Talk:Cave Clan/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

NPOV

After coming across this article whilst doing a routine clean up of Australian fringe and underground culture I found this to be in breach of Wiki's NPOV policies. I am removing the offending paragraphs rather than posting an NPOV call on it as this article has no discussion base and is therefore not worth the time of higher administrators.

The organization has branches in most states of Australia and in a few other countries. Unlike traditional caving groups they do not limit their activities to natural cavities.

Non-NPOV, opinion of the author, Cave Clan is primarily a Melbourne and Sydney based group with a chapter opening more recently in Adelaide. Whilst cave clan members may travel the globe, this does not indicate they have opened a new chapter by exploring with international urbex groups.

There have also been schisms, with groups splitting off from the Cave Clan, though none of these splinter groups seem to have made as great an impact.

Again a non-NPOV opinion of the author.

The organisation does not vandalise areas it explores, and has an excellent safety record; no one has ever been killed during Cave Clan activities.

• Below section edited

I am removing this as the Cave Clan are notorious for their drain graffiti in Sydney and Melbourne and are actively persued by the police forces of afforementioned states for their behaviour.

Also, the citation of the safety record of excellence should also be removed as part of this as it is false and misleading, there have been numerous accidents involving Cave Clan members, from one being hit whilst emerging from a manhole in Sydney, to more recently a month ago when Sydney Cave Clan broke into Australia's Wonderland (theme park) and committed break and enter on one of the rides, the 'Space Probe' in an attempt to abseil it which led to one man falling ten meters and breaking his spine in numerous places.

The abovementioned information is entirely incorrect. As such it is as much NPOV as the NPOV this user is trying to correct.

• End Edit.

The Cave Clan has been the subject of many unfounded rumours throughout its existence, including allegations of criminal activity and ritual behaviour. These rumours have all proven to be baseless.

The relevance of this passage is moot and will also be removed.

The Cave Clan publishes a photocopied zine named "Il Draino". This zine may be obtained from the Cave Clan or from various alternative and countercultural bookshops in Australia, and includes photographs taken in underground formations. Additionally, stickers with the Cave Clan's postal address (PO Box 268, Abbotsford, Victoria, Australia) and the pseudonyms of Clan members appear from time to time in public spaces. It is rumoured that the Cave Clan or some of its members are connected to the profusion of stickers reading "This Is A Heavy Product". In Il Draino and interviews, Cave Clan members have claimed that they are merely the latest in a long tradition of Australian urban and underground exploration, dating back decades before the founding of the organisation.

Advertising and a reference to illegal activity, also Cave Clan is not a registered or aknowledged organisation in Australia.

Jachin 21:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• If you have citations of accidents, by all means put them in rather than merely deleting content. And it doesn't look like advertising; there is no information there that is not publicly available on the organisation's site. Furthermore, Australia, as a liberal democracy, does not require organisations to be registered to not be considered illegal.

You may disapprove of the Cave Clan, but that does not make acknowledging its existence against Wikipedia policy. Acb 12:05, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Acb, having an organisation list as a running incident report of the organisation is futile. In the best interests of Wikipedia a NPOV and accurate article should be provided, not a generic rambling advert for an organisation or group, that is what this article was.

It was up for a clean-up, the clean-up was carried out. By reverting the article and adding a mere quip in the discussion page does nothing to the fact that the clean-up will be reverted until more relevant information is provided in a manner which meets a better standard.

In that case, please justify your reasoning for:

• deleting information about the Cave Clan's long-running zine (which has been established since the 1980s, and thus is notable in any discussion of the organisation)
• deleting information about the This Is A Heavy Product stickers, which are notable enough to have their own article.

Furthermore, your edits have reduced the quality of the article by removing context (i.e., before "One pioneer of this tradition"; the edited article does not say anything about the tradition).

As such, I am reverting the article to a previous form (with edits to make it more NPOV-compliant). Acb 14:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Acb, your edit of the article is whimsical at best. It's purely a reinstatement of the same details all over again, the paraphrasing is minimal. I will address each issue as written: -

Founded in Melbourne by three teenagers, the Cave Clan has been in operation since January 26, 1986; -- References?

• This could be changed to "claimed to be founded". Though I have seen issues of Il Draino from the 1980s (printed on a Commodore dot-matrix printer), so the general age of the group can be shown to be in that range, and there's no reason that they would lie about a specific date. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

though the Cave Clan remains the best-known Australian urban exploration group -- No references of supportive evidence, purely opinion based.

