Talk:Charles Spencer Francis

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A fact from Charles Spencer Francis appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 April 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Cornell University student Charles Spencer Francis, who later became the U.S. ambassador to Austria, set the world record for intercollegiate single-scull rowing in 1876?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/April. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Charles Spencer Francis.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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Francis in 1906

... that Charles Spencer Francis (pictured) served in the same diplomatic roles as his father, John M. Francis, did? Source: "His father, John M. Francis, was also at one time Ambassador to Austria-Hungary [...] in 1870 ... his father, then United States Minister to Greece. He [the son] was appointed Minister to Greece [...] in 1900 ..." [1]
- ALT1:... that Charles Spencer Francis (pictured) followed the footsteps of his father, John M. Francis, in both journalism and diplomacy? Source: [2]

Reviewed: Review not necessary — less than 5 DYKs.

Created by Javert2113 (talk). Self-nominated at 03:07, 9 March 2020 (UTC).[reply]

I would suggest that more context about Francis be added to the hooks: it is not really unusual or even uncommon that children of diplomats would go on to become diplomats themselves. I would advise proposing hooks that focus specifically on Francis's diplomatic career, independent of his father. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 13:11, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, perhaps ALT2: ... that Charles Spencer Francis, a U.S. diplomat, set the world record for intercollegiate single-scull rowing while at Cornell University? Something like that, perhaps? — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 17:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That actually sounds much better and more unusual, although there's something that needs to be clarified: was it the world record in general, or only for intercollegiate sports? I've also linked to single scull as I don't think it's a term that general audiences would be familiar with. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:10, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, just intercollegiate, per his NYT obituary. Blast, sorry that this DYK is such a pickle, Narutolovehinata5. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 02:31, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's still okay even if it was simply intercollegiate, ALT2 will just need to be revised accordingly. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 03:11, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Made the change. (Appreciate the formatting fix, Mandarax!) — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 12:54, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds good. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 04:01, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful. Thank you so much! — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 12:49, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Article is new enough, long enough, adequately sourced. Unable to check for close paraphrasing due to technical issues with Earwigs, but I am assuming good faith for the sources provided. ALT2 is the best option; AGF on sourcing as the NYT source is paywalled on my end. No QPQ needed. The article wording could need some brushing up: the phrase The diplomatic life was not done with him yet does not sound formal or encyclopedic and may need to be rephrased. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 01:08, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- All right, I'll make it sound stiff. (I kid.) — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 12:15, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Javert2113: Thanks, I think the article looks a lot better now. I could suggest that ALT2 be slightly rephrased to emphasize that his record was set when he was still a student, like perhaps mentioning "while at Cornell University" before "diplomat" or making it clear that he wasn't a diplomat yet at the time but became one later. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All right. Made the change — ALT2: "... that U.S. diplomat Charles Spencer Francis, while a student at Cornell University, set the world record for intercollegiate single-scull rowing". Thank you for your help, again! — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 11:37, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that sounds better. However, it could probably still be revised further since it can be easy to misinterpret the hook as meaning that he was already a diplomat while a student. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 12:13, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2: "... that Cornell University student Charles Spencer Francis, later the United States Ambassador to Austria, set the world record for intercollegiate single-scull rowing"? — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 20:34, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Almost there, just needs to specify the year to make it clear that this isn't a recent record. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. So: ALT2: "... that, in 1876, Cornell University student Charles Spencer Francis, later the United States Ambassador to Austria, set the world record for intercollegiate single-scull rowing"? — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 17:12, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The wording is still a little awkward but I think that can be worked on in prep. Otherwise I think we can be good to go with ALT2. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 04:18, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

world record in intercollegiate single scull

What does "setting the world record in intercollegiate single scull competition in 1876" mean? The DYK hook says "set the world record for intercollegiate single-scull rowing in 1876". The source for that is behind a paywall.

Does it mean the fastest time to row a certain distance? If so, the distance should be stated, otherwise it's "a world record", not "the world record".
Did he set an absolute world record or a world record for college students or a world record for intercollegiate events? How much international competition and record-keeping was there in 1876? Or was it retrospectively recogfnised as a record by a later generation of international record-keepers? Maybe he just set a US intercollegiate record that was faster than the contemporary Oxbridge record and so promoted unilaterally to the status of world record.

jnestorius^(talk) 15:32, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, jnestorius. I've taken the liberty of copying my response from Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors: 'To be clear, the source for this claim, from 1924, says the following: "In 1876 he [Francis] won the intercollegiate sculling championship at Saratoga Lake and established a world's college record of 13:42 that still stands." I admit, I may have simplified it a bit. As for the substantive questions, I'm afraid I don't know enough about rowing to answer them. Please let me know if you have any further questions or corrections.' To add a bit to it: I'm afraid it does need clarification. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 16:00, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]