Talk:Cardigan (song)

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Cardigan (song) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 11, 2021	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on August 12, 2020.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Taylor Swift wrote the lyrics to the song "Cardigan" to co-writer Aaron Dessner's music in around five hours?

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Classification

I will suggest not classifying this song as the lead single until radio adds in either US, UK or Italy are confirmed.--N Ø 06:30, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Single?

Where is everyone getting the reference from that this is a single? I do not see it on All Access. Someone on Folklore (Taylor Swift album) said it has been confirmed as a single, but there is not a single source on the article that confirms this. So far, the only sources used are entertainment outlets but they do not seem as reliable as a source that explicitly shows that this song will impact radio. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 08:58, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In this article Billboard names "Cardigan" a fist single. infsai (dyskusja) 20:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Single status

I 100% agree with the editors above that this was not confirmed as a single until the announcement it was sent to radio. I wish we could come together and write a consensus (better than WP:SINGLE?) for what constitutes a single/promo single on Wikipedia and have that be referred to instead of going through edit wars every time a popular artist releases a new song or local consensus lol. There should be clear rules for excluding random websites writing "new "single" by x artist was released!" as a source. Perhaps if Billboard wrote that, it could be treated with more weight. I think the Vulture ref should be removed from the first sentence. Heartfox (talk) 20:18, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, Billboard said that it's a first single. infsai (dyskusja) 20:34, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Release date

