Talk:Charles E. Apgar

call sign

In the April 10, 1913 station list the call 2MM had not yet been assigned.[1] Apgar is licensed with 2MM in the (July 1) 1913, 1914,[2] and 1915 lists, but 2MM is omitted from 1916.[3] The 1917-18 lists were not published due to the war. In 1919 2MM had been reassigned to Frank M. Soden.[4]

The ARRL claims he used 2MN[5][6] which must be a typo, as other names are given for that call during the pre and post war years. In 1915 Philander H. Betts was 2MN.[7]

The Aug. 25, 1940 Boston Globe cites W2MN in Radio Amateurs Already Battling Fifth Column but this refers to his 1915 station. This article is reprinted verbatim in the New York Daily Herald on Sep. 29, 1940. The NYT (1950) obituary ref also claims that he was operating W2MN in 1915, which is clearly contradicted by the official gov't lists above. W2MM first appears in 1931, not assigned to Apgar, and W2MN is unassigned.

I've searched through a number of lists and haven't yet found Apgar in the post WWI years. --mikeu ^talk 18:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC) (updated: --mikeu ^talk 20:58, 25 December 2019 (UTC))

Marconi

Apgar was published in this reference which states that it is "By and for Marconi Employees." Employment by Marconi is not listed in any obituaries. I removed the statement from the article until I can confirm. --mikeu ^talk 19:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

References

Proper name

All the references that I've seen refer to him (or he refers to himself) as "Charles E. Apgar" or he styles his name "Chas. E. Apgar." Sources don't refer to him as "Charles Apgar" nor do they spell out the middle name "Emory." I've moved the page with Charles Apgar as a redirect here. --mikeu ^talk 21:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Poor sources

Moving unreliable external links to talk. --mikeu ^talk 16:32, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Charles E. Apgar - "Wireless Wizard"
• Recordings by Charles Apgar at Arcane Radio Trivia
• The History of Magnetic Recording (page 6) at University of San Diego

DYK?

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 22:42, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that amateur radio operator Charles E. Apgar made early recordings of radio transmissions including covert messages that exposed espionage during World War I?
  Sources:
  "Charles E. Apgar, Helped Trap Spies: Intercepted Radio Signals Guiding U-Boats in 1915". New York Herald Tribune. August 19, 1950.
  "Charles E. Apgar, Radio Expert, 86; Jersey 'Ham' Operator Dies – Recorded Code Messages From Sayville Station in 1915". New York Times. August 19, 1950. p. 12.
  Hogg, F.S. (December 1950). "Notes and Queries – Obituary: Mr. Charles E. Apgar". Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada. 44: 247. Bibcode:1950JRASC..44..247H.

• Reviewed: I still have to review another nomination and will post this here once it's done.

Dęblin–Irena Ghetto --mikeu ^talk 17:56, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

5x expanded by Mu301 (talk). Self-nominated at 07:27, 29 December 2019 (UTC).

• Article was 5x expanded (1649B to 16KB). No concerning pings on Earwigs and no close paraphrasing. Hook is interesting, cited, and short enough for DYK; AGF on offline sources. Please ping me once you've completed your QPQ and I'll pass this nomination. Morgan695 (talk) 16:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

@Morgan695: Thanks. --mikeu ^talk 17:56, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Good to go. Morgan695 (talk) 19:34, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

"First" or "earliest" recordings

References claim that his recordings ere either the "first permanent record" or the "earliest recordings" of radio signals. It is possible that this could be true. In Sept. 1915 it was stated that there were published reports "during the past year" that Maconi had been installing dictaphones in ship stations. Apgar's work appears to predate these reports. I've refrained from including them in the article until I can find better sources. Ford looks reliable but it is merely a note in a card catalog. Perversity mentions it only in passing with a footnote to Apgar's account which makes no such claim. I'm leaving these notes here for future reference in case someone wants to followup on the claims. --mikeu ^talk 20:37, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

