Talk:Carmen Miranda/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Full stop?

I don't quite understand Full stop as used in the Carmen_Miranda#Life_and_career section.

in 1945 was the highest-paid woman in the United States full stop, earning more than $200,000 that year, according to IRS records.

Maybe an artifact from some voice dictation software? Lent 13:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

No, just a Briticism - it means "outright", in the same way as American English uses "period". It's probably too informal to be used in a Wikipedia article. — 217.46.147.13 (talk) 14:18, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

10 million copies?

Miranda made a total of 14 Hollywood films between 1940 and 1953. As a singer, she sold more than 10 million copies worldwide [citation needed] I am aware that citation is needed for that information, but could there be some clarifaction as to 10 million copies of what, exactly? Ninetigerr 20:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)ninetigerr

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

I'd like to see the death certificate that shows that a 46-year-old woman who as far as I can tell was not over 20 weeks pregnant at the moment of her death and who had not delivered a child within three hours of her death (and who in fact died childless) died of pre-eclampsia. It's impossible. "Toxemia" doesn't always mean pre-eclampsia, especially on older death certificates - in fact, it was used more often than not to mean septicemia or blood poisoning. BUT: every single reference I can find gives her cause of death as a heart attack, and her death certificate isn't online anywhere I can see. (Plus, "heart failure" doesn't mean a heart attack: it's a specific disease, not a catch-all) So I've deleted the pregnancy part and ask that it not be re-added until someone posts a copy of her death certificate showing the word "pregnancy" (not the word "toxemia") on it. --NellieBly (talk) 06:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Carmen's death

A friend of Carmen's told me in 2000 she was disappointed with the way her people treated her in her country, she was some american wanna-be traitor? what was the deal there? It's interesting to note that she died happy, she was on Jimmy Durante show, did a good job with the great Noseshnozola and died, did anybody see her late show? Fitting way to go... we did otr show on her durante show contributions! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirandamir (talk • contribs) 01:22, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK, she was bashed in Brazil for sucess in U.S. --201.78.37.30 (talk) 18:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Warrington Wolves

Although I don't know that it isn't true, how could Carmen Miranda possibly be a supporter of an English Rugby League Football club? She lived in Beverly Hills which was not exactly handy for Warrington's Wilderspool stadium.

Unless someone knows differently, I suggest that this comment is a joke inserted by some wag (presumably from Warrington) and should be removed.

In addition, they weren't called Warrington Wolves until long after Carmen died.

Lotus49 (talk) 19:49, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Controversial photograph

«I beleive there was a promotional photograph, taken with one of her co-stars, which caused a great amount of controvercy and damaged Ms. Miranda's career. Does anyone else recall hearing about this? Niloc.

"She was captured in photo while dancing with Caeser Romero wearing no underwear. Those closest to her did not perceive this as being "naughty" but simply that it gave her greater freedom of movement for her dance routines." from http://www.bombshells.com/gallery/miranda/miranda_facts.php Meichigo (talk) 04:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I saw the photo in an antique store. It's a black and white photo. It had a description next to it so there was no mistaking what I was seeing! With or without clothes, she was a very pretty woman. Marty 10/14/2008

She worked during a period of stringent censorship. She managed to be sexy in a midriff that covered her navel. 19:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Citizenship/nationality

She is really the Brazilian icon, but the strangestest thing of all is that she hadn't Brazilian nationality. Her only nationality was Portuguese. "disseram que voltei americanizada" means literally "they said I came back Americanized". "they said I became Americanized" in Portuguese is "disseram que me tornei americanizada." or "disseram que fiquei americanizada." -Pedro 21:42, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

FYI, this was left on my talk page by an anon, but it belongs to reverts on this article, so here it is...--Dali-Llama 00:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You keep reverting the "clarify" tag with no reason.

The answer to your comments:

“That source doesn't mention anything different from the article.” Yes it does. In those days naturalization would mean she would have lost her Portuguese nationality. She would be Brazilian by choice and no longer Portuguese.

“Sorry-- that source is ambiguous. They could've meant she wasn't born in Brazil. It's not specific enough to rule out or affirm naturalization.”

If all you need is a reliable source not ambiguous to rule out naturalization you have one here:

««While always publicly identifying herself as “Brazilian”, throughout her life she carried a Portuguese passport and lived as a Latina immigrant in Beverly Hills, California.»»