I believe that the release date should be listed as July 27, since that is the day that it impacted radio as a single. Its release on July 24 was a part of the album, not as a single. The fact that the video premiered on that date is irrelevant since a music video =/= a single release. — Status (talk · contribs) 18:46, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wholly disagree. "Cardigan" was promoted as the album's lead single beginning with its release on July 24. Several sources reported this that day, along with it receiving a music video. It was concurrently released with the album, in the same fashion as "Break Up with Your Girlfriend, I'm Bored".—N Ø 19:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Being "promoted" as a single isn't the same thing as being "released" as one. You can refer to something as being a single without it being released as one, yet. I would disagree the date used on "Break Up with Your Girlfriend, I'm Bored" as well. They were released as individual songs (not a single) alongside the rest of the album and then a few days later were sent to radio as an official single. "In Your Eyes" is an example of where it was done right, using the radio date instead of the album date. — Status (talk · contribs) 19:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - A single doesn’t equal a music video, but neither does radio play. According to Single (Music), it doesn’t cover radio play/music videos that much, so we need to come to a consensus somehow. Sources called it a single beginning on July 24, not today. It was released to streaming services and digital downloads on July 24. That means it was a single beginning on July 24. If all this happened today, it would be different. We updated this Wikipedia page on July 24 saying it was a single, not today. If anyone can find sources saying it was a single starting today, not 3 days ago, then I think it should be put as July 27. But until then I think it should be July 24, as it is when it was released. The same thing is happening with "Exile" right now, so we need to come to a consensus somehow. Doggy54321 (talk) 19:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - I agree with Status – just because it was released on July 24, it doesn't equate it being a single, as that song was released as part of the album. Hell, I remember on that day, I kept reverting edits that called the song a "single" because there were no sources to confirm it. Entertainment outlets had called it a single on July 24, but where did they even get their source from too? All Access clearly stated July 27. Besides, I think it's worth mentioning that Swift had only started selling "Cardigan" as a single on her website on July 27 too, as per her Twitter. Before this, the only source I could find selling just "Cardigan" as a single alone was Amazon, but Amazon also sell copies for individual non-singles alone too, such as for "The 1" and "This Is Me Trying". If we don't take into account radio, her releasing the digital and physical copies of "Cardigan" as just a single alone on the 27th should be able to prove that this song was only released as a single on the date itself. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 17:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - I mean the whole reason songs are called "singles" is because they're a single release—released separately from the album. I don't personally consider a music video a "release" of a song, it's more promotion of it (like a TV show performance or something). Radio play doesn't equal a single... lol what? So we're going to go through every airplay-only single article and revert them all to songs now? Come on... It was also not available for purchase on Swift's website (or anywhere) on the 24th, so I would have to agree with the July 27 date. I do agree though that it was referred to as the lead single on July 24, but I can't agree that it was released on that date. Heartfox (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why everyone above formatted their posts as replies to mine instead of starting from the left hand side. Either way since consensus has been established, someone can go ahead and change it to the July 27 date. I'm not objecting.--N Ø 12:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So what consensus are we agreeing on? Over at "Exile", seems like the release date has been the date the song was pushed out to radio, yet the date here is different; I'll change to July 27 for the time being for standardisation. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 11:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the release date in the infobox should be July 27, as it is the day we have reliable sources backing it up being released as a single. We can separately mention the release of the song together with the album and the music video on July 24. Shuipzv3 (talk) 12:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — IVORK _Talk 03:28, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cardigan (Taylor Swift song) → Cardigan (song) – Primary search topic for the term "Cardigan (song)". Don Toliver's song of the same title does not have an article. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 17:31, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The "Taylor Swift" has become extraneous as the Cardigan (song) page is open. Doggy54321 (talk) 18:24, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. — Status (talk · contribs) 19:17, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support since the Don Toliver song of the same name also came out this year and hasn't achieved the same notability as the Taylor Swift song, regardless of whether it has an article or not. Calidum 19:21, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Cardigan instead. Her song is clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and move the Dab page to Cardigan (disambiguation). 114.125.245.132 (talk) 05:05, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, while I support the proposed move I would strongly oppose this one right now.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Way too premature. This requires long-term significance which is typically not known until a few years. Shuipzv3 (talk) 07:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As the requester for this page move, I strongly disagree with this move. I doubt people would be searching this song if they just search for "cardigan", as opposed to the sweater. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 17:08, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Like @Yaksar said, I agree with the original proposal, but not this proposal, because per the disambiguation page, people don’t only search for this song, they could be searching for Toliver's song, the clothing item or more. Doggy54321 (talk) 02:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. since the Don Toliver song doesn't have the own article. 36.77.135.75 (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. yes. BawinV (talk) 05:35, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as WP:INCDAB with respect to the Don Toliver song, which is covered on Wikipedia at Heaven or Hell (Don Toliver album). WP:Disambiguation is for when a "title is ambiguous, most often because it refers to more than one subject covered by Wikipedia", even "as a subtopic" (that means we don't necessarily require a topic to have its own page - if ambiguity can possibly occur, we disambiguate). -- Netoholic @ 07:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Netoholic, Don Toliver song with the same name doesn't have its own article until now. 36.77.135.75 (talk) 08:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm sorry if I sounded incoherent in my nomination reasoning, but I don't think I've disagreed on the idea that every topic does not require its own page. This is not so much about disambiguation, but more of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. With all due respect to Don Toliver, his song of the same name has very clearly not established the same notability as this song. You can cross-refer to other song articles, such as "Everytime" and "Blank Space" where we do this. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 11:30, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is about the un-disambiguated title (ie Cardigan). Since this involves two recent songs which are both covered by Wikipedia, its all about being clear and complete with the disambiguation terms per WP:INCDAB. -- Netoholic @ 20:33, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your definition of covered is pretty liberal. Cardigan is mentioned in passing twice in the article, and that's it. Calidum 15:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All that means is that there is a non-zero number of readers/editors that would look for Cardigan (Don Toliver song), and our disambiguation should be kept clear. Cardigan (song) should redirect to the DAB per WP:INCDAB, or at the very most redirect to the Swift song with a hatnote at the top noting that the Toliver song exists - but the article itself should use clear and complete disambiguation terms (which in this case means including the artrist name). -- Netoholic @ 20:37, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. – zmbro _(talk) 14:04, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support We do not further disambiguate someone with (Russian politician) when a non-notable political candidate's name redirects to an election page, or (American chef) if a non-notable cooking show contestant redirects to the show's season. Likewise, further disambiguation when the other topic is limited to a small mention as a non-notable song on an album is not necessary in this case.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support There is no need for disambiguation. CountyCountry (talk) 04:08, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Spiderpig662 (talk) 13:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support more concise and no further disambiguation is needed when this is the only song titled "Cardigan" that has or warrants its own page. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

editorialization / adjective use

hi friends! i came to this article in passing and noticed that the descriptions of the instrumentation and music video seem more like a positive review than an objective description. if someone who knows more about wikipedia than i could either correct it to fall in line with wikipedia standards or tell me that it’s fine and i’m wrong that would be appreciated. thank you! 2600:6C44:5F7F:BAB0:C4FD:D200:878B:15B7 (talk) 17:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I've removed from the lead some subjective adjectives, some of which were unsourced (like "melancholic violins"), and that bit of WP:SYNTH ("widespread acclaim"). Poirot09 (talk) 09:37, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]