Talk:Camino Real de Tierra Adentro

See also Talk:El Camino Real!

- SquisherDa (talk) 11:40, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Untitled

There is a much more extensive entry for this in Spanish Wikipedia (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camino_Real_de_Tierra_Adentro). A quick, simple translation of it would improve this entry's quality significantly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.81.81.82 (talk) 17:43, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Expand on U.S. coverage, including in map

Hi, Asiaticus, i just noticed your linking to the Camino Real in New Mexico article which i developed somewhat, and, hmm, you seem to be editing there now. I am glad you are developing this stuff.

Here in this overall article about the whole thing, it certainly would be good to have U.S. historic sites that are sections of the trail recognized, including explicitly in the map which currently only shows dots within Mexico. I like that map, and I see that behind the scenes it is just constructed within the "Location" section by lines like {{location map~ |Mexico |position= left|lat=20.0985|long=-99.827222}}. Which should be easy to continue up through Texas and New Mexico. Which should include San Juan Pueblo, New Mexico, apparently the actual terminus just a bit past Santa Fe, and various points along the way.

FYI, the exact locations (coordinates) of the 14 U.S. NRHP-listed trail sections are unfortunately not yet easily known, because they were "address-restricted". I think these are all sections which have historic integrity and evoke the past trail, such as untouched original roadway pieces which happened to go up a steep slope, so that later modern roadways were all routed differently. These are certainly interesting sections to include specifically as dots, if/when their locations can be disclosed, which I think should be done. I meant to press the New Mexico department of historic preservation about whether some or all of these could be disclosed. But also there are dot locations where the exact route of the trail is knwon and is now a city street, say, which could also be dots on that map.

Also I presume this is like the Natchez Trace and the Chisholm Trail and other trails where there were, historically, variations and splits and rejoinings and so on, so the dots won't all line up in one path. The Mexico dots look like they do not define just one path.

Do you agree? Comments? --Doncram (talk) 00:25, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

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Hi, Doncram

Yes I like the idea of making the Mexican Map more complete. It would be nice to get the Chihuahua section finished to Presidio of El Paso del Norte. There they crossed the Rio Grande. However until 1848 the trail was on the west bank of the Rio Grande. That year there was a flood that isolated the Piro pueblos down to Isleta on the US side of the river and the road with it. So yes there are a lot of wandering of the trail especially cause by the wandering of the river especially during big flood events.

I have been finding a lot of settlements along the Rio Grand, now vanished, once existed in the Rio Grande valley and were flooded out by the River. People learned to settle up the tributary streams and/or on the bluffs above the flood plain.

The road often had to divert when the Rio Grande would cut over to the edge of a ridge leaving no level ground to pass along the east bank. A new route had to go up a side valley and over a ridge or two to get back into a side valley that took them back to the river plain. Socorro historical society has a website that shows where those places are.

An author George D. Torok who wrote From the Pass to the Pueblos, that I have been reading, talks about the Chihuahua section and that in Texas too. The Piro people who moved down to the El Paso area during the Pueblo revolt settled and established the towns below El Paso, USA and El Paso del Norte (what is now Juarez) at Socorro, Isleta and some other places that were all along the river. I think the road dodged east to the river just south of Isleta and then followed it up the west bank through the Piro Pueblos to the Presidio of El Paso del Norte. There they crossed it and passed north on the road between the Franklin Mountains and the Canyon the Rio Grande had cut and into New Mexico around Anthony, Texas.

I know about the "address-restricted" problem. I encountered it when I did my Fort Thorn article. Its their way to impede looters and vandals. Don't know how effective it is. I think that some of the locations will have to be deduced from historic descriptions and such.

So what do you think we should do about the New Mexico section, I think Texas parts can be on the existing map and most of of the route in Dona Ana County too. Camino Real de Tierra Adentro did not really get into Nuevo Mexico until they arrived at the Paraje del Perrillo on the south side of the Jornada del Muerto, where the military escorts from the garrisons of Chihuahua and Nuevo Mexico handed them off to each other. Also the lowest settlement for Nuevo Mexico was above the Jornada del Muerto. I think it would be best to have a separate map for New Mexico locations, and maybe the Texas ones too, since the Piro were expat New Mexicans.:^) Asiaticus (talk) 01:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

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Very interesting stuff, i did not think about the possibility like you suggest, that a valley path could get pushed over a ridge that way, etc. I also have no familiarity with, about Jornada del Muerto and Paraje del Perrillo and Piro Pueblo people and other articles linked. A lot about availability of water, which is much less of an issue in northern trails ... there is one shortcut/cutoff of the Oregon Trail where it matters a good deal, and water can obviously matter, but it is not so much of an issue further north, in general. I am curious about how these articles are written (by you?), with a style that is flowing, almost running on; i wonder if it is you or others writing in nearly a stream of consciousness style about stuff you know very well. I have no idea if it can match up closely to sources; i am used to writing in a stodgy way, perhaps, where there is an inline reference after almost every sentence.

My Wikipedia-writing experience is almost all on U.S. National Register of Historic Places stuff, which is almost all later, where there are stage coach stations and pioneer houses or later more substantial houses. There is some, but less, coverage of non-Anglos, and while many archeological sites are listed there usually is no information available, for me, about them.

For New Mexico, in particular, NRHP coverage includes lots of archeological sites, and the info is "address restricted". Sometimes one can get NRHP documents that are redacted to hide location information, but not often. It is hard to tell if a place should be kept address-restricted. In some cases, the location has become extremely well-known, like when a public archeological museum opened on a given site, and the restriction should be dropped and documents released. I don't know if the New Mexico roads locations should be kept address-restricted or not, really