A. M.. Latina Legacies: Identity Biography, and Community. Oxford University Press US. (Pg194)

You can call her Brazilian on the other parts of the text, because she identified herself as such, but not where it makes ambiguous about her nationality or implies she had Brazilian nationality when she didn't. Like her real name was not Carmen, but Maria do Carmo, her real nationality was not Brazilian. This is supposed to be a Encyclopedia not a nationality tug of war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.181.114.145 (talk) 23:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"Carrying a Portuguese passport" does not exclude her from carrying a Brazilian passport. The status of dual citizenship has long been recognized by Portugal and de facto in Brazil (though de jure only since 1994). You have yet to present a source which clearly states she was not a Brazilian citizen, when her IMDb database clearly states she was a naturalized Brazilian citizen. IMDb is not the end-all, be-all source, so I'd be willing to accept your tag if you could provide a source which clearly states that she did not have Brazilian citizenship (regardless of her Portuguese passport).--Dali-Llama 00:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Naturalization is different from having the right to more than one nationality for having parents of other nationalities. The law changed in 1981. Do not forget there had been two world wars and a dictatorship,

The people who lost the Portuguese nationality for having naturalized, can only after 1981 get it back. So no, there was not a chance she was naturalized Brazilian, volunteer acquisition of another nationality caused loss of the Portuguese one, in those days.

««Lei da Nacionalidade Lei n.o 37/81 de 3 de Outubro

Artigo 31.o (Aquisição voluntária anterior de nacionalidade estrangeira)

Os que, nos termos da Lei n.o 2098, de 29 de Julho de 1959, e legislação precedente, perderam a nacionalidade portuguesa por efeito da aquisição voluntária de nacionalidade estrangeira podem adquiri-la mediante declaração, sendo capazes.»»

We can discuss legal arguments about historical de facto and de jure dual citizenship legislation forever (which is why I drew the distinction in saying that the dual citizenship status is de facto recognized, while not necessarily de jure). At the most the conclusion would be that her dual citizenship was illegal according to one country's law (or both). Bottom line is, until you (or I, for that matter, since I've been looking too) find a source which directly states she was never naturalized a Brazilian citizen, then the existing source prevails. As it's quite clear about the subject, the tag is not appropriate in this context.--Dali-Llama 19:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The conclusion would be that her dual citizenship would be illegal according to the laws of both countries, Brazil did not accept dual citizenship of naturalized citizen either. You know that IMDb is not a good source to base the assumption that she was naturalized. Not even her official site says a word about it which would be very strange if they ignored the fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.181.17.87 (talk) 01:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, this would affect her de jure legal status, not necessarily de facto. Until we have a source otherwise, the unclear tag remains out.--Dali-Llama 15:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• The text is biased, by reading it you would suppose that she was Brazilian, and refused her real nationality, by saying she never returned, but hiding the fact that she wished to do so. The first paragraph is nothing but a personal opinion, and not based on facts, she was Portuguese born with Portuguese nationality. the affinity to Brazil is common and not strange considering Brazilian roots. I don't know how the lead paragraph should be, cause even in Portugal people in her situation are considered Brazilians, but the term "Brazilian" does not imply Brazilian nationality, but Portuguese immigrant in Brazil is known as Brasileiro (Brazilian), this is a fact, and visible still today in several Portuguese cities with the Brasileiros class that built mansions in several Portuguese towns in the North. The situation of Carmen is similar to Roberto Leal, so I think the term; Portuguese-brazilian is the best, rather than the current one, which implies fake claims. And the person that wants to geet more information about Portuguese-brazilians will just need to click on it, I guess in that article they talk about the issue of Portugal vs Brazil personal affinity issues. Because today the other way around is occurring. People say one is brazilian or Portuguese just based on the accent, nothing more. --Pedro (talk) 17:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to get into an edit war, but I think this is wrongheaded. Yes, she was Portuguese-born, but I think it is ridiculous not to mention in the lead that she grew up in Brazil. That is not at all, for example, the way we handle UK-born people who grew up in the 19th century U.S. - Jmabel | Talk 22:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

User Crazyaboutlost is only trying to destabilize this article but he was already blocked for this. Moreover, if he keeps erasing the fact that Miranda was raised in Brazil and keeps trying to sell the wrong idea that she was an "ordinary Portuguese singer", we just have to report him for vandalism one more time. Opinoso (talk) 14:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but you don't have a point. I only added the fact that she was portuguese. I didn't erase anything. Crazyaboutlost (talk) 16:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

She was Portugese-born, but was Brazilian in upbringing. Opinoso's version is the better version. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Crazyaboutlost only wants to destabilize and create an edit-war. He was already blocked for this, but keeps doing the same things in this article.

