoo L 1020 or the alternate Yazoo L 1020 (they're 'fair use' aren't they ?) StefanWirz 16:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They contain the photograph and thus are derivative works too. Denisoliver 11:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How about the heavily retouched photo in the "Father of Delta Blues"? If not other photo is available? I know it looks very little like Charlie but it might be worth a thought. Regs, KC

The mentioned photograph from 1908 is not authentic. It is a hoax. Denisoliver 00:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Album covers are always allowed under Fair Use. This goes regardless of what some profiteer named Tefteller says. - Maggie--70.48.204.230 03:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FUC, Point 2: "The material must not be used in a manner that would likely replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media; our use of copyrighted material should not make it so that one no longer needs to purchase the actual product. Large copyrighted photographs from agencies that make their income selling photographs, for example, would likely not be "fair use" as it would be undermining the ability of the copyright holder to make money from their work." Denisoliver 23:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correct spelling

The correct spelling of his name is Charley. The article's name and his name in all places in the article should be corrected.

clicky! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.69.239.103 (talk) 23:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]

I dont have the book here handy to show the page reference but a contemporary someone in the Wardlow/Calt book claimed that Patton SPECIFICALLY spelt his name as "C-H-A-R-L-I-E" (the only word he really knew how to spell).

regs, KC

"The Masked Marvel"

Charlie Patton sometimes played at plantation parties under the name "The Masked Marvel" wearing a mask and gave a free 78 record to anyone who recognised him.

Eddie Punch 22:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not true. "The Masked Marvel" was an advertising campaign created by someone at Paramount Records to promote Patton's 78 RPM recording of "Screamin' and Hollerin' The Blues". It's unknown if Patton was even aware of it, and he certainly didn't perform under the name.

Genethedancingmachine 14:59, 13 July 2007

Charley recorded under various pseudonyms. One of which was Elder JJ Hadley.

Best version on Britannica

May 1 birth of charlie patton uncertain http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/446858/Charley-Patton —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChessMasta (talk • contribs) 19:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead paragraph

I don't understand the phrase in the lead "one of the oldest known figures of American popular music." Wouldn't that description better fit someone such as Stephen Foster or Edwin Pearce Christy? 78.26 (talk) 17:43, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]