Talk:Cannabis dispensaries in the United States/Archive 1
This is an archive of past discussions about Cannabis dispensaries in the United States. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Comment
temporary author comments[edit source | edit]
The author disagrees with the reviewers below who suggest this article should be a subset of the "cannabis" article. Cannabis is one item sold at dispensaries. They can also sell accessories, related merchandise, pipes, vaporizers, souvenirs, etc. Hovering your mouse over the first and second footnotes will help the reader see that the term "marijuana dispensary" is defined in several of the United States and now in other countries. Just as Drugs Stores and liquor stores are a separate and unique types of retail stores, marijuana dispensaries deserve the same distinction. The various local, state, and country laws regarding dispensaries deserve their own subsection. Noteable dispensaries deserve their own subsection. I will aim to demonstrate my belief by creating more depth and citing my references. --Potguru (talk) 16:20, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- User:Potguru, part of the problem that I see is that you haven't done the necessary research on the subject beyond a quick google search. Wikipedia articles require additional research to create a topic. Most, if not all of the information you have added already appears in different articles, so if you want to create a new article on a singular topic, you first need to start with a good source that covers the topic, not pick different sources and combine them together. Have you been to your local library or consulted any bibliographies on this subject? To begin with, you should be able to identify at least one good print source (book, newspaper, magazine article) that summarizes the subject before continuing. Then, you can work from there. Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
The above poster set to war with me and gone to great efforts to stop the publication of this article including recommending it for deletion. In the process he changed the original name of the article from marijuana dispensary to his prefered cannabis dispensary, a thing I for which I can find no evidence to support its existence. --Potguru (talk) 19:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- The edit war is over now, it's probably best to forget it. Let's move on to more productive conversation, please. I think we'd all like to help improve the article at this point, at the bottom of this Talk page is more discussion relating to the article title and the appropriateness of various terms. Chrisw80 (talk) 19:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
I hope to remove much of the misguided noise (that I created) below. Please jump to current discussion (current bottom of page) here. --Potguru (talk) 15:00, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
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(propose remove section) my thoughtsI see you have been working on this article for a while. I was just wondering if you had by any chance reviewed the Head shop article. I am not saying they are the same thing but there may be a bit of overlap between the your article and it. Krj373 (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
That is the primary difference is the legality of one over the other. They are some what related and the head shop article is older & has been polished over the years. It was just a thought. Your article keeps popping up in the recent changes. So I figured I would take a look and see what you where doing. Another piece of advise when you make a comment on a talk insert ~~~~ behind your comment. It adds a signature otherwise the sign bot will get you. :) Krj373 (talk) 16:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC) Thanks Kkj373!! --Potguru (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
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Commons categories
I started https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Marijuana_dispensaries.
I see also shops. Same thing? Please advise. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:49, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Awesome, yes they all the same, thanks you rock!!! --Potguru (talk) 04:45, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
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infobox or no infobox
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Hi there, I'm a little confused by the info box, it contains information about marijuana (species, conservation status, etc.) but the article is about the dispensaries. Isn't this duplicating information more appropriately located in Cannabis? Thanks! Chrisw80 (talk) 03:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
I'll get back to an image, Anna, as soon as I find a good one... I promise!! --Potguru (talk) 04:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC) I would like to remove this section. Anna Frodesiak, may I remove this section (if yes, feel free to remove it yourself). --Potguru (talk) 15:03, 23 January 2016 (UTC) |
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being discussed below, this section is archived
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Should this article be named "Cannabis dispensary" to keep it consistent with our cannabis articles? Sizeofint (talk) 16:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Continuing the above idea. I am having a difficult time locating sources that actually use the term "cannabis dispensary". The vast majority of references seem to prefer the term marijuana dispensary. For example:
--Potguru (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Article title vs ProseThe article name (ATM) uses Cannabis but, in every instance in prose it's marijuana, seems one needs to be changed and the article's title is unlikely to change during an AfD. Community consensus is Cannabis and that also is unlikely to change, regardless of how many reliable sources use marijuana. Since this is an obvious Keep, might as well get this discussion started. Mlpearc (open channel) 16:58, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Potguru, you're welcome, I just want to find a good solution here. Obviously folks have a wide variety of emotions on the topic. Remember that we're aiming for consensus in this discussion, it's possible that the "right" solution may not be to anyone's complete satisfaction. Regarding the IBT article, it's still relevant as I'm specifically referring to the title of the page. :) Regarding your point 2, I wasn't necessarily saying that all the sources I used were WP:RS, sorry if there was a misunderstanding there, just adding some additional info for consideration. For point 3, I understand that many regulating authorities call it as such, and again that's merit to your argument. (joke)Though, when have you known the government to get things right? :)(/joke) For point 4, I think this shows that there is confusion about the term and this discussion about which to use is important. I just wanted to point out that there ARE people who do use Cannabis in this context that are in the industry. What about your thoughts regarding the definition of marijuana that I cited? Chrisw80 (talk) 22:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC) I think that a good definition of marijuana is cannabis. I would have written ... the parts of the cannabis plant that are normally consumed. But that is not the same thing as a marijuana dispensary which is (most often) licensed and regulated by a government tax office. --Potguru (talk) 22:52, 22 January 2016 (UTC) |
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Not ready for mainspaceI've moved this back to draft due to problems that were never addressed in the original reviews. Viriditas (talk) 20:11, 20 January 2016 (UTC) Please be more specific. Previous items have all been addressed. I consider your action vandalism. --Potguru (talk) 21:29, 20 January 2016 (UTC) In another post, which I moved to the users talk page, the user gives the following vague reasoning for the article deletion. " have moved it to Draft:Cannabis dispensary. Most of the article is unsourced original research or a poorly composed combination of different topics. Viriditas (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)" To which I contend: The article, an original work by me, is completely researched and includes 28 distinct references backing up each and every claim. I am unaware of any non obvious claims made that still need citation but if you can point me to one I'll modify the statement or make a citation. This is not a reason to delete the article. To the claim "poorly composed combination of different topics", I respond: I am confused by your statement. The article is a combination of facts about marijuana dispensaries including information about the history of marijuana dispensaries, the laws that effect them, their existence in popular culture, differences between medical and recreational shops. Perhaps you could be more specific and try to improve the article instead of removing it with little justification? Response
At a current ratio of 14 against to 1 (Viriditas) the community seems to disagree with your position as noted here. --Potguru (talk) 17:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)Potguru (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC) for reference, most of the original references user above questions (from my notes) : (moved to below) --Potguru (talk) 01:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC) |
Famous Amsterdam shops
I commented out a request for more info on this on the article space. The Bulldog and the Grasshopper (now defunct) are probably two of the best known; I think there are a few others. It's been awhile since I've visited.OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:15, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for that, now we have some names. Anyone have any pictures? Or a location? What are they called today, still coffee shops? --Potguru (talk) 18:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that we already have an article for Coffeeshop_(Netherlands), and as I noted in the [[2]] for this article, this article's title should probably be moved to Cannabis dispensaries in the United States, since that is the major scope of the coverage. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for that, now we have some names. Anyone have any pictures? Or a location? What are they called today, still coffee shops? --Potguru (talk) 18:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Coffeshops are country specif, and they are NOT marijuana dispensaries... they are illegal operations which (by definition) is not what a marijuana dispensary is. --Potguru (talk) 21:04, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- They are not illegal? Theroadislong (talk) 21:08, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, coffeshops are illegal whereas marijuana dispensaries are fully regulated. http://www.newsweek.com/marijuana-and-old-amsterdam-308218 --Potguru (talk) 13:56, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
"Cannabis dispenaries"
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This now redirects to Medical Cannabis. Seems this redirect should be deleted now. LaMona (talk) 20:40, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
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Continued attacks
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United States
USA or Worldwide?