• OK, "best known" -> "most prominent". On the weight of media references (there have been lots of references to the Cave Clan in publications like The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald), and profile (there have been prominent Cave Clan stickers in Melbourne since the 1980s, which counts as high profile).

In its publications and radio interviews, Cave Clan members have claimed that they are merely the latest in a long tradition of Australian urban and underground exploration, dating back decades before the founding of the organisation. -- Again, merely an instance of opinion with no factual evidence.

• It is a fact that they have claimed this in publications and radio interviews. The veracity or otherwise of the claims is another matter, but IMHO it is a noteworthy claim. If anybody knows about Australian urban exploration traditions, it would be people involved in such. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The existence of such a tradition would be in character with the Australian larrikin ideal. -- Opinion of author, I don't see how it has anything to do with the larrikin ideal what so ever, there is also no substantiating evidence linking Cave Clan to such.

• You don't see how the tradition of going where one is not supposed to in cities on a whim, with disregard for the established rules and authorities, has to do with larrikinism? I think it's pretty obvious. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan publishes a photocopied zine named "Il Draino", which has been in publication since the 1980s. This zine may be found in various alternative and countercultural bookshops in Australia, and includes photographs taken in underground formations. -- Vanity publication of photocopied rags isn't considered something worth mentioning when dealing with groups, for example, many religious groups put out professionally produced works promoting their organisations beliefs and so on, yet it's significance of reference in their articles is moot and trivial.

• The "photocopied rag" has been going since the 1980s. I have seen evidence of this. And other "photocopied rags", or zines as they're known, are notable enough for Wikipedia. There is nothing in Wikipedia policies restricting its remit to "official" or "legitimate" organisations. As such, I assert that, in reference to an article about the Cave Clan, a photocopied zine the organisation has run for over a decade is relevant. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan is best known for printing stickers (typically on business sticker stock, using a computer printer) and attaching them to public surfaces. The stickers often bear Cave Clan's postal address and the pseudonyms of Clan members appear. Some stickers also bear the names of ostensible factions of the Cave Clan, such as "Grumpy Old Drainers". - What Cave Clan is 'best known' for would not be stickers, from my reading on the organisation before doing the clean up of this article it appears they are better known for their vandalism of historical sites and their subterranian graffiti.

• Firstly, saying that they're "best known for vandalism" is more POV than saying that they're "best known for stickers". The stickers are more prominently visible, and "vandalism" is subjective. The purpose of Wikipedia is to describe, not denounce.

Secondly, do you have citations on incidents of "vandalism of historic sites"? If so, please put them in the "controversy" section. (Please do; the article needs more informed criticism of the group.) Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

It is also rumoured that the Cave Clan or some of its members are connected to the profusion of stickers reading "This Is A Heavy Product", though these differ significantly from the usual Cave Clan stickers. -- Rumours have no purpose or substantiating reason to be included in this article. Wikipedia is based on fact, not 'rumours'.

Past Clannies have been held in underground chambers. -- Ambiguous comment not worth including in the article.

• You're right; it is a bit redundant. Anyway, it's gone now. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan claims to have an excellent safety record (one rule, printed on stickers, is "when it rains, no drains"), though this has been disputed. Cave Clan members have made statements discouraging inexperienced youth from going into drains. -- Two months ago Cave Clan members broke into a closed down amusement park in Sydney which resulted in one man falling and breaking his spine in multiple places, they then attempted to move this person and get him to climb down to avoid an incident with the authorities. I think rather than exhibiting each and every incident where someone has been greviously injured would be too verbose and instead this paragraph should be removed, as it originally was in the clean-up.

• Do you have a reference for this incident? If so, please put it in. I think that debate of the Cave Clan's safety record is relevant. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan has publicly distanced itself from vandalism; however, Clan members have written graffiti in drains and related areas. Some Cave Clan members have been involved in the graffiti scene; the most notable of these is 1980s aerosol artist "Hugh Dunit". -- Again, publically distancing itself is opinion,

• Stating that it has publicly distanced itself is fact.

it is notorious for it's vandalism which is evident in almost every photograph to be found on cave clan related sites.

• That looks rather like a point of view. "vandalism" is a subjective term.

