Talk:Chan Sze Chi

Notability

(responding to request at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China § Draft:Chan Sze Chi - notable?) I'd say at first blush the subject seems notable, but I agree that the sources provided don't appear to establish that clearly.

According to hdl:10579/1666 (Leggieri, 2012), the subject was a cofounder with Leung Man-tao et al of zh:牛棚書院 (p. 11). Leggieri goes on to describe more of the subject's activities, all of it in Italian.

I get tons of ghits for his name, like these articles aggregated by inmedia HK, Li 2010 and Lai 2011 in the Hong Kong Christian Times, this 2018 article from the Singdao Times (via Yahoo news HK, no time to dig up original), this 2020 interview at Mingpao (different to the 2016 Mingpao source in the article), and a bunch of others.

Gbooks returns mentions in at least ISBN 9789622089167 (2012), ISBN 9789866131028 (2011), and ISBN 9789628911509 (2008). There are others, but also a lot of false positives for an earlier person with the same name.

I have to go to work and don't have time to assess essentially any of these sources as to whether or not they contribute to establishing notability, much less look around for what kind of impact the subject and his work have had in the field of Christian theology in Hong Kong, etc.

I'm of the opinion that this article can definitely be rescued, but a bit more work is necessary than just translating zh:陳士齊 with the same sourcing, as appears to have been done here (without the necessary Template:Translated page to satisfy attribution under CC-BY-SA licensing).

Courtesy pings Hanyangprofessor2, Yangpeifu, SafariScribe, in case anyone has further input. I cannot commit to working on this article myself, and am not a subject matter expert here. Folly Mox (talk) 11:04, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh right I should probably mention I didn't even begin to look for English language sources. Folly Mox (talk) 11:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox Thanks. I think this article should be published, and if anyone has any further concerns, they can be resolved through community input at AfD. I never liked the AfC process gives random editors de facto veto powers, with a lot of passable content declined and deleted, often for spurious reasons that are not even double checked. _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 02:42, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

This certainly seems to be a case where {{sources exist}}. I'm not sure which editors work on rescuing {{promising draft}}s or WP:G13 soon now that DGG is no longer with us.

As mentioned, this isn't my topic area, and I'm also no expert on WP:N, but I can at least look at some of the sources I've linked above with an eye to format them into usable references and throw them in a ==Further reading== subheading or a {{refideas}} on this talkpage, which should allow for a move to mainspace.

Incidentally, I did do a brief search for English language sources whilst on break at work yesterday, and the only tab I seem to have opened from the search results was this 2015 article, which the URL seems to portray as a blog post (although that might just be how the publisher's site is structured rather than a taxonomic judgement about the article's importance to the magazine). Folly Mox (talk) 14:22, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox Sadly I cannot open https://news.mingpao.com/pns/%e5%89%af%e5%88%8a/article/20160412/s00005/1460398393459/59%e6%ad%b2%e3%80%8c%e9%bd%8bsir%e3%80%8d-%e5%ad%b8%e7%94%9f%e7%9c%bc%e4%b8%ad%e5%a5%bd%e8%80%81%e5%b8%ab-%e7%86%b1%e8%a1%80%e8%ac%9b%e5%b8%ab-%e7%9d%a5%e7%9d%a8%e4%b8%80%e7%94%9f - returns an error for me (this is the first source in the article and one of the two that look independent and sigcov). The other source is Dr. Chen Shiqi outlines political participation (christianweekly.net) and I think it is ok for RS/SIGCOV, if not stellar. If we can find one more source that meets SIGCOV I think this can be moved to the mainspace, perhaps with sources exist template tagged. _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 04:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not able to open that particular URL either, which appears to have suffered some manner of copypaste corruption (the URL looks clean on the zh.wp article). The content is still not at that URL – although I feel like I saw it come up in a web search the other day – but I've added an archive snapshot that works. Folly Mox (talk) 04:37, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox Thanks. I think 59-year-old "Sai Sir" A good teacher in the eyes of students Enthusiastic Lecturer - 20160412 - CULTURE & LEISURE - Ming Pao Our Lifestyle works, and now we have to RS with SIGCOV. Since the Draft reviewer (nor the student) still hasn't found the time reply, I think we can publish this article per consensus here that the subject is likely notable.

Can you do the honors (Although, I assume you can choose the correct name of the subject? I assume Chan Sze Chi is not the correct way to render his name in English... _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 05:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the fridae.asia probably also provides RS + IS + SIGCOV, and I agree that GNG is met now.