Carmen Miranda was knows as the Brazilian Bombshell . She was never called the "Portuguese Bombshell" at all...

Maybe Crazyaboutlost does not even know who Carmen Miranda was, another reason for him not post anything here.

Please, administrators, pay attention to this user. I already reported him for being chasing me and my contributions. Just take a look at his his contribution page to notice that all he does is to reverte me. He was also already warned for chasing me, but he, again, keeps doing something not allowed in Wikipedia. Opinoso (talk) 20:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I only added the information, which is true, that she was portuguese. You can't deny that.Crazyaboutlost (talk) 20:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

She was a Portuguese native, but not a Portuguese singer. She was a Brazilian singer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry man, but since she never got a double citizenship, she was a portuguese singer.Crazyaboutlost (talk) 20:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I have taken this dispute to WP:ANI, man. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 21:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Crazyaboutlost was blocked for 1 week for his violations in this and several other articles. Opinoso (talk) 21:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah...edit wars and POV pushing. Ya gotta love 'em. Anyhoo, I strongly agree with the above comments about the wording so I didn't make any drastic changes to the lede. I did, however, change up the article quite a bit and hopefully there won't be any further problems. If anyone has a problem with the lede or anything else I changed, please let me know here or on my talk page and I'll be happy to change it up or talk about. That said, the article still needs quite a bit of work (sourcing, etc). Pinkadelica ^{Say it...} 08:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

well i can't understand why wiki keep refering to this artist as brazilian since she only had portuguese citizenship. And besides refering to her has "portuguese-born brazilian" is an outrage to the portuguese people. Even though its not the truth in the max you can refer to her as a portuguese-brazilian. Do not diminish the portuguese blood of carmen miranda. All of you must be brazilians to keep refering to her as such. someone is only from a country if they have the citizenship of that country. She could have love Brazil, and i can even say that she was a portuguese with brazil also in her heart, but someone isn't from a country just by heart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tacv (talk • contribs) 00:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The brazilian newspaper Folha da Noite wrote in 30/01/1940 : Então é assim que o Brasil brilha nos Estados Unidos: com uma portuguesa cantando sambas negroides de mau estilo ... não há mesmo neste país muitas pessoas que valham como essa Carmen. That means So its like this that Brazil shine in the United States: with a PORTUGUESE singing black sambas of bad kind (...) there isn't in this country many people that worth the same as Carmen.

The also Brazilian megazine O Cruzeiro wrote in 30/03/1946 about one of her cinema roles: (...) mas isso não é desculpa para os papeis que ela (carmen) representa, porque neste caso sendo ela portuguesa também não poderia ser uma sambista brasileira. That means (...) but that isn't an excuse for the cinema papers she (carmen) represents, because in that case being her portuguese she couldn't be a brazilian samba dancer.

In the book "O it verde e amarelo de Carmen Miranda" from the writer Tânia da Costa Garcia, refers to Carmen Miranda as portuguese and not brazilian: "Era portuguesa, mas identificava-se com a canção popular urbana e o seu ambiente malandro (referencia ao brasil). She was portuguese but she identified herself with the urban popular songs and the environment (refering to brazil)page 61

In the very respected portuguese newspaper Diário de Noticias they wrote: Carmen Miranda The most famouse portuguese (...) Carmen never gave up of her portuguese citizenship. Link: http://dn.sapo.pt/gente/perfis/interior.aspx?content_id=1141949

In no place there is prof that she adquire brazilian citizenship, even in the carmen miranda museum webpage there isn't any reference to her having brazilian citizenship, ot even the great brazilian Ruy Castro that was the one that wrote her biography and very close to Carmen never spoke about a brazilian citizenship. So if wiki wants to continue to write brazilian-portuguese, people have to proof she had brazilian citizenship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tacv (talk • contribs) 02:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The consensus on this page clearly supports the "Portuguese-born Brazilian singer and actress" wording and that is what is going to stay. If you want to include something new or don't agree with the wording, I suggest you open up an RfC about the nationality matter. For the record, no one here is denying that she was born in Portugal and I'm fairly certain no one here claimed she wasn't Portuguese. The fact of the matter remains that Miranda moved to Brazil at the age of one, grew up there and is still closely associated with the country whether certain people like that or not. Again, if you want the wording changed, open an RfC and try going through the proper channels of dispute resolution instead of claiming an entire country in outraged by a Wikipedia article and we should change the content on that basis. Pinkadelica^♣ 05:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