It's connection to the '1980's aerosol artist has no references or sustainable connection and therefore again is opinion. Considering the organisation 'started' in the late 80's one would assume all reference to '1980's is also moot and appears more to be self glorification.

• How do you mean "self-glorification"? Hugh Dunit's "pieces" have been visible in Melbourne since the 1980s (there was one in the Corner Hotel car park, for example), and have been pretty prominent, and sometime later, his name ended up on Cave Clan stickers and publications, and Cave Clan logos next to Dunit's pieces/tags. For an article on underground culture, this is pretty strong primary evidence. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan has been the subject of many rumours throughout its existence, including allegations of criminal activities and ritual behaviour. These rumours have not been substantiated. -- The only place I have found allegations of 'rumours' about these things is on the Cave Clan websites and in related interviews on talk back radio stations, et cetera. It is opinion only, totally ubsubstantiated and appears more of an instance of the organisation wishing to appear more illustrious and deeper than it is. Again, not something for Wikipedia.

• OK, I'll give you this one.

This article is seriously lacking, it appears more to be a vanity article by various group members than a serious Wikipedia entry.

• There are bits of that there. Though one has to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Jachin 06:25, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, I have no connection with the Cave Clan, other than having read a few copies of Il Draino and heard interviews on PBS. I am as concerned about providing an impartial and complete article about the Cave Clan, which IMHO constitutes a notable part of Australian underground culture (in both senses of the word). The thing I disagree with is the approach of cutting out most of the article; when dealing with underground subjects, one does not have the luxury of having official sources to work with. The great strength of Wikipedia is its ability to cover subjects under the radar of more traditional and centrally controlled publications, and it would be absurd to reject information about an underground cultural phenomenon on the grounds that the traditional media have not acknowledged it. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

i've been watching this article for quite some time and agree with the npov / relevancy / uncited issues youve raised jachin. don't take rv's to heart, you're doing a great job cleaning up some of the fringe articles it seems. keep up the good work mate, i'll rv the changes back to your last peer review in 24 hours if there's no functional contributory address by Acb on the topic clearing the above points up. looks like a vanity page to me by a group of mates. Adam249 08:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• See above. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleaned up some mis-information & added content.

BB

Sorry, don't know how to add text :(

The website that is used as referencing (including the emails it shows) are all more than ten years old, heavily edited, and taken out of context.

The Il Drainos are all about ten years or older (Il Draino has not been a Cave Clan newsletter for a few years).

The whole "running" thing was a joke. There have been gay people in the Cave Clan way before there was uer.ca. I openly joke with gay friends I have and they dish it out, however I also understand that we have matured a lot since the late 80s and early 90s.

It's also rather convenient how there are no scans of the dozens of articles where I am paid out on or teased. Half the comments that are referred to as "harrassment" were made amongst friends.

The funny thing is that one of the reasons Felon was kicked out of the Clan is because he was homophobic (circa 1996).

Anyway, I'm losing my train of thought.

I'm just trying to say that the 'homophobic' entry is out of date, taken out of context, and also takes humour amongst a small bunch of friends and associates and tries to make us look like a branch of the Nazi party.

I'll delete it whenever I see it. I'm sick of trying to 'edit' it.

Cheers,

Doug —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.108.57.147 (talk) .

Cave Clan Logo

Hey Doug, I dumped the Modern Cave Clan logo on the page as it seemed like the right thing to do. However feel free to scratch it :) .... --Fec 06:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Fec, Looks like someone else added it back. They must like the Inner Circle version? ;) Doug

Hey man, na what i meant by "dumped" was that i put it up. The modern version was done by a Sydney member called TeaCup a couple of years back. Just thought you may want it up here. If you have a good copy of the old version, you should post it up too. BTW, TeaCuP said way back that he's happy for everyone to distribute his work however they see fit. p.s. when TeaCup originally designed it, he didn't have any ulterior motives in mind, i think he just wanted to do something for the clan and his best skill was design. --Fec 07:30, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah, cool. I get you. Cheers, Doug.

Merging of Il Draino into Cave Clan

I am going to put my word in that the article Il Draino should be merged into the Cave Clan article as its own header. The magazine was produced soleby the organization, Cave Clan, and is a subset that really does not deserve its own seperate page. Seicer (talk) 17:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

More NPOV

This article seems to get less and less neutral as time goes on. I don't feel that I know enough about the Cave Clan to say what exactly is true and what is false, but there are few facts listed and the article is far from neutral. I am thus tagging it as noncompliant and in need of a clean-up. -- hibou 08:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not having this bullshit blamed on me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.191.168 (talk) .

