Talk:Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Strings

Hi there, I don't want to discourage you, but please note that Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons is one of our featured articles, and so has already been through a pretty thorough peer-review process in the last year or so; I notice a few of your recent additions appears to contradict some of the information in the references, and you seem to be highlighting these differences in the actual article body, which looks a little confusing. I was wondering whether if you see any mistakes in the article, you might be able to bring them up on the talk page first, please? For example, you claim these puppets didn't use strings, yet just looking at [1] reveals your information is incorrect, so I'm automatically a little dubious about some of the other details you have added. Thanks. Bob talk 21:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

These puppets honestly did not have strings. If you look carefully at the video clip on YouTube which you mention you will see that the puppet people have no visible strings attaching them to an overhead operator. In particular, watch the camera zooming in on the Captain Black puppet on the airport observation deck at time index 0'54".

Notice how all the puppets, when they move, are typically either seated (like Colonel White in the opening shot of that video clip) or are shown only in a head-and-shoulders shot, with their legs and feet out-of-shot, as in the observation deck scene; this is so that the puppeteer can control them from beneath, either using rods or using levers and pulleys (the use of which is mentioned in the article). In contrast to earlier Gerry Anderson shows, in which strings were used, such as Thunderbirds, the new show used a system known as 'under-control', meaning that the puppets were controlled from underneath, rather than from an overhead gantry. The vehicles in the special effects shots - such as the Angel jet fighters - are model miniatures, and these were flown using wires; but because of Gerry's personal hatred of the strings, no strings were used to control the puppet characters.

If you examine the quote in the article from puppeteer Jan King, you will notice that she talks about the under-control system, which was the only means by which the redesigned puppets of Captain Scarlet could be made to move realistically, because the former system which used strings did not give accurate enough control of the puppet movements.

Notice how the boxed quote from Gerry Anderson in the article supports this: "the problem was that exact and precise movements [of the puppets] became more vital than ever".

There is some confusion, arising from the need for lip-synching the puppet to the pre-recorded dialogue: one wire was still needed, carrying the electrical signal for the lip-synch solenoid, but it was not used to control the puppet's movement. Also, the under-control system could not be used for long-shots (establishing shots) where the puppet had to be seen in full-frame; but the puppets were normally only animated when in close-shot or medium-shot, because the lip synch mechanism was small and hence could not be seen in long-shot.

I see from your comments on this talk page that you are unwilling to accept fan-based websites, as being an unreliable source of information; and you are correct - they are. But the suggestion you are making - that these puppets were operated on strings - is one that the fan sites mentioned do not suggest. If you look there, you will see they talk about strings in connection only with the pre-1967 shows (Supercar, Stingray, Thunderbirds), not this one.

Stephen Poppitt 07:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to get into an argument, but using that YouTube clip again, just look at 0.14, 2.00, 3.38, 5.15. They're especially visible in the last one. Are you perhaps thinking of the lip-synch solenoid, which was moved from the head into the torso of the Scarlet/Joe 90 puppets, which allowed for the more 'human' proportions? Bob talk 09:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi. I too certainly don't wish to sound uncivil, and I thank you for sprucing up the article prose, but I honestly can't understand this assertion that the puppet heads categorically did not have strings. Not one of the print sources cited in the text attests to it. Bentley's The Complete Book of Captain Scarlet - besides featuring a large number of film screenshots in which strings are quite obviously visible - contains quotations from former production staff which specifically mention their use. The comment from King, as presented in the article, is a shortened form of a longer quotation on page 16 of the book, which also comprises the following statement: "The only strings went to the puppet's head and occasionally one would be put on each hand so that they could move their arms, but there were no strings on the legs." Furthermore, on page 18, it is written that "'Wired up' with a maximum of seven special steel wires drawn from tungsten at a diameter of 0.005 inches by P. Ormiston and Sons Ltd, the puppets would be tested from the 12-feet-high puppet gantry before being passed to Iris Richens's wardrobe department for testing."

