Talk:Canticle V: The Death of Saint Narcissus

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Classical music: Compositions

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Britten in 1968

... that Benjamin Britten (pictured) composed Canticle V: The Death of Saint Narcissus, setting an early poem by T. S. Eliot for tenor Peter Pears and harpist Osian Ellis, in memory of William Plomer? Source: [1]
- Reviewed: Martha Heasley Cox Center for Steinbeck Studies
- Comment: This is an homage to Benjamin Britten, born 22 November.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2123 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited:
Interesting: - n
Other problems: - Too complicated.

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The article itself is very fine. It is long enough and new enough; Earwig detects no problems. The chosen ALT, however, would not be attractive to people unfamiliar with classical music. Looking at the second paragraph in "Background" I find two pieces of information which could provide better hooks: 1.) Britten composed the Canticle V in the wake of his heart surgery and 2.) he revised its instrumentation because his declining health left him unable to play its piano accompaniment as he originally intended. I'm sure there's more material in the article that could be used for alternative hooks. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please word that for me? I have a hard time thinking about something I don't like, such as a hook about his health problems. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CurryTime7-24: Perhaps:

ALT1 ... that Benjamin Britten (pictured) composed Canticle V: The Death of Saint Narcissus after recovering from heart surgery? (This might require revisions to the article, as it is not mentioned when the piece was composed or when the surgery took place).

ALT2 ... that Benjamin Britten (pictured) composed Canticle V: The Death of Saint Narcissus for tenor and harp as he was unable to play the piano following heart surgery?

Another possible alternate could be the connection to Narcissus from Greek mythology, but that might be slightly more specialist than the heart surgery angle hooks so I'll only suggest such wordings if you think that would be better. I agree that the original hook is too long and complicated to meet either DYKINT or DYKTRIM. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Narutolovehinata5: Thanks for your help! ALT2 would be best here, but it needs a further tweak. It ought to make clear to the reader that Britten had originally conceived the accompaniment for piano and that he intended to play it himself, but that failing health precluded this option. Therefore he rescored it for harp instead. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:37, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to understand why you want to focus on his health problems, instead of mentioning that he wrote the music with friends in mind, tenor Peter Pears who was his partner at a time when that was a problem, harpist Ellis for whom he had written many parts, and in memory of his libretto-writing friend. - I have no source for times of surgery and composition, just a serious source saying that he couldn't play the piano because of it ("not well enough"), and a less serious source saying that his right hand was partly paralyzed. I haven't heard that he had to rescore, - just that in the four previous canticles, written over decades, there was piano, and he had played it in the premieres, accompanying his partner. - I'll leave for vacation in two days, with unpredictable access to the internet (I won't take my laptop). Perhaps I just let you do it and unwatch what was intended as a memorial of lasting friendship. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ps: I believe that the title of this piece alone is already interesting, raising curiosity. As it's not obvious from that title that is is a composition for tenor and harp, I believe this information should be presented in some form, which ALT0 and ALT2 have but not ALT1. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

pps: Template:Did you know nominations/Canticle IV: The Journey of the Magi (6 January 2022), Template:Did you know nominations/Canticle II: Abraham and Isaac (22 November 2022), Template:Did you know nominations/Canticle I: My beloved is mine and I am his (22 November 2023). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CurryTime7-24: I was going by what was written in the article, so ALT2 reflects the current article wording. Your suggestion would need to be reflected in the article. Still, maybe:

ALT3 ... that Benjamin Britten (pictured) intended Canticle V: The Death of Saint Narcissus to be scored for piano, but scored it for harp instead due to health reasons?

@Gerda Arendt: Perhaps CurryTime, or another editor like 4meter4 or Theleekycauldron may be able to explain it better than I can, but this is not about wanting to highlight his health issues. In fact, I would rather not if there were alternatives and it wasn't the most interesting or eyecatchy part of the article. It's not about focusing on his health problems: it's about highlight a hook fact that is likely to catch the attention of readers and entice them to click on the article and learn more about the Canticle. By contrast, a hook mentioning the writer and the tenor is unlikely to have the same effect. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You will have read in the article that all five canticles were written with the tenor voice of Peter Pears in mind. Compare last year's. Not to mention at least the word "tenor", better his name, seems against the composer's sentiments for his beloved. - The article title alone is catchy, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's lots I could say about ALT0, but (a) I was pinged and (b) I don't have much to say outside of what I already said at the RfC where we decided we didn't want hooks like ALT0. I will say that Canticles I, II, and IV, which Gerda linked above as examples of her successful hooks, were all in the bottom 10% of hooks by viewcount in their respective months. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't link to "successful" hooks, but to hooks in a series, begun in 2013, the composer's centenary. I am happy to take low viewcounts, it spares others to be blamed. Template:Did you know nominations/A Hymn of St Columba (2019), Template:Did you know nominations/Te Deum in C (2013).

I would like to mention the poet, because Britten liked his writing, + the youthful work was printed late.

I would like to mention the dedicatee because he wrote many librettos for Britten. However, trying to please:

ALT0a: ... that Benjamin Britten (pictured) composed Canticle V: The Death of Saint Narcissus to be performed by his friends, tenor Peter Pears and harpist Osian Ellis. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, if you are trying to please, then please drop the Pears/Ellis angle, as it simply is not going to happen. If you want to avoid long DYK discussions and have brief ones, either propose hooks that will catch the attention of most readers as opposed to just yourself, or agree to such hooks proposed by others. Again, please drop ALT0's angle as no matter how it is worded, no such hook is going to be approved here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Two things. One, not even most Christians know who Saint Narcissus is, so I don't think most readers will find the title alone catchy. Second, consensus can change. What may be acceptable angles or focuses for hooks in the past will not always be so. Just because it was accepted before to use angles related to Pears does not mean necessarily mean that such proposals will be accepted now. Indeed, consensus develops from previous experience. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1) You will have read in the article that the character is none of two Christian Saints, but rather Greek mythology in disguise. What I meant is more that "Death of" (whoever) may raise curiosity. It seems to be the title of that poem. 2) Re-reading the former reviews, I enjoyed their brevity. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was talking more about the title of the song, not the article. You were asking if the article title alone is catchy, and the article title mentions Saint Narcissus, so I was commenting based on that fact, not about the article. Death alone will probably not raise interest without additional context. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think I understood that, and we see again that we find different things interesting. And so may readers. I find this title enigmatic and would like to find out more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]