well im sorry but your comment doesn't make any sense and its actually a bit rude. First i showed proof that she was portuguese and not brazilian. Not you nor any other person in this channel showed proof she was brazilian. Secondly its totally false when you say people here all agree with the term "portuguese-born brazilian" because you can read alot of people saying that is wrong. It is an outrage calling her portuguese-born brazilian since that is false and a lie. If people want to maintain a lie than i don't have nothing to do with it. I did my part. I could understand brazilians want to call her a brazilian cause of the affinity with her, but someone is a citizen of a country only if they have citizenship of that country. Are you sugesting that this is not correct? If your opinion is that she is brazilian just because she lived there, then she should also be north american since she lived there to. Calling her portuguese-born is just wrong cause it diminishes all her portuguese blood. In the end i will always correct something i find wrong in wikipedia and so i will always correct this article. i sugest you to get your facts straight and avoid rude nationalisms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tacv (talk • contribs) 06:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

You have violated the 3 revert rule three times over, and I have reported you for it here: [1] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

did i? well if wikipedia agrees with you than that just proves wiki defends lies and not facts. lets see what will happen then. Even the version in portuguese of Carmen Miranda page has it right. You should learn with the portuguese channel person. They wrote portuguese-brazilian and then add a note saying "Apesar de ter morado quase toda a sua vida no Brasil e nos Estados Unidos, Carmen Miranda nunca se naturalizou cidadã de qualquer um destes países. Portanto, sempre manteve a nacionalidade portuguesa que tinha por ter nascido em Portugal, assim como sempre foi legalmente estrangeira no Brasil e nos Estados Unidos". Translate that and try to learn some facts and the correct way to treat people that defend the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tacv (talk • contribs) 07:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Your arguments would be more convincing if her nickname weren't "The Brazilian Bombshell". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

As I've already stated, the consensus is to keep the wording as is. I'm not going to argue established consensus every time a new account pops up claiming that good faith editors are liars and trying to hide the truth™ about a woman who has been dead for over fifty years. If you want to present new, reliable sources that support whatever it is you're trying to get into the article, go about it the correct way and open a RfC regarding the article's content. Until then, do not change the content regarding Miranda's nationality unless you want a forced vacation from editing. If me telling you how to go about doing things correctly around here is rude, so be it. Pinkadelica^♣ 07:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

what does her nickname being that has to do with the prove of her nationality? And besides in no way its the consensus here that she is a portuguese-born brazilian. Whatever does that mean. Just read the comments of many people prior to me that you all try to shut. Its a fact that she never was brazilian thats a fact that anyone can't disagree with. So if you want to point out she lived in Brazil and has very important mark in Brazilian music thats one thing other thing is to try to whatever reason hide the true fact that she was portuguese and not brazilian. Not even calling her portuguese-brazilian but portuguese-born is a obviouse way to diminish the portuguese connection with carmen, where it is implicit that she only lived there and didn't care with Portugal. Which is totally untrue. I went to wiki Help: place and there they say to change ourselfs the articles since there isnt anyone where i can go to explain this situation. Remember that if you are a good faith editor im also a good faith person. Since its a fact she never had brazilian citizenship i don't get the exfort of you guys to say the opposite. So i will do what wiki says people to do: comment in the discussion board and change the article (since thats the meaning of wiki: people changing articles). So if you're not interested in writting the truth just because she died more than 50 years ago is just wrong, you should be thankfull for people partecipate and try to correct things. Tacv (talk) 08:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

There are guidelines on the English Wikipedia covering what a person is called, especially when they are born in one country but grew up and became notable in another. MOS:BIO defines nationality as the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was when the person became notable. In the case of Carmen Miranda, it's entirely proper to say where she was born and from where she became notable. Unless you can establish that she was a resident of Portugal when she became notable, you're not following guidelines. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

well that guide line says "or was when they became notable" ... carmen miranda never was natural or had citizenship of brazil when she bacame famouse ... And the ideia of saying one can say she is from and born on brazil is just outragiose sorry ...