Just out of interest, are there any particular fan sites to which you are referring at the end of your post? Regards, Super Mario Man 21:08, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Future TFA Blurb

To be copied to Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests at an undetermined future date as part of a proposal for Wikipedia:Today's featured article. Super Mario Man 03:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Dinky toy of the Spectrum Patrol/Saloon Car.

Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons is a 1960s British science-fiction television series created by Gerry Anderson and produced by Century 21 Productions for Associated Television. In keeping with Anderson's earlier productions such as Thunderbirds, it mixes marionette puppet characters and scale-model special effects in a filming technique dubbed "Supermarionation". The plot of the 32-episode series, set in 2068, centres on an interplanetary war between Earth and a race of Martians known as the Mysterons. Captain Scarlet, top agent of the Spectrum international security organisation, acquires "retro-metabolism" (a Mysteron healing power that enables him to recover from normally fatal injuries), making him Earth's "indestructible" ultimate weapon against the threat from Mars. Reception to the series has acknowledged a "dark" tone and a large amount of depicted violence, although the programme has a target audience of children. The Captain Scarlet franchise has entailed tie-in media such as original novels and comic strips, and a computer-animated reboot series, Gerry Anderson's New Captain Scarlet, commenced broadcast in 2005. (more...)

Dinky toy of the Spectrum Pursuit Vehicle.

Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons is a 1960s British science-fiction television series created by Gerry Anderson and produced by Century 21 Productions for Associated Television. In keeping with Anderson's earlier productions such as Thunderbirds, it mixes marionette puppet characters and scale-model special effects in a filming technique dubbed "Supermarionation". The plot of the 32-episode series, set in 2068, centres on an interplanetary war between Earth and a race of Martians known as the Mysterons. Captain Scarlet, top agent of the Spectrum international security organisation, acquires "retro-metabolism" (a Mysteron healing power that enables him to recover from normally fatal injuries), making him Earth's "indestructible" ultimate weapon against the threat from Mars. Reception to the series has acknowledged a "dark" tone and a large amount of depicted violence, although the programme has a target audience of children. The Captain Scarlet franchise has entailed tie-in media such as original novels and comic strips, and a computer-animated reboot series, Gerry Anderson's New Captain Scarlet, commenced broadcast in 2005. (more...)

These pictures are rather nice - is there anything in this article about the toys/merchandise, etc? It might be quite nice to put one or two of these pictures as an illustration of this (and would serve a duel purpose as well, in that they show the vehicles without being fairuse images!). Bob talk 00:14, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I've used the SPV image to illustrate "Filming" and the SSC image to add to "Other media". If a potential TFA blurb will be restricted to the use of one of these free images, as far as illustration is concerned, then I don't see why they couldn't both appear in the article itself. I have to admit that kids' toys have been neglected somewhat in the "Other media" section (PS2 driving game excluded) in favour of coverage of the audio EPs, novels/novelisations, comic strips and VHS and DVD releases. The main book source, Bentley's Complete Captain Scarlet, dedicates a couple of pages to toys, but still discusses them only in quite general terms, which leaves me unsure as to how much meaningful text I could insert to offer a decent treatment. At the GA review 12 months ago, SilkTork made the recommendation of a media franchise subarticle - that remains an option. For the moment, however, I'd still prefer to continue upgrading the Anderson series articles as a long-term goal. I'm also considering the possibility of putting in an FA candidacy for Doppelgänger, or perhaps Thunderbirds Are Go - I'll see. Super Mario Man 03:41, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

BBC2 repeats

This article says they didn't begin until autumn 1993 but I have strong memories of them running earlier that year in the spring months. Does anyone have access to a schedule record? Timrollpickering (talk) 12:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I haven't found anything to contradict what the article currently states. For a basic search, the Google News archives offer only three articles from the period between 1990 and 2000 that include the phrase "Captain Scarlet", and the earliest of these is dated 1 October 1993. Super Mario Man 13:03, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

TVS repeated the series some time in the mid eighties, (1984-86-ish) during the afternoons.

