Talk:Charles, Duke of Vendôme

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Duke of Bourbon

Did he ever hold this title? I thought Francis I confiscated it after the death of Suzanne de Bourbon. Michaelsanders 11:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, he didn't. According to Velde, it was confiscated in 1527 at the Duke's death. It was recreated the same year for Louise of Savoy, who died a few years later, then in 1544 for Charles II de Valois, Duke of Orléans (d. 1545), 1566 for the future Henry III of France, and in 1661 to the Condé. Choess 16:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong Charles de Bourbon

This Charles III, Duke of Bourbon was married to Suzanne and fought at Marignano. I have removed the information that pertains to that Charles de Bourbon. If a reference is found that places Charles of Bourbon, Duke of Vendôme at the battle of Marignano, then it should be restored. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kansas Bear (talk · contribs)

I have an answer to your 15 year old question. Knecht (2011) in the volume Les Conseillers de François Ier" pg 167 "François Ier écrit à sa mère le soir de sa victoire, «tout fait bonne chère, je commencerai par moi et mon frère le connétable, par M. de Vendôme, par M. de Saint-Pol, M. de Guise, le maréchal de Chabannes...» "

Combine this extract alongside the admittedly very vintage Anselme de Sainte-Marie tome 1, page 328 "suivit à la conquête du duché de Milan et se trouva à la bataille de Marignan, où il est son cheval blessé de trois coups de pique"

I am inclined to trust Sainte-Marie on this due to the letter Knecht has cited. sovietblobfish (talk) 22:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the most full account of Vendôme's participation in the battle (as both of these are very brief) would probably come from Essai sur l'histoire des comtes et ducs de Vendôme by L. A. Hallopeau, but sadly I don't have this particular work. sovietblobfish (talk) 22:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Essai sur l'histoire des comtes et ducs de Vendome is somewhat viewable via google books.

I did find this, but the author is a Stefaan Missinne and it is published by Cambridge Scholars publishing(which is a possible unreliable source).

Does Knecht give any more context to Francis' victory? --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, apologies, I cut the passage a little tightly.

The wider context

"Novara ouvre ses portes et La Palice est nommé son gouverneur. Ce rôle n'empêcha pas de participer à la bataille de Marignan où il se fait remarquer encore une fois par sa vaillance «et Dieu merci» François Ier écrit a sa mère le soir de sa victoire, «tout fait bonne chère, je commencerai par moi et mon frère le connétable, par M. de Vendôme, par M. de Saint-Pol, M. de Guise, le maréchal de Chabannes(17)...»

Après cet éclatant succès, les Français occupent Milan."

The reference for that letter of François' is at the bottom of the page (17) - Nouvelle collection de mémoires pour servir à l'histoire de France depuis le XIII siècle jusqu'à la fin du XVIIIe... Tome Cinquième J.F Michaud et J-J-F Poujoulat, Paris 1836

sovietblobfish (talk) 09:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Knecht source looks good. I'm rather skittish around 19th century references, unless that is all I can find.--Kansas Bear (talk) 21:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have now got access to the Hallopeau work (1929) @Kansas Bear:

Here is what he has to say about the battle pg 32-33

"Charles de Bourbon-Vendôme accompagne François Ier à la conquête du duché de Milan. Marchant dans «la bataille» que «le Roy menoit», il part à la fin de juillet, passe par Grenoble, franchit les Alpes au mois d'août, et arrive dans le Milanais, défendu par les Suisses «Monseigneur de Vendosme» se signale aux journées de Marignan (13 et 14 septembre 1515), où son cheval est «blessé en deux ou trois endrois, de coups de picque (1)» Dans la soirée du 13 «monsieur de Vandosme, avecques le Jeune Adventureaux, qui sçavoit le langage allemand, rallia les lansquenets, tellement que le roy en eust bien-tôt autour de luy bien quatre mille...(2)»

Cette grande victoire livre tout le Milanais à l'armée française. Le 23 octobre, notre duc escorte le roi à son entrée dans Milan:"

The two footnotes are to the works of Martin du Bellay, which is one of the primary literary sources of this period. I'm satisfied sovietblobfish (talk) 13:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. That works. Hallopeau was at least published in the 20th century. --Kansas Bear (talk) 13:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]