Isn't incorrect to call Carmen Miranda brazilian when she never had brazilian citizenship? Since she had only portuguese citizenship shouldn't it be said that she was in fact portuguese? Writting the term portuguese-born brazilian instead of portuguese-brazilian to refer to carmen miranda dispite the citizenship issue isn't incorrect?

Please read WP:TALK to learn how to format your answers on this talk page so others can follow them. Also, please sign your posts. As for the content, again, the current consensus is to keep the wording as is. The current wording does not dismiss the fact that she was Portuguese so you can stop trying to argue that point. If you bothered to read the rest of the article, it also states that she never gave up her Portuguese citizenship but that she also never went back there. If you want to article to state that she was only a Portuguese citizen and had no ties to Brazil whatsoever, the burden of proof lies with you to prove that. This has been explained to you enough times and unless you want to go through dispute resolution to solve this matter, this discussion is over. Pinkadelica^♣ 20:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Request for comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Carmen Miranda biography in wikipedia in the english version states she was a portuguese-born brazilian. The reality is that she have born in portugal to portuguese parents and she never had brazilian citizenship. Because of that she always lived her life as a foreigner in Brazil and in the United States of America, the two countries where she lived her life, besides Portugal. Due to this fact i belive it is incorrect to state she was brazilian, since that is not true. This doesn't put at stake the relationship she had with brazilian culture but only states to the real fact she indeed never has brazilian. In the brazilian megazine O Cruzeiro worte in 30/03/1940 that she was portuguese. Same references can be found in the book "O it verde e amarelo de Carmen Miranda" from the writer Tânia da Costa Garcia in page 61 saying "She was portuguese but identified herself with brazilian culture". In a more recent publication, in the very respected portuguese newspaper Diário de Noticias they wrote: Carmen Miranda The most famouse portuguese (...) Carmen never gave up of her portuguese citizenship. Link: http://dn.sapo.pt/gente/perfis/interior.aspx?content_id=1141949. In no place there is proof that she adquire brazilian citizenship since in those times it was forbidden to have dual citizenship both in portugal and in brazil and to be a brazilian citizen she had to open hand of her portuguese one and she never did that. So refering to her as portuguese-born brazilian is then incorrect and in my view diminish the portuguese that she was since she isn't even refered as portuguese-brazilian but portuguese-born brazilian. Tacv (talk) 13:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of putting this under a section header so other editors can comment without scrolling down oodles of text. Ideally, this should have been added to the bottom of the page. Anyhow, my thoughts on the matter are listed directly above this RfC. I don't see the point in typing the exact same thing regarding the exact same complaints every few weeks. Pinkadelica^♣ 14:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

She's associated with Brazil, not Portugal, and the article makes the facts of the matter clear. We've got a few folks (or maybe just one) who want to dominantly link her with Portugal just because she was born there. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Well the fact is we all know she is portuguese and not brazilian. I don't see why do you hate that fact so much. Do you have anything against portuguese people? Im not trying to dominate anything im just trying as so many already did in this discussion board before me to refer that she was in fact portuguese. This does not diminish the importance she had in brazilian music culture so please dont be so arrogant to think im trying to do so. I also ask for you to not be rude and don't diminish yourself the importance of the fact that she never gave up her nationality/citizenship of Portugal to became a brazilian. this is a fact so get over it. Also note that in the portuguese language article in wikipedia of carmen miranda she is refered as portuguese-brazilian and it has a note on it saying what everybody already stated in this discussion room and you guys seem not to want to listen: that eventhought wiki referes to her as a portuguee-brazilian she keept her portuguese nationality and so she lived as a foreigner in brazil and in the usa.And what do we have in the english version? that she is a portuguese-born brazilian, and when someone tries to contribute to the true facts we are attacked as trying to force the link of carmen to portugal, funny isn't it?81.84.168.59 (talk) 01:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Well the fact is we all know she is associated with Brazil and not Portugal. I don't see why do you hate that fact so much. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

did you even read what i wrote? i don't have any problem that her job made her be associated with brazil. I don't have anything against that, in fact i love brazil. But the fact that her job made her be associatd with brazil doesn't erase her portuguese nationality and gives her a brazilian one. I don't understand why the fact that she is portuguese diminish the importance she had in brazilian music culture. Im only defending the facts here and im only speaking about her nationality not the importance she had in brazilian culture. Why do you try so much to put words in my mouth and mix the two issues? im not talking about anything else besides her portuguese citizenship.