References in other media

There is a very important and influential mixtape in a specific genre of Drum and Bass by LTJ Bukem which prominently uses sampled dialogue scenes from CSatM. This mix is hugely important in that scene and could be mentioned at the end of this article somewhere, like in a 'references in other media' small section? I only found this page because it was featured on the main page today, and I recognized "Captain Scarlet" and "mysterons" (also a Portishead song) as being from the MixMag Live 1995 mix. I then made the connection and read the article, learning alot which is what's great about wikipedia. Anyhow I thought it was pretty cool to find this out, and it wouldn't be out of place if that mix was mentioned. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.114.177.66 (talk) 16:54, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment - that's "Shade from the Darkside" isn't it? I don't really know whether it's notable enough for a mention in the article, though, as going down the "in popular culture" route often leads to big unruly lists (like on the Thunderbirds page, for example). Thanks anyway. Bob talk 15:57, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Peel's attribution

Although he suggests that the characterisations became less endearing,[116] Peel's attribution of the reduced believability of Captain Scarlet is to a perceived over-emphasis on the visual and effects-led aspects to the series at the expense of its human side.

It may be just me, but I could not parse this last sentence from the Puppets section. Peel's attribution is to a Y on the Z to the series? I am not sure if "of the series" is meant, but the intended meaning still remains unclear. Is there a missing "was" in the last part? -84user (talk) 06:59, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I've tried to clarify the sentence. Central to this, I believe, is Peel's argument about the realism of the puppet design not being the sole factor to diminish the quality of the characterisation (i.e. since the puppets were no longer caricatures, they had less character and charm). Rather, he thinks that the focus on effects bore much more heavily on the "human side" of Captain Scarlet. Super Mario Man 15:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Osama bin Laden-Captain Black paragraph?

This recently added paragraph is an interesting analogy, although isn't it a little tenuous? I wonder whether a letter from a fan magazine is really worthy of a mention in here. Bob talk 22:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Recently, in the Fanderson magazine FAB issue 67, a letter to Gerry Anderson page 9 [127] Mark Reeder draws an interesting symbolic analogy between Captain Black being very much like Osama bin Laden and The Mysterons similarity to al-Qaeda. He claims that bin Laden might have been influenced by watching Thunderbirds and Captain Scarlet in his youth and could probably have got some of his terrorist ideas from Gerry Anderson's shows.

Well, it's certainly ... original. But unfortunately, it does go rather too far on the original research front. That said, the idea of bin Laden watching Thunderbirds and Captain Scarlet as a child is mind-blowing. Super Mario Man 17:08, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's been removed in the meantime, anyway. I'm guessing the guy is proposing that when bin Laden was about eight, he must have watched "Alias Mr Hackenbacker", "Edge of Impact", "City of Fire" and "Terror in New York City". As theories go, it's quite a compelling one, albeit not very convincing (did they even get C21 Productions in Saudi Arabia?) Bob talk 17:39, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, of course, although Captain Scarlet has been broadcast in more than 40 countries since it first appeared in 1967, I doubt that Saudi Arabia is one of them. However, the whole terrorism-based comparison seems to hold at least some merit in the case of the film Thunderbirds Are Go (that is, with the Zero-X sabotage in the opening act - a quotation from a review that made this connection is in that article). Anyway, back to Scarlet, perhaps bin Laden also watched "The Heart of New York", "Seek and Destroy", "Renegade Rocket", "Flight 104" and - with a name almost as regrettable as "Terror in New York City" - "Winged Assassin". Or perhaps not. Super Mario Man 21:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

CAPTAIN SCARLET

why wasnt he called captain red? or did scarlet sound better? and is there a captain red or burgundy or crimson in the spectrum organisation of the tv series? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.179.119 (talk) 14:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Scarlet is a particularly intense form of the colour red. But yes, it probably sounded better than just 'Captain Red' - at the time 'Red' had Cold War connotations which may have had something to do with it.