Talk:Cattle theft in India/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Moving on: Smuggling

The following sentences in the smuggling section are cited to sources that say nothing about cattle theft in India. I have read each source twice and find nothing about the topic of this article. In addition, neither the sentences nor the sources offer counter-claims to claims in the article that had been introduced earlier.

According to The Sunday Guardian, "cattle smuggling is rampant in Bengal, with an estimated 60,000 heads of cattle being smuggled out of India into Bangladesh, every day" in 2015, but the rate of this smuggling has dropped because of rising surveillance at the international border. According to the Bangladeshi newspaper The Daily Star, some of cattle theft operations move the cattle stolen in India across the border into Bangladesh, ahead of festivals such as Eid-ul-Azha when the demand for meat increases. The criminals dye the white or red cows into black, to make identifying the stolen cow difficult. The Border Guard Bangladesh in 2016 reported of confiscating stolen cattle, where some of cattle's original skin color had been "tampered with". Hundreds of thousands of cows, states the British newspaper The Independent in a 2012 article, are illegally smuggled from India into Bangladesh every year to be slaughtered. Gangs from both sides of the border are involved in this illegal smuggling involving an estimated 1.5 million (15 lakhs) cattle a year, and cattle theft is a source of the supply, states Andrew Buncombe.

References

Will someone explain to me why they are in the article? What purpose are they serving? If no adequate explanation is offered, I shall be removing the sentences and the sources. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:27, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

PS Note that the "theft" mentioned in the Daily Star is about theft in Bangladesh, not India. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:28, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

MSW, this is a fair concern; after a quick read, I am unable to find content in these articles discussing theft. They do discuss smuggling, and while thw two may be related, they are distinct processes. If we wish to cover cattle smuggling in this article, we should probably discuss it first. Vanamonde (talk) 06:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I will note the following. Cattle thefts in the NCRB reports are notable for having the highest rates of recovery of any class of stolen property. During the years 2005–2015, anywhere between 46% and 59% of the stolen cattle were recovered, a remarkable fact for each year, which garners mention in the NCRB annual reports. That means those cows that are eventually smuggled to Bangladesh or taken to the illegal abattoirs in India, come from a smaller pool of unrecoverable stolen cows. In the last few years these cows have numbered between 2,500 and 3,500 individuals head. At their doorsteps are being laid claims such as "two million cows are smuggled out of India to Bangladesh every year." Whether or not you consider this calculation [WP:OR]], it still points to an inconsistency which needs to be explained. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:55, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm seeing that as less of an issue; it is more than likely that legally raised cattle is then smuggled across the border. Vanamonde (talk) 12:59, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Vanamonde: are you suggesting that despite no firm connection with cattle theft, the smuggling bit should be included in this page as it points to a illicit activity? It is probably better suited for the Cattle slaughter in India page. I note that it is also reproduced in: Cattle_slaughter_in_India#Illegal_slaughterhouses_and_cattle_theft. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:34, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Yep, source such as this do link "mass theft" to smuggling (see first para, and you will find the quote in cite [8] of this version of the article). We discussed this already. There is no need to repeat. Please see comments above, such as this diff and others, on theft and smuggling. Your comment on illicit activity is fine with me. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:23, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: We asked you about the sources mentioned in my first post, not about other sources, which we too have already read. Again: where in the following sources do find any evidence of cattle theft in India?

• Bengal’s cow smuggling business is drying up, Dibyendu MONDAL, North 24 Parganas, West Bengal, The Sunday Guardian, (11 June, 2017)
• A novel trick to lift cattle, The Daily Star (August 29, 2016)
• Buncombe, Andrew (2012-06-01). "Nothing's sacred: the illegal trade in India's holy cows". The Independent. Retrieved 2017-06-27.

Please answer the specific questions. My remarks about "illicit" were not addressed to you and in any case Vanamonde has not clarified that he meant illicit. The questions addressed to you first are more basic and about just those three sources. If you're not able to give a cogent answer, I shall be taking them out of the article. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:32, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

F&f: This article is a result of the 'narrow focus' demands and the repeated retitling of that cattle-related violence article many weeks ago. Few weeks ago, I wrote I am fine with retitling. I am also fine with moving any summary on "cattle smuggling that is not explicitly linked to cattle theft" by the source into a separate Cattle smuggling in India article. I am fine with either approach, or another. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:47, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

The Buncombe article in The Independent reads, "Andrew Buncombe reports from Kaharpara on a bloody war between rustlers and border guards". Rustler means "someone who steals cattle, horses, etc.". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:52, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