Please stick to commenting on the content and not the contributors. No one here has indicated any dislike for any nationality or country and to assume anything else is extreme bad faith on your part. We're allowed to have different opinions without being accused of disliking an entire country or its people or being accused of "attacking" others. So far, only two people have answered this comment and neither of us were rude, so the plea to be polite is noted but unneeded. Pinkadelica^♣ 02:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The article explains the Portugese connection. The attempt to "claim" her as somehow a Portugese icon is not supported by reliable sources. She is associated primarily with Brazil, and of course the USA as well. Her connection to Portugal is very small (as was she at the time she moved to Brazil). Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

why do you keep talking about connections with this country and that country? no one where refered to that. so as pinkadelica said please stay to topic. What is here asked to be comment is her nationality which is a issue that doesn't have anything to do with importance to ones country. Besides she being portuguese of course she is a portuguese icon, as in Diário da Republica stated recently, she is the most famouse portuguese women. 81.84.168.59 (talk) 02:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Her Portugese background is already covered in the article. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Once again i say, what is here asked to be commented is her nationality. the english version of this article referes to her as portuguese-born brazilian. this expression is the one asked to be commented not the article itself. Only her nationality is asked to be commented. So once again, please stay to topic. I hope some editor can give his/her unbiase opinion in this matter and whatever they decide i will respect it, but till then i cannot agree what you are writing. Nothing against you. 81.84.168.59 (talk) 03:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I commented on this about a month ago and the guidelines have not changed since then. There are guidelines on the English Wikipedia covering what a person is called, especially when they are born in one country but grew up and became notable in another. MOS:BIO defines nationality as the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was when the person became notable. A "national" is not the same thing as a citizen and in the case of Carmen Miranda, it's entirely proper to say where she was born and from where she became notable. She grew up in Brazil, her background was from the Brazilian culture, she was a symbol of Brazilian culture and was noted professionally as being connected to Brazil. Unless you can establish that she was a resident of Portugal when she became notable, you're not following guidelines. She is rightly described as "Portuguese-born Brazilian". And for the record, please stop telling people what factors they can or cannot consider in rendering an opinion. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

hello Wildhartlivie. Your comment does not say anything since the rules state that the person must be national. Carmen Miranda was never national of Brazil. Both her nationality and citizenship are portuguese. Even so she reached stardom, or if you wish, became notable only when she was a resident of United States of America and not Brazil, this is well stated in the article, so what you say does not have any implication to what i asked. If so she should be refered as portuguese-american and not brazilian. I would also like to add that this is a topic created to a comment request made by me and the editor of this article said to people to stay in topic, and so i have all the right to tell people to stay to topic in this seaction of the discussion board. If people want to debate other issues regarding carmen miranda they have other sections on this board. 81.84.168.59 (talk) 03:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No, you've got it wrong. She was a Portugese citizen by birth, and a Brazilian national. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

If the rule that Wildhartlivie said is true then the nationality in the article must be changed cause its against wikipedia rules. And so she should be refered as portuguese-american and not portuguese-born brazilian. If you all are pro rules then you have to respect the rules and the statements you do as editores. And baseball bugs carmen miranda had portuguese citizenship and nationality. She never had brazilian nationality. My comment since the beggining is that she should be refered as portuguese and could also be refered as portuguese-brazilian if right after it was refered that she maintained the portuguese citizenship all her life and lived as a foreigner in Brazil and in the USA, which is true and is what is in the portuguese article on wikipedia. My all issue was with portuguese-born brazilian essencially because it emphasizes that the person in question is fundamentally brazilian, which is not tue since she only had portuguese citizenship and so it should be the other way around, cause in the end she being important to brazilian music doesn't make her fundamentally brazilian and erase/diminish the portuguese citizenship she had, so in the end the not correct but acepted way should be portuguese-brazilian. The editor of this article didn't agree with me and we entered in a "war", and so i asked other editores to comment. But since you all started to state rules and this and that, then i want to see if you are gonna respect the rules u stated and change the nationality of carmen as the rules of wikipedia states 81.84.168.59 (talk) 04:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No. You've got it wrong. She was Portugese born and had Brazilian nationality because it was in Brazil where she became notable. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't know how many times this has to be said. No one is dismissing the fact that Miranda was born in Portugal, however, she is also Brazilian because she spent the majority of her life there and is closely associated with the country. Like it or not, she was a Brazilian national. The article also points out that Miranda is not Brazilian by birth so I've no idea what this battle is about. No one is diminishing or erasing anything because, again, the article clearly states where she was born and the country she was associated with. Pinkadelica^♣ 04:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Im sorry but saying portuguese-born brazilian is saying she is fundamentally brazilian and so it diminishes the fact that she only had portuguese citizenship. As i said i can agree in the expression portuguese-brazilian but not in portuguese-born brazilian, which is a clear way to diminish the portuguese side. I think this is very clear about the issue of diminishing. Other thing, living in a country doesn't grant you automatically citizenship of that country, that is wrong and i think its also very clear. So stating she is brazilian cause she lived there is wrong and makes no sense at all. Also very clear is the comment of one editor about the rule of biographies in wikipedia. Will you continue to state you don't see what is the problem? An editor has commented and stated his opinion on this issue, refering to a wikipedia rule. You have to respect it now. 81.84.168.59 (talk) 05:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