This article needs sources and facts, as well as a general clean-up -- the controversy section isn't the only one in need of work. Blanking sections you don't agree with doesn't improve the article and I have reverted your changes. Please remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus articles should not be biased either for the Cave Clan or against them. You can read more about bias and NPOV at WP:NPOV. By the way, if you would like to continue editing this article or anything else in Wikipedia, it would help if you created a user account. Thanks. hibou 11:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Prove it or loose it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.10.224.61 (talk) .

Well I've cleaned up the Controversy section and added sources. It would be nice if another wikipedian could take a look at it before the NPOV tag comes down. I've also deleted the following for lack of sources:

The Cave Clan, and Doug / Michael Douglas in particular have had a long standing policy to dominate Urban Exploration in Australia. Tactics used by the Cave Clan include:

• Eradication of information about other Urban Exploration groups, such as the removal of the Wikipedia article about the Sydney Tunnel Rats.
• Discrediting of rival Urban Exploration groups. Providing false information about them. Beating up negative reports about them such as claiming the Sydney Tunnel Rats were part of a Neo Nazi group when one member was caught with Urban Exploration equipment in his car during the Cronulla Riots.
• Discrediting of individual Urban Explorers using several methods such as through the IlDraino magazine, through deliberate and systematic spreading of rumours, graffiti on drain walls, negative comments on web sites, negative comments on web forums and more.
• Deliberate use of innuendo and slurs, claiming that Urban Explorers are gay, child molesters or similar.
• Deliberate discrediting and down playing the achievements of rival Urban Exploration groups and individuals such as falsely claiming that Cave Clan did things first or that the groups or individuals were inspired by Cave Clan activities.
• Threats to harm and threats to kill Urban Explorers. Many of these threats were made against Sydney Urban Explorers including Predator. Doug even attempted to kill Predator, who later published a chilling account of the attempt on his web site cat.org.
• Painting of pictures depicting the death of Urban Explorers.

The Cave Clan have also repeatedly removed negative comment about them from this Wikipedia article, such as removal of reference to their anti-gay activities. Early editions of their Ildraino Magazine contain numerous articles where they vilify gays and attack members of the Sydney and Melbourne Cave Clan. The editor, Doug, makes numerous immature personal attacks against explorers such as Leeon, Edgar, Predator, Alien, Bob, Panic, Gilligan, Ratty and more.

As deletion is a part of the stated controversy, I thought this was worth conserving here. -- hibou 12:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There you go, all refrenced. It's not my job to stick them in neat. I just paste the facts. You can go format that as you wish. Everything verifiable. Go have a look at the links. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.191.179 (talk) .

Ok I'll work on incorporating the information you've added. However please keep in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus should present information neutrally. -- hibou 15:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added much of the information you've provided. The info about graffiti is in the Graffiti section. The info about "Attempts to dominate Urban Exploration in Australia" is in the Controversy section. Some notes & questions:

• for Il Draino condoning tagging... it would be good if the exact date or year(s) were provided.
• you wrote: "Eradication of information about other Urban Exploration groups, such as the removal of the Wikipedia article about the Sydney Tunnel Rats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Acb" but from reading Doug's comments what I understand is that he deleted the link to the Tunnel Rats article, not the article itself.
• Also on the Tunnel Rats: the wikipedia article is about the Vietnam soldiers who went by that name. I presume that the urbex group Tunnel Rats took the name in homage, but their is no article specifically about them. Feel free to create one.
• In relation to the following statements... I have no access to the original article and don't quite understand the situation; I also have no way of telling who is in which group without reading more of the forum than I'd like to. But anyway I'm not sure Wikipedia is the place for who accused who of what.

"Discrediting of rival Urban Exploration groups: Beating up negative reports about them such as claiming the Sydney Tunnel Rats were part of a Neo Nazi group when one member was caught with Urban Exploration equipment in his car during the Cronulla Riots.

"Cave Clan member Siologen states "I dont know for sure if Val of The Tunnel Rats was indeed involved in organised white power groups. Either way he was very stupid doing what he did, and it has been made worse by the fact the media have now started using him as an example and scapegoat." http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=3&threadid=26075&currpage=1&pp#post12"

• & In relation to the following statement... the source you site seems to be a personal conflict between the two people or groups, and doesn't adequately support the statement. Other sources would be needed.

"Deliberate discrediting and down playing the achievements of rival Urban Exploration groups and individuals such as falsely claiming that Cave Clan did things first or that the groups or individuals were inspired by Cave Clan activities. http://www.urbanadventure.org/main/copyright/copyright.htm"

• In relation to Il Draino publishing racist material, you provide no sources.

So I think that's everything. The clean-up tag can probably come down but it would be nice if another Wikipedian could look this over before the NPOV tag comes down too. -- hibou 17:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh well, in all fairness the comments in the cave clan magazine are not necessarily representative of all of the Cave clan. They are mostly representative of Doug. This text file clearly shows that Sydclan didn't get much into IlDraino. http://therealcaveclan.tripod.com/yp55.txt. Probably not a good idea to generalise. Perhaps use "elements of the cave clan"

Shit, a lot of Sydney people have been editing this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.191.10 (talk) .

Sorry, don't know how to add text :(

The website that is used as referencing (including the emails it shows) are all more than ten years old, heavily edited, and taken out of context.

The Il Drainos are all about ten years or older (Il Draino has not been a Cave Clan newsletter for a few years).

The whole "running" thing was a joke. There have been gay people in the Cave Clan way before there was uer.ca. I openly joke with gay friends I have and they dish it out, however I also understand that we have matured a lot since the late 80s and early 90s.

It's also rather convenient how there are no scans of the dozens of articles where I am paid out on or teased. Half the comments that are referred to as "harrassment" were made amongst friends.

The funny thing is that one of the reasons Felon was kicked out of the Clan is because he was homophobic (circa 1996).

Anyway, I'm losing my train of thought.

I'm just trying to say that the 'homophobic' entry is out of date, taken out of context, and also takes humour amongst a small bunch of friends and associates and tries to make us look like a branch of the Nazi party.

I'll delete it whenever I see it. I'm sick of trying to 'edit' it.

Cheers,

Doug —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.108.57.147 (talk) .

Hello Doug --

Let me start by saying that I have no bias for or against the Cave Clan. I don't know any of you personaly. I'm approaching this as a Wikipedia editor trying to write the best possible article.

In regards to the Il Draino references being years old, if you can provide the dates and issue numbers, I'll cite that too. I think the facts will speak for themselves but it's also possible to add something to the affect that these views are no longer held amongst most members of the Cave Clan, etc. If you have something on your website stating that you are not homophobic, sexist, racist, ageist, etc (though these kind of disclamers are more popular in the US I think) we could cite that too.

Basically the opinion here on Wikipedia is to try to let the facts stand for themselves as much as possible. That also means that you can't just summarily delete things you don't agree with, especially without replacing them with anything. The best solution is to "include all different significant theories" -- see WP:NPOV for more info on this and bias. Thanks -- hibou 22:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

why can outlandish claims be refrenced to http://therealcaveclan.tripod.com when after clicking on this refrence this site dosen't exist. It has apparently violated the hosts terms and conditions. talk about bias, fictional sites with fictional refrences, apparently that is ok for wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Contributions/ ([[User talk:|talk]]) 60.224.3.12

- - - -

Howdy Hibou,

Sorry if I sound a bit annoyed, but it's a bit frustrating.

In reply to - "you can't just summarily delete things you don't agree with, especially without replacing them with anything. The best solution is to "include all different significant theories"

It's not that I don't agree with them, it's that they are NOTHING to do with the Cave Clan, and the information source is wrong/taken out of context.

What percentage of the population is homophobic? I bet you the percentage is a lot higher than that of the Cave Clan.

So basically I can make up some fake magazines saying that Coca Cola adds cats piss to its product, set up a crappy website and then use the information in the site as reference.

It's just ridiculous!

Anyone that reads Il Draino knows that it is mostly a parody and not to be taken serious (if you saw the whole mag this would be very obvious).

Most of the people that were “harassed” deserved what they got, but I’m not going to write an explanation for each and every person (7 people out of the thousands that have been in the Cave Clan over the last 20 years)… I won’t satisfy the fool that is spreading this crap – he’s been doing it for more than 5 years now.

