Talk:Catalanism

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Are there any facts, figures, opinion polls etc on Catalan nationalism in the Balearic Isles, Valencia, etc? What has made Catalan nationalism so weak in Valencia? Is there any active agitation for adjusting the border with Aragon so that La Franja forms part of Catalonia? What role does Catalanism play in Andorra? And what is the current situation of Catalan nationalism in Roussillon and Alghero? If anybody's got answers to these questions, I'd love to see them! Best, QuartierLatin 1968 01:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Tu peux chercher ici: Catalan government site: [1] ; and also [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] with some polls and statistics, and this personal one: [8].

Au revoir!. --Joan sense nick 02:18, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Andorra: (See entry) Catalan is the official language.

Northern Catalonia (in France): See the schools ca:Bressola that teach Catalan language on the parents' wish, just as an example.--Paco ✉ 01:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Not neutral sentence

This sentence "Catalan nationalism departs from the unsuccesfull attempts to establish a federal state in Spain in the context of the First Republic" is at least NOT NEUTRAL Many sources would agree that it started the same day Catalonia loosed the war against Castilla (September 11, 1714, by the way the National Day of Catalonia). Please see the House of Lords Journals of these dates. Another point of view should be added.

References

• Documents about the case of the catalans dated on 1714, at the House of Lords, UK.
• Journal of the House of Lords: volume 19, 2 August 1715, Further Articles of Impeachment against E. Oxford brought from H.C. Article VI.
• The birth of a nation at the Museum of the History of Catalonia site.

--Paco ✉ 00:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

extent

In my opinion, the recently added (and removed) "small fraction" and pan-catalanist note should be reinstated, if not under that wording, . Because, indeed, it is a small fraction in Catalan nationalism (CUP and others) because we can't seriously argue that ERC actively campaigns for the "ideal" extension of the "Catalan Countries", can we?

At this point they are centered in their own backyard, the "ideal" thing is for, well, I guess "idealists" or something ;)

Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 13:31, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

We do not interpret the Catalan nationalist organizations in the same way. It could be the case that we are analyzing the topic from two different criteria: (1) what the organizations claim they want to do and (2) what they really do. I am doing some searching for sources that could be useful later on to find the wording in the article.

According to the first criteria, I think that the Catalan Countries as the framework for the demands of the (non Spanish) nationalism therein is quite majoritary in these organizations. Just take a look on the following documents: Declaració ideològica d'ERC (they explicitly stipulate the Catalan Countries as the nation they work for), Declaració política del Bloc Nacional i d'Esquerres a les Illes Balears (they aim to strengthen the link between Catalan-speaking countries), Catalunya a Europa i el món, Ponència de CIU (when talking about the future development of the European Union, page 13, they demand that the legal framework should not prevent the Catalan Countries from being recognized as a European region), CUP presentation on their web page (they choose the Catalan Countries as their framework from the very beginning), Ponència del Bloc Nacionalista Valencià (they claim it is their goal to "achieve full sovereignty for the Valencian people, legally declared by a Valencian sovereign Constitution which allows the possibility of association with the countries which share the same language, history and culture"). However, under the second criterion the issue could be more controversial, and this is what you probably mean. But still, it looks quite clear to me that the ERC guys are working hard on that (they have established the party, or a federation of the party, in almost all those regions). What do you think? --Carles Noguera (talk) 15:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion is much more simple than that. I mean, if we look at papers, grand statements and else, indeed you got it right that the Països Catalans issue exists at all.

But if we look to down the street everyday political life, this is a no-no issue. Do you think the Països Catalans is a real issue in Catalonia these days? let alone in Valencia, Balearic, Franja, Alguer, Carche etc, etc. It is not.

I think we agree in that is not an issue at this point, regardless of how many papers we can cite, is that correct?

There are, of course, a bunch of people who do care and talk about it (mostly at the CUP, ERPV, JERC (sic :P) and ERC-Illes Balears). But those, considered among the wider Catalan nationalist group, are definitely "a small fraction" and I can't see why we should conceal this fact.