References

IMO, based on Gernsback in The Perversity of Things, you could have the article say that "Apgar has been credited with making the first permanent record of a wireless message". It's a way of avoiding a flat statement of fact, and instead reporting that reliable sources said Apgar was responsible for this achievement. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. I added a note. --mikeu ^talk 18:41, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Uncontroversial citations in lead

Hi, all those uncontroversial cites should be removed from the lead and placed later in the article. Yoninah (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I cleaned up most of the lead. I'll take a closer look at the remaining citations. --mikeu ^talk 23:38, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Charles E. Apgar/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 16:03, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Criteria

1. Well-written

Prose clear/concise/understandable Y

Spelling/Grammar Y

MOS lead Y

MOS layout Y Not standard for a biography, but I can see your logic.

2. Verifiable

No OR Y - One CN is all

No COPYVIO Y

List of references properly formatted Y

Inline citations from reliable sources Y

3. Broad in coverage

Covers main aspects Y

Stays on topic Y

4. Neutral Y

5. Stable Y

6. Illustrated if possible

Media tagged for copyright status Y

Media relevant Y

Comments

Infobox I'd recommend moving the citations for his dates of birth/death into the text and out of the infobox. People looking for verification look for the citations in the text, not the infobox.

 Done --mikeu ^talk 00:09, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Biography Could we mention his date of birth in the biography, especially since we mention his date of death? Also, the usual formula for a biography is "early life-career-retirement/death-legacy", but this one has the entire biography first, then the main career. Not a big deal, but this layout isn't particularly common in biographies.

 Done (first part) I did struggle with how to arrange the layout. He didn't earn income from his amateur radio work beyond the compensation for the recordings which only lasted a few weeks. So I didn't include his radio hobby as part of his career employment. His biography is not well documented beyond the Sayville story. --mikeu ^talk 00:09, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Amateur radio "(see Wireless recordings)" - Is this parenthetical reference to the very next section necessary? If so, probably better as a note than inserting directly into the text.

 Done No, I don't think this is needed. Removed. --mikeu ^talk 01:06, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

"which by this time was using the callsign WHB" - The applicable part of the source states: "I heard O. H. X (now W. H. B.) Seagate and one other station." This does not appear to address the statement made in the article. The statement in the article is for an event in 1913 (first recording), while this is about Apgar's first transmission heard, in 1910. Citation that directly addresses this needed.

The last paragraph at the end of page 337 and continuing on 338 states the 1913 date of his first recording which is the New York Herald station. There are two sections that mention the Herald. I could include this Herald story (orginal behind a paywall, reprint at https://earlyradiohistory.us/1917WHB.htm) which describes the station changing call sign. I also corrected a typo OHN to the correct OHX. I removed the quote from the citation as the scan of the documents is available online. The quote might be confusing as that source is cited multiple times. --mikeu ^talk 00:09, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Encoded messages You use the example of "Frederick Chappel" signify the name of a submarine, but the source has "Chappell". Is this variation an accident or intentional?

 Done That was a typo. Fixed. --mikeu ^talk 00:09, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Do we have to have all of these notices to "see photo"?

 Done Removed. --mikeu ^talk 00:09, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

"It was captioned "The Radio Detective Who Unfathomed the Famous 'Nauen Buzz'" and the description read:" I'd recommend moving the citation to after the block quote, to make it clear that the quote is cited.

 Done --mikeu ^talk 03:43, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Images - Do we really need two images of the Sayville tower? I think the actual picture is the more applicable one as opposed to the magazine cover.

I think so. There was quite a bit of anti-German sentiment during this era and I think that the extra image portrays this well. It shows an aspect of the controversy about the interpretation that goes beyond the text. I'm not very invested in this but I do think it adds to the page. --mikeu ^talk 03:43, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

The references appear to be good, that's all I'm concerned about. Hog Farm (talk) 22:28, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Everything looks good to me now, I'll pass it is a GA. Hog Farm (talk) 02:15, 17 February 2020 (UTC)