You want me to write something to replace what I delete? If I wrote everything that was on par with a joke or someone getting teased, it would take me years to write everything down.

We made up stickers saying we chop people’s fingers off if they don’t put the stickers up… you better add that. One of our members was sentenced for murder in 1989 while another overdosed on heroin in 1990, you better mention that we are known to associate with murderers and junkies. Some of us fart as well so you may want to mention that.

My point is can’t we just report on the facts and keep it to the point of what the Cave Clan is, and not what every single member does or thinks (or what their farts smell like :)?

If you want to say that I made the mildest form of homophobic jokes in the 1980s and early 90s, then make a separate Wiki entry, but please add that I’ve always had gay friends and that I stick up for them more than many people do.

There you go. That’s it. I hope it makes sense because I’m really tired at the moment.

Stay Well,

Doug

PS. The person who set up that Tripod website states that the Cave Clan only stopped being homophobic when UER.ca came about – Out of the hundreds of current members in the Clan about 10 are on UER and only 3 visit the site or post to it so that is also a load of rubbish.

Also (I won't be long now) - I'd like to point out that everything I've done has been in public in my name. It would be good if the person making these accusations would do the same.

- - - -

I just read over the material that the anonymous one wrote above.

I tried to kill Predator... hahaha! If you call grabbing the scruff of someone's shirt trying to kill them, fine.

I would also like to point out that Pred gave as good as he got and that we well and truly sorted out our problems. I hate saying this because he has since died of cancer so he can't respond, but in his book he states that on his last visit he came to Melbourne and visited three people to "say goodbye". I was one of them.

Regarding the people that were "harassed" - "Leeon, Edgar, Predator, Alien, Bob, Panic, Gilligan, Ratty and more." Leeon (Felon) was a racist and homophobe. Edgar was a joke that went too far - I consider myself friends with Edgar nowadays as do most of the people that used to stir him up. Alien was just a personality conflict, but she copped way more stirring than she should have. Bob and Gilligan... you could add another 50 or so people to Bob and Gilligan (including myself) that were made to look (or sound like fools)... to this day we still stir each other up (I've known Gilligan for 18 years and Bob for 12). Ratty. The simple fact was that hardly anyone liked him - it happens. The only "harassment" he received was when he quit he made a shrine and photos of it were published in Il Draino (he tried to make out that the reason he was not liked was because he was gay even thought there were two other gay members at the time).

Tunnel Rats... Nazis... I only know what I hear through the grapevine. I have nothing to do with them so you're way off track there. As far as me (well mainly me) trying to control the scene and ruin other groups - rubbish. Prove it.

As I have said before, everything I say is in my name in the view of everyone that wishes to read it. You could only use all the information from Il Draino (that was taken out of context) because I put my name to it. The handful of people that were kicked out of the Clan due to problems were asked to leave. I don't hide behind my computer.

This whole subject is a total load of rubbish and a waste of time.

Thanks

Doug

Hibou,

the below is not in line with the group and cannot be supported by facts:

Controversy The Cave Clan has been accused of homophobia, specifically in relation to targeting certain members and making anti-gay comments in their newsletter, Il Draino [5]. Certain issues of Il Draino also contained personal attacks, threats, and attempts to discredit other urban explorers or "rival" urban exploration groups [6]. The Cave Clan have stated many times that though they have the word Clan in their name, they have no relation to the Klu Klux Klan and are not in any way racist. The Cave Clan produced a number of stickers stating "The Cave Clan say fuck the Klu Klux Klan," which they put up around Melbourne.

and as quoting Wikipedia's own statement: To be compliant, it must be written from a neutral point of view and must not include unverifiable or unsuitable material, or original research.

- I point specifically to the words unverifiable and unsuitable which you include in your edit without much thought to its actual meaning.

Also to a lesser extent, the references blatantly point to your website (all 5 of them!!! And they point nowhere...) and there clearly is no reference to Cave Clan there, or any information that can be deemed informative to its Wikipedia explanation.

You are obviously trying to give the Cave Clan a bad name from this content, please refrain from doing so. My 'blanking' was a way of removing your ill-informed content and returning it to its original and accepted state, and I will modify any further biased inputs you take based on Wikipedia best practices.

And further reading the first 6-8 paragraphs in this section... they sound like a conversation you had with yourself, signing in and out of Wikipedia and writing in stupid supporting claims to provide as 'evidence' to your postings. Please if you think people are that dumb to accept everything they read as gospel then there's something going on inside of you that's not all there.

Can i ask 'Husond' or another respective Wikipedia admin to remove the protected status so I can now perform minor edits to fix the above as I now know not to 'blanket' out the content, but instead perform these 'minor edits'. Apologies for doing this in the recent past.

Also can I request either DougCC or myself be admin people or the like for this entry (if there is such a thing), so there is in it correct and valid content that correctly reflects The Cave Clan.

Looking forward to further 'talk' and your rebuttal on the above statements. Dmnscar 09:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Another call for the nameless one called J... hibou, c'mon kid let's put this argument to rest by talking it out, about stupid entries like homophobia, personal attacks/threats made, and the childish description of our fight against the kkk... Geesh I feel like i'm back in primary or high school arguing with some demented kid 'you do', 'you are'.

But i'll keep sticking it out, not going to let this get away Dmnscar 10:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

As above writing; hibou is falsely writing stupid entries in this page, especially in the Controversy section. Can this page be unprotected. I don't know the right way to request this page to be unprotected so if this is not sufficient info please let me know. Thanks.

First off, let me state again that I have nothing at all against the Cave Clan. Actually I respect your organization and the ways in which you've expanded the scope of urban exploration. I didn't mean do get caught in the middle of this battle, but here I am. What I've been concerned about, from the beginning, is creating an honest and neutral article.

I understand that you think the article, as it stands now, is biased. I don't know what to do about this: you say one thing, other people say another; I was looking for middle ground, and as you can see above, I've only kept what can be backed up with references. I consider http://www.urbanadventure.org/main/stuff/ildraino/caveclan.htm to be a valid source because it contains scans of the Cave Clan journal Il Draino. I think I've mentioned this before, but it would be great if you guys could site your own sources explicitly stating whatever it is you want to say, i.e. that you're not homophobic, etc. This kind of disclaimer could easily go somewhere on your website and then be quoted on wikipedia.

As for editing the article as it currently stands, or getting it unlocked, not even I can do that. You need to apply to an admin. I am not an admin. You can also apply for mediation, which would bring in a 3rd party wikipedian who would look at all the different edits and sources and points of view and try to help rewrite the article. You can request mediation at WP:RFM. Again, I have nothing against the Cave Clan and only want to see the best possible article written. Thanks -- hibou 19:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The page was protected to prevent edit wars -- the idea is, if nobody can change the page, you're all essentially forced to come on this talk page and discuss things as reasonably as possible. If we're still saying the people we disagree with are "falsely writing stupid entries," it doesn't seem like the sort of reasonable discussion that would lead to consensus about a proper page version. The protection isn't intended to last indefinitely, but it is designed to prevent people reverting up and down the street. I personally would recommend contacting User:Husond (the admin who protected the page), or making a request at the "unprotection" section of WP:RFPP. You can also ask me, and I might be willing to do a "trial unprotect" to see what happens, since it's been awhile, but I'd need to see some commitment to reasonable discussion, first, before looking into that too deeply. Luna Santin 20:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

And I'm sorry Luna Santin, you're trying to go by the Wikipedia ethics and keeping the NPOV alive and well throughout the entries in Wikipedia but for this one page you are being sucked in big time by the highly biased user hibou.

Anyways I'll keep looking around to get this page unprotected, contacting Luna Satin or Husond. Thanks Dmnscar 23:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm starting to repeat myself, but it looks like you're not going to believe me anyway. I am not Jason, that is not my website, I have nothing against the Cave Clan; I have never met any of you and have never begun a law suit against you. I have never even been to Australia. If you don't believe me do an IP check, you'll at least see that I'm not in Australia. You can even go back and read this talk page from start to finish, and you'll see that I've been trying to find some middle ground here, something unbiased. You can easily see that it wasn't me who posted the original 'controversy,' I'm just the person who stood for keeping that which has sources, rather than blanking it. -- hibou 12:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No worries, I'm off my high-horse now, sense is seeping back into me... hehe. Apologies to you hibou for the angry comments as before. As mentioned below in the References section, the CC will work on creating some references to counter and quash the Controversy, it seems simple references (webpages) are what Wikipedia admin people are after more than ever to support what is written in the reference pages, so be it. Cheerio! Dmnscar 13:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)