It's pretty obvious to me, having read through some of the sources, that based on all the press coverage the subject got for his participation in the Occupy HKBU movement and his subsequent dismissal, that he was already a fairly public figure, and we don't really have much information as to why, at least not in the article.

I assume it has something to do with his outspoken left-wing politics and his support for queer rights from his position as a Christian of some flavour (he claims to have been the first Christian theologian in Hong Kong to support LGBT acceptance, which I haven't included because I haven't seen a secondary source that verifies the claim yet).

If you're in a hurry, I can work on fixing up the remaining 普通話 and setting it correctly to 粵 pronunciation, but I'd kinda like to do a more thorough assessment of some earlier / book sources to see if we can establish why he was already well known before his forced retirement.

As to the article title, we have Leung Man-tao and Chan Koonchung back-to-back, and MOS:CHINA is unclear on preferred hyphenation and casing of Cantonese names AFAICT. The English C² article does use Chan Sze Chi, but I'll look into it more. Folly Mox (talk) 14:18, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox I don't think we are in much hurry. Thanks for rescuing this. I think we can include the claim he makes with clear attribution that it is a claim he made. _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 04:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

HKBU staff profile also uses Chan Sze Chi rather than other possibilities like Chan Sze-chi or Chan Szechi.

I've tried to eliminate hanyu pinyin where the publisher is known to be in Hong Kong. I know practically nothing useful about Cantonese, and have been doing naive substitutions based on zdic.net. I think they might use Jyutping instead of the more recognisable (in the West) Yale romanization of Cantonese, but I literally can't tell.

Have tried to normalise Cantonese names to the form Surname Fore-name, but the only source I have that uses any transliteration is Kwan and Choi 2012, viewable at the gbooks preview. WP:ZHNAME seems to recommend this form for Hong Kong people, although not super strongly.

I haven't been able to verify every bibliographic detail for the ==Selected publications== translated from the zh.wp article, and have retained them as probably correct. Pretty sure everything in running prose is properly sourced. Folly Mox (talk) 15:53, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Summary for potential reviewers

I'm tryna mainspace this today. My take is that the following sources contribute strongliest to GNG (in order cited): Chen 2009, Wong 2016, Chan 2018, Kwan 2012. Folly Mox (talk) 15:38, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox Many thanks. I can only hope (as the instructor) that the student who started this article will review your excellent and hard work, and learn from it. @Yangpeifu _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 06:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I could have done a lot more (there are way more sources) if this had been a subject I was genuinely interested in or more closely aligned with my topic area of expertise. Hopefully in the future someone will come along with more interest in contemporary Hong Kong, Christianity in China, etc, and develop the article further.

I see Yangpeifu has been busy with plenty of other article creations since this one: Wang Baiyuan, Hsieh Nan-kuang, You Mijian, Huang Chaoqin, Lin Dui, Liu Shuqin, Formosa (magazine), Wu Kunhuang, Xie Lifa, Taiwan Daily News, Zhang Wenhuan, He Delai, Ye Huocheng, and Ni Chiang-huai. Hopefully their editing prowess and attention to detail have been increasing naturally over time (I haven't clicked through to any of these articles).

Their edit creating this present article was only 45 minutes after their previous creation, which doesn't necessarily indicate anything on its own (the creator could have been drafting it offline for some time), but could be an indication of trading off thoroughness and care for speed. The only other articles in their contribution history that exhibit such temporal adjacency are Taiwan Daily News with Zhang Wenhuan (72 minutes apart), and Formosa (magazine) with Wu Kunhuang (83 minutes apart).

In any case though, they seem to be legitimately engaged with the project as a constructive content creator, the most important type of editor we have. I can only assume your expert instruction has facilitated this student becoming a true community asset, so thank you for that. ☺️ Folly Mox (talk) 16:48, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Name

I would never claim to be an expert on how to render Chinese names in English, but some sources do seem to refer to him as "Chen Shiqi"? Should this spelling be added to the lead? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:05, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Leggieri does this; which other sources are you seeing that use the Modern Standard Chinese reading for his name? I've restored the typical boilerplate parenthetical to the lead sentence. There's a way to do this within {{infobox person}} with |module={{infobox Chinese|child=yes, but I don't have time to implement that before work. Folly Mox (talk) 12:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)