You've got it wrong. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Im sorry but i didn't. Carmen Miranda was popular in the 40s and 50s, she arrived in the states in 1939, and she became notable in the states. Thats in the article. The rule the other editor refered to said a person nationality is the country she has citizenship (in this case portugal) and the one where the artist became notable (in this case the states) and so folowing the wiki rules she should be refered as portuguese-american. I think this is clear. Regarding the other issue, in english and i think we all understand very well the english language, stating someone is portuguese-born brazilian isnt the same as saying the person is portuguese-brazilian. Portuguese-born brazilian says that the person is fundamentally brazilian and that is very wrong since we all know that she had only portuguese citizenship. Since the editor of this article didn't agree with the expression portuguese or portuguese-brazilian and a reference to the fact she only had portuguese citizenship, and prefered to go to "editorial war", i and him/she had to respect the opinon of other editors, especially the ones that state wikipedia rules. Not respecting it is going against the wiki rules. I will not repeat myself anymore, i think my explanations were very clear and i wish for a quick agreement and resolution of this issue 81.84.168.59 (talk) 05:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, but you've got it wrong. She was called "The Brazilian Bombshell", not the Portugese bombshell, not the American bombshell. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

thats a nickname not a nationality nor an citizenship cart. I will not go again explaning and discussing all that things that were already discussed. I was very clear and the editores where also very clear. Im stopping replaying to that genre of comments and im waiting for a resolution. 81.84.168.59 (talk) 05:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The resolution is that you've got it wrong and the other editors have it right. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

then the rule stated by the editor Wildhartlivie should be applied and in this case nor me nor pinkadelica were right. Im sure pinkadelica will respect the rules of wikipedia or will arrive to an agreement to change the portuguese-born thinggy cause the way it is now it was already being proven by Wildhartlivie that its again wikipedia rules. End of discussion.81.84.168.59 (talk) 05:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

At the moment the lead reads "Portugese-born Brazilian", and that seems just fine. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Nah, I'm not going to agree to change the "thinggy" as I think the wording now is fine. I don't know what rules I'm supposedly disrespecting, but I've stated numerous times why I think the wording is fine and why it's within policy. Unless there's a new argument here, I believe the previous consensus stands. Pinkadelica^♣ 16:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

lol you not changing it because you don't want to and don't agree with it is simple insulting and reflects how a bad and biase editor you are. The rules of wikipedia are clear and you are not respecting them. Don't say u don't understand cause they are very clear under this topic. A request for comment was been made and a editor stated a rule of wikipedia that you refuse to acept and respect. Doing so you are violating wikipedia rules. And don't even say "the previous consensus" cause this was never a consensus everyone can see that by simple reading other users posts and to everyone of them you didn't listen to and prefer to hide the true facts. I hope some other unbiased editor that aren't a friend of yours see how you deal with people that say the true. I will stop commenting here cause i can't do anything more than i already did. God is great ... big hug 81.84.191.2 (talk) 23:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I've never had anything to do with this article before, but I saw the call for comment. We allow people to self-identify, so if she considered herself Brazilian (and everybody else did too), that's what she should be described as. The whole debate seems quite frankly a bit silly. Lampman (talk) 01:07, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Unsure why there is a need to specify that the English-language version states she is Brazilian when the Portuguese-language version says the same thing. 98.71.198.236 (talk) 06:56, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The thing is portuguese-born brazilian isn't the same as portuguese-brazilian. The first one enphatizes that she is cleary a brazilian and diminish that she is portuguese. The portuguese version article states she is a portuguese-brazilian and says she never adquire brazilian citizenship. What is true and so a fact. The discussion here was to change portuguese-born brazilian to simple portuguese-brazilian. An editor showed the wikipedia rules about intro of biographies and it cleary show the way the article is writen right now is against wiki rules. I never defended to erase brazilian from the intro (even though the wiki rules state she shouldn't be adresses as a brazilian) i only defend the english version be equal to the portuguese version that again states she is portuguese-brazilian and says she never adquired brazilian citizenship. But the editor of this english version is too stubborn to change it. 81.84.189.24 (talk) 12:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