If the thing is that you find this "small fraction" wording not particularly fortunate, you can go ahead with any other of your own choosing, but I hope what I am saying makes sense to you, too....even though you never know with you guys :P Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 16:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree the wording is far from perfect, and this "ideally" can be ambiguous. But before we find the good words to write it, we still have some disagreement about facts. In my previous message hopefully I managed to show that the concern with the Països Catalans issue is explicit in the ideological declarations of the main nationalist parties in these territories. However, you still object that it is not an issue in the everyday political life. Your claim was probably true a few years ago, but in recent times the situation has changed somehow. Some relevant political actors in these countries seem to be actively concerned with the issue of the shared language and culture, at least inasmuch as some of the involved governments are reaching collaborative agreements which are supposed to lead to the creation of the Ramon Llull Foundation (headquartered in Andorra) based on the already existing Ramon Llull Institute. --Carles Noguera (talk) 20:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Mhhh...so you think the Països Catalans issue is indeed alive outside the JERC casal (next to Jordi Bilbeny's latest) or outside of, well, Wikipedia? I guess there is some presence, but if we assess its relevance in WP:DUE terms, I dont think PPCC will make it...the last time I heard of those (outside of wikipedia, that is) was when Laporta made his own Camp Nou show (this guy is trying hard for me to defect...and he's almost made it!) and then the satisfied faces at PP HQs in Valencia rising to the occasion given on a silver plate...when was that? a couple years ago, right? Other than that, and waiting for the next, I still fail to see the issue of any real relevance.

Anyway, I kinda stand by the anon proposal (or similar). Do you stand by the one as it is now or you have any alternative proposal? Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 20:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so let us work directly on the article to find the best wording. I intend to do so in the following days when I will have some time. --Carles Noguera (talk) 06:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I am checking now the definition of "Catalanism" in a couple of quite different paper encyclopedies. GREC: "Moviment que propugna el reconeixement de la personalitat política de Catalunya o dels Països Catalans". Diccionario enciclopédico Salvat: "Nombre dado al movimiento nacionalista catalán surgido en el siglo XIX al mismo tiempo que otros movimientos nacionalistas europeos". So, the GREC admits the Catalan Countries as a possible framework for such a movement from the beginning. Salvat does not. Therefore, there is not an easy way to deal with the issue. I would propose the following:

• Rename the article to Catalanism.
• Redirect "Catalan Nationalism" to this one.
• Write in the introduction something very simple and neutral like this: Catalanism is the name given to the Catalan Nationalism movement.
• Then, I would create a new section about the geographical scope (and intensity) of the nationalist demands.

Let me know. --Carles Noguera (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear colleagues, I have implemented my proposal, trying to address at the same time the concerns of Mountolive, the anonymous user and myself. Notice I have tried to distinguish between the demands written in official congress documents of the parties and their everyday political activities. I have also kept the link to pan-nationalism as proposed by Mountolive and the anonymous colleague, even though I am afraid it may lead to some wrong identification of Catalan nationalism with some tragical episodes of Europe's recent history. Of course, the text is to still to be improved and any collaboration is welcome. --Carles Noguera (talk) 11:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Carles.

I think you should undo yourself with the name changing. That is a quite important change which should be discussed.

I didnt engage in discussion because, as you know, the catawikisystem is overheating and I think it is better that the more responsible people (the types of you and I) keep things calmed as far as we are concerned.

We will have time to address this, but I guess I owe you at least one reason for naming the article back. Google hits for Catalan nationalism= about 165,000; Google hits for Catalanism about 8,370. So out there in the web Catalanism amounts to 5% of Catalan nationalism.

That is only one of a series of reason which, in any case, I would like you to please not discuss at this point. We will keep this in our to-do list for a near future, is that ok?

In the meantime, if you dont mind, please change back the name until we hold some proper discussion on this relevant change.

Thanks a lot! Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 13:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)