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Article should not be US centric as there are marijuana dispensaries in many countries.
Ah great, glad your back. As you can clearly see I did not put this in the article but on the talk page while I look for reliable articles. It is interesting that the largest known directory of marijuana dispensaries know to exist on the planet is not considered a reliable source by you. Perhaps you can help me find some good sources that clearly demonstrate marijuana dispensaries exist around the world and not just in the USA as you and Jamie would have us believe. --Potguru (talk) 22:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
See here: Viriditas Continues Attacks Note: I just started a discussion under "precision" in new section below to address this issue. --Potguru (talk) 15:57, 23 January 2016 (UTC) |
Verifiable and legitimate references that use the term marijuana dispensary over cannabis dispensary
Verifiable and legitimate references that use the term cannabis dispensary over marijuana dispensary
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Arguably, there have been no "good sources" from any major media outlet that seems to use the terminology "cannabis dispensary". --Potguru (talk) 02:00, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Instead of making new comments in this section Please jump to current discussion (current bottom of page) here. I propose to remove this section. Please feel free to remove any of my words from this section. --Potguru (talk) 15:22, 23 January 2016 (UTC) |
totals - scholarly article count
Please learn about how we evaluate and use reliable sources before telling us how we should use them. Viriditas (talk) 17:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
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As I look through the google scholar articles I think... wait... going to google scholar is going to get university articles which will predominantly be written by graduate level medical researchers and I realize... most of them will use the term cannabis. Boy was I surprised to find that "cannabis dispensary" is used about 20% as often as "marijuana dispensary" on google scholar. Nope, I'm still going with marijuana dispensary for the win. --Potguru (talk) 02:22, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
--Potguru (talk) 02:30, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I've told you if you would like to contribute please provide a single verifiable link to a source that indicates the common name for marijuana dispensaries is cannabis dispensaries. As you know I've been challenging your (as yet unverified) claim for days and you have still not provided a useful link. Have you nothing better to do that harass me? --Potguru (talk) 03:19, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I looked through that source again and all I can conclude is
Overall I'd rate your source a 1 out of 10, hardly the type of document we should be using as an authority on th3 subject matter of marijuana dispensaries. --Potguru (talk) 05:24, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Articles supporting authors contention
Are we at a truce? Are we actually going to be civil? This is a serious question. --Potguru (talk) 03:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Once again I must disagree with your erroneous assertion. However, I will continue. This is probably a good source to start a discussion. Verifiable. Legitimate. A fair overview of the facts at hand.
While you are free to attack the credibility of an extremely well known reporter who is an expert on the subject matter at hand, I'll accept your critism and find another source. Similarly your article is not about marijuana dispensaries in any way. Lets try to find something FAR more relevant. --Potguru (talk) 03:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Let's try this While I understand that governments have done all kinds of horrible things to people throughout human history I think we should both be able to agree that this is an excellent source of information. Verifiable and approved as a collaborative effort by state level experts on the subject matter. --Potguru (talk) 03:51, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
While I appreciate your thoughts on the subject I'd like you to try to back up what you say. Yes it is a primary source, and a very good one given they are the authority on that particular subject in that particular region. Wikipedia does not require authors to only use second sources, there are very good reasons to use primary sources and this is one such time. While, again, I appreciate your opinion about what might be considered politicized work but stick strictly to the page I've provided I'd like you to get me a better reason it should not be considered as primary source material. --Potguru (talk) 05:09, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
You should probably point to the current version that reads: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources". And then you were going to give me an actual reason that we should all say the source is unreliable and that it should not be cited as evidence of primary source material using the term we are discussing. --Potguru (talk) 05:31, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
You are still ignoring my legitimate questions, you cannot prove my source unreliable. But because wikipedia prefers articles be built upon secondary sources I'll give you another. Please tell me why this secondary source is not a perfect document upon which we can build the case to name this page:
Of course as you read the document you come to this other, useful, source of information we can start from: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113822156 --Potguru (talk) 05:42, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Anna, it's ok, he REALLY had to try hard to find that link and it DOES NOT support his argument. It's clear that Viriditas is only here to harass and he has no useful links to contribute. I respectfully request we all follow the link he provided and see if ANY of us can determine HOW he concluded that NPR is a biased news organization using the cited article as a source. If we are just going to keep playing games without evidence what is the point? --Potguru (talk) 13:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
ANNA this is a run away train. The "contest" above on name preference is not based in fact. (Can you end it so we can restart it with all the rules up front?) The argument of opinions of cannabis vs marijuana should NOT occur on this page, yet that is exactly what is going on. People need to be aware of wikipedia's rules BEFORE their opinions are collected otherwise this will continue forever "I think marijuana is a racist word and I think we should not use it". ((With no evidence to support their position)). Somebody moved my "site policy" section out of the "contest" and with no rules it becomes a simple game of what word someone likes with no evidence. I prefer facts and evidence, not conjecture based mainly upon white guilt. --Potguru (talk) 14:44, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
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Chris, thanks for the advice but your premature and ill requested call for comments is causing this run away train. Without context all you have done is start another "marijauan" vs "cannabis" fight. That serves nobody. I am attempting to keep this train from running off the rails by trying to find useful references and a starting point for a conversation. If I walk away from this page, and your RfC remains, all we do is argue. My plan, removed by viriditas, has us moving toward a discussion. Put the page back the way I made it and see... all the crap up top removed and a sensible conversation about what wikipedia rules are most important and then a section by section consensus. My approach achieves an end. Please, I beg of you, end the RfQ in favor of what I am attempting. Else I'll need to keep noting to the respondents that this is not the place to argue the merits of the words marijuana vs cannabis. --Potguru (talk) 00:48, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
- That's not going to happen. An RFQ doesn't end because a single purpose doesn't like the way it's going. OhNoitsJamie Talk 01:05, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Proposed request for comments section (Proposed RFQ Not Yet Open)
Experienced editors are familiar with the policies and guidelines. Please do not reboot or restart an RFC because you don't like the results. Viriditas (talk) 17:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
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Let's start with our main objective: Try to figure out the best name for the article. There are several wikipedia policies we need to consider. They are: Article Titles
Guides
Only consensus belongs above this line if you have a wikipedia policy manual that belong above this line just add it (for now). Once we determine the relevant sections of guidelines we can begin to rank them and determine how to apply the guidelines to our specific issue... how to name this article. Please modify this section directly, ignoring the author (this section only)... we need to get this right before we RFQ. --Potguru (talk) 17:09, 23 January 2016 (UTC) |
Proposed request for comments comments (Proposed RFQ Not Yet Open)
Experienced editors are familiar with the policies and guidelines. Please do not attempt to reboot or restart an ongoing RFC because you don't like the results. Viriditas (talk) 17:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
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While I appreciate Chris's attempt (far above) to start an RFQ to achieve a consensus I believe the structure for the discussion must be fully laid out before the request begins. What we appear to have above is an opinion fest on one term vs another with no background or context. That said let's try to determine which guidelines are most relevant to the topic at hand and let's see if we can't rank their importance BEFORE we start requesting, what often amount to be, opinions from the community. --Potguru (talk) 15:06, 23 January 2016 (UTC) Precision - USAThe precision section requires a title should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that.
NeutralityAll encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. Non-neutral but common names (marijuana vs cannabis)When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language reliable sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title (subject to the other naming criteria). Sometimes that common name includes non-neutral words that Wikipedia normally avoids (e.g. the Boston Massacre or the Teapot Dome scandal). In such cases, the prevalence of the name, or the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper noun (and that proper noun has become the usual term for the event), generally overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue. Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers will type as a first guess and balance that with what readers expect to be taken to.
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