You're trying to somehow "claim" her for Portugal despite her having no connection to Portugal other than having been born there. However, it does sound like the Portugese wikipedia needs to be corrected, so you had best go ahead and change it to make it conform to the properly-worded English wikipedia article. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:56, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, what happens at the Portuguese Wikipedia has no bearing on what happens here at all. It's a foreign WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument and we all know how those pan out. Pinkadelica^♣ 16:51, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

That's true. My point is related. Just because Portuguese Wikipedia has it wrong is no reason to also have it wrong in English Wikipedia. But someone fluent in Portugese could take the initiative to correct this error in the Portugese Wikipedia. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Well this is truely unbelivable. Lets see. The issue is how the opening paragraph of this article should be written. Per WP:MOSBIO, a person nationality should be refered as the country where the person is a citizen or was a citizen when became notable. This is wikipedia rules. Carmen Miranda was never a brazilian citizen and so she shouldn´t be refered as a brazilian in the opening paragraph. What part of this don't you understand? Wikipedia rules are very clear. You keep claming i want to claim carmen miranda to portugal. I do not need to do that cause she was a portuguese citizen, the relation and connection with portugal are there and are a fact. Givin preference to "brazilian" that she never was inspite of the true fact that she is portuguese is unbelivable. To this be a correct wikipedia article she should be refered as portuguese period. But im not even asking for that, im asking for the word "portuguese-brazilian", cause even though its incorrect to write in the opening paragraph due to wikipedia rules, i think there isn't a problem to consider her brazilian. But remember also this expression is wrong and against wikipedia, cause in the end she should be refered as portuguese. 81.84.168.41 (talk) 00:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

You've got it wrong. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:22, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

IP user(s), Tacv, whomever you are, let me state this clearly. Consensus for this change is against you. You're beating a dead horse here and frankly, it's past the annoying stage. If you would like to further pursue this matter, I suggest you do so through the appropriate channels because I think it's safe to say no one here is interested in hearing the same weak arguments repeatedly and being accused of violating some phantom Wikipedia rules. Pinkadelica^♣ 02:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

1st this was never a consensus. 2nd just click on this link WP:MOSBIO and you will see wikipedia rules. Is that so damn dificult. This is not a phantom rule. You not acepting this is a clear sign that you are the sttuborn where. The rules exist to be respected and rules are on my side. 81.84.144.47 (talk) 18:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

You're wrong on nearly all counts. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

We cannot erase the fact that Carmen was born in Portugal, but this is a minor detail in her biography. Her parents had more children after they arrived in Brazil. There's no difference between Carmen and her siblings that were born in Brazil. She was raised here since she was a little baby. Her sister Aurora Miranda was also a famous singer in Brazil, but she was born in Brazil. I can't see any different between Carmen and her sister, given the fact that both were raised together in Brazil, as Brazilians. The fact that Carmen was born in Portugal is a minor detail. The terms "Portuguese-born Brazilian" seems perfect. Opinoso (talk) 19:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi opinoso. yes it seems perfect to you since you are brazilian. The fact that she lived in Brazil and in the USA where she became famouse (yes she became famouse in USA not in Brazil) is not even at question. The thing is the expression of portuguese-born brazilian is against wikipedia rules and against the true biography of this artist. If this article wants to be correct then it should be writen as the true facts and not based on personal opinions and personal tastes that she is brazilian. So do you want a "make out" and not true article that is against wikipedia rules or do you want a correct article that state the true facts and respects the wikipedia rules? Wanting to defend personal opinions (like the fact she is brazilian) and not the true facts, is to me a clear sign that this editores are biase and do not represent wikipedia name correctly. 81.84.181.212 (talk) 16:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

THIS IS A WASTE OF TIME - I recommend to other editors to ignore the above editor from here on out. It's an endless loop. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.