So does the article A novel trick to lift cattle in The Daily Star: "Cattle rustlers in bordering upazilas of the district are resorting to innovative means for selling the stolen cattle." Cattle lifting means cattle theft. It mentions Chatlapur on the border of Bangladesh-India, and other places. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:00, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Please explain how the following text from the Daily Star article referred to earlier is about cattle theft in India, "On August 12, Nazrul Islam of Lalarchak village under Kulaura upazila lost his cow, a red one, to the thieves. After five days' vigorous search, he found the cow near bordering area of Sharifpur, only to notice its colour had been changed to black, Nazrul told this correspondent. Border Guard Bangladesh (BGB) on August 11 confiscated a total of 12 stolen cattle and five of the animals' original skin colours were found to have been tampered with, said Rafiqul Islam, BGB commander of Chatlapur check post under 46 battalion in Kulaura upazila. Those five cows could not be returned to their owners as their owners could not identify them, he added." I look forward to your clarification. For "upazila," please refer to Upazilas of Bangladesh. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Please also explain that if Andrew Buncombe does indeed mean by "rustler" cattle thieves in India, and not cattle smugglers, why does his report on the "bloody war between rustlers and border guards," have only the following mention about the deadly war: "There is smuggling here every day," said Umesh, a member of a three-man Indian Border Security Force (BSF) team on duty at a watchtower near the village of Kaharpara, just a few hundred yards from the Bangladesh border. "The smugglers will take 50, 100 or 200 cattle at a time. We try to create an ambush and surround the smugglers. ... The BSF has been accused of killing hundreds of cattle smugglers, as well as civilians not involved in the trade. A 2010 report published by Human Rights Watch (HRW) suggested that more than 900 people had been killed with impunity by the BSF over the past 10 years. It also said locals claimed some BSF members were complicit with the smuggling and took bribes. This year, an incident in which an alleged smuggler was badly beaten by the security force personnel was captured on video." Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:45, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

PS Please also explain why after reading the following, we should not assume that in Buncombe's article "rustler" means "smuggler:" "Over the last decade, they used excessive and indiscriminate force, shooting at villagers on suspicion that they were smugglers," said Meenakshi Ganguly, HRW's south Asia director. "While many may have been engaged in cattle rustling, the BSF ignored the most basic principles of protecting the right to life." Very best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:00, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Please see the function of Border Guards Bangladesh. On upazila, also see this for Sharifpur border area. That article is talking about India-Bangladesh "Sharifpur border area". There isn't another. I gave you a Cambridge Dictionary source that defines rustler as "a person who steals farm animals". Allow me to ignore your forum-y speculation/OR on Buncombe, and wait for Vanamonde to take another look at the sources and suggestions above for a compromise. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:02, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Again, the sentence is, "Nazrul Islam of Lalarchak village under Kulaura upazila lost his cow, a red one, to the thieves." Where is Kulaura Upazila? In Bangladesh or India? If it is in Bangladesh, how was his cow stolen in India? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:26, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

The Nazrul Islam's statement is just confirming that some cattle thieves do recolor a stolen cow. Then follows, "Border Guard Bangladesh (BGB) on August 11 confiscated a total of 12 stolen cattle and five of the animals' original skin colours were found to have been tampered with, said Rafiqul Islam, BGB commander of Chatlapur check post under 46 battalion in Kulaura upazila." The Kulaura Upazila is at India-Bangladesh border. To "assume" rustler means smuggler, even after I gave you a source, is OR and inappropriate. Let Vanamonde read the two articles and give us a third opinion. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Kulaura Upazila is the largest in Bangladesh. Not everyone in it lives a stone's throw from the border. Nazrul Islam lives in Lalarchak. Where is it? According to the the picture caption in the story, "The photo was taken in Lalarchak area of Moulvibazar recently." Where is Moulvibazar? It is 20 km from the India-Bangladesh border. How then was his cow stolen in India? The newspaper goes on to say, "The theft is rampant mostly in Kulaura, Kamalganj, Rajnagar, Juri and surrounding upazilas of Moulvibazar, having borders with India and nearly a hundred cattle have been stolen from this region over the last month." That sounds like cattle theft in Bangladesh. Please be warned that deliberate obfuscation is a form of disruption and a violation of Wikipedia policy. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

More sources on cattle theft + smuggling

Vanamonde: as you review the evidence above and the two sources, please consider the following additional sources as well. I am fine with including more from these articles, as well as to paraphrasing:

1. Quote: People living in the border areas in Dhubri district complained that unabated smuggling of cattle resulted in cattle theft. – The Telegraph
2. Quote: Rampant smuggling to Bangladesh had triggered cattle theft in many parts of the state, especially in eastern Assam where bullock are hardly used for ploughing anymore because of mechanisation of farming. – The Tribune
3. Quote: (...) The four charred bodies were found in a village in West Bengal state close to the border with Bangladesh on Sunday evening, the police commissioner of nearby Siliguri city said. Two of the bodies were found inside a burnt out van, also containing one of the suspected stolen cows, while the other two bodies were found nearby, police commissioner Jagmohan, who uses one name, told AFP. (...) Preliminary investigation has revealed that the incident was a fallout between two groups of (rival) cattle smugglers. (...) Cattle stealing for smuggling across the border into Bangladesh is a common problem in the area, according to authorities. – The Dawn
4. Quote: The villagers said that the cow thefts in the region increase before and during Ramzan and that the bovines might have been being smuggled across the border which is just 7 km away. “The cow thefts spike before and during Ramzan. The cattle are easily smuggled across through Bangladesh through river and under the barbed wire,” said local resident Rajesh Roy. – The New Indian Express
5. Quote: Indian border officials say their Bangladeshi counterparts do not do enough to prevent illegal cross-border smuggling. Cattle rustling in particular is rife, with 51,900 heads of cattle seized so far this year, the border force said. – Associated Press

After your share your comments these five, I will look into more sources if appropriate. Thanks, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:34, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

References

@Ms Sarah Welch: Vanamonde does not have endless time to plow through an endless, and thus far, disingenuous, collection of sources, none of which are relevant. He has already gone on record telling you that he does not think the three sources in question address cattle theft. In the face of such clarity, what is your well worn philosophy of discussion, which is also on display when you edit war? It is to quickly sneak in another reference, sometimes two references, other times, three, four, or five., and to attempt to muddy the waters. Again, kindly tell me where in those three sources is cattle theft addressed in India. And please don't look into more sources when you've done a lackluster job of finding just three, and wasted the time of others. That time is precious, as is Vanamonde's, who is a productive editor. Encroaching on that time without a compelling reason is disruptive and runs counter to WP policy. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:07, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I am afraid I have limited time and energy for this at the moment, as I am somewhat under the weather, and also busy in RL. Fowler, I appreciate that you are getting frustrated, but may I ask you to tone it down just a little? There are obviously a lot of sources discussing smuggling. Most of these sources either do not mention theft at all, or mention it in passing. It would not be entirely appropriate for us to use these statements in Wikipedia's voice. All I am seeing support for at the moment is something like "government authorities and local residents in areas surrounding Bangladesh have stated that frequent cattle-smuggling across the border from India is causing an increase in cattle theft." Really that's about all we can say. If the use of a certain source hinges on the meaning of "rustling", I do not think it appropriate for us to use it. Vanamonde (talk) 05:26, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Indeed. I feel F&f's tone and WP:Bullying is getting too much, and such behavior is counter to wikipedia policy. F&f must realise that if he as a wikipedia editor expects the right to post flawed OR or analyze + discuss sources on an article talk page, then other editors have the same equal rights too.

On rest, Vanamonde, I am following your request from July 25, here, where you suggested, "Bring your sources to the talk page, where consensus can be built on which of them can and should be used." Thank you for welcoming me to do so.

The above five sources are as good sources as the ones F&f and others have used in Cow vigilantism article, or the opinion column in the Live Mint newspaper source above with a non-standard way of presenting cattle theft as a percentage of all crimes! That too, in the passing! Generally, the standard for crime stats reports is rate per 100,000 people and total incidence numbers, not Kishore's unusual analysis.

The above five sources, and more, clearly mention – see bolded part in each quote – cattle theft. They link it to cattle smuggling into Bangladesh. If your suggestion is that we do not use sources that mention cattle theft in the passing, I can accept that compromise if we apply that standard to all sources, such as Kishore's non-standard comment on cattle theft made in the passing in the Live Mint, and delete it too.

I am fine with removing the questioned The Sunday Guardian source in the "Smuggling into Bangladesh" section as well as any that "do not mention cattle theft at all", and replacing them with sources that do and those that explicitly link cattle theft in India with cattle smuggling into Bangladesh. Of the five above, I see several of the sources are primarily about "cattle theft in India - cattle smuggling into Bangladesh". I do not see any cogent explanation in F&f reply to 5 sources above. Allow me to ignore his unsubstantiated "disingenuous, collection of sources, none of which are relevant" comment. They are neither disingenuous nor irrelevant. Please see the 5 quotes again. Those sources, and more I have, are as good and relevant as what F&f and others have been using in this and closely related wikipedia articles.

Rustling does not mean 'smuggling' nor 'making ice cream' nor something else!. F&f should not personally "interpret" what rustling means, because that is OR. I gave the Cambridge Dictionary source above already, it does say "rustling means theft of farm animals", and it does not say "rustling means smuggling". Without a counter source, F&f can't assign novel interpretations and fringe meanings to common English words.

I hope you feel better soon. Please rest. This can wait for a few days or weeks, if you need. There is no emergency in wikipedia. Your intervention and 3O is helpful, constructive and much appreciated. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:18, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

There is no agreement on introducing any of the sources you have brought now.

The only agreement there is is with Vanamonde's formulation of what can go in. I will therefore be introducing it and removing the paragraph for which no evidence has been forthcoming. I have the OED and Webster's Unabridged sitting here. (The OED, has already used my formulation of the British Raj, in its own entery.) I have little interest in telling you all the differing things that rustling, and lifting. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:25, 12 August 2017 (UTC).

F&f: If you refuse to provide your source that one can verify, the content stays! Webster too states rustling means "to steal cattle" and "to steal (livestock) especially from a farm or ranch". Once again, you misrepresent a source. The five sources above are being discussed, and we need to give Vanamonde some time to recover and return. This section only discussed smuggling so far. Please do not remove content and sources from other sections. Please feel free to take it to DRN. Good luck. @Kautilya3: can you please check the five sources above whether they discuss cattle theft and cattle smuggling, when you have time. What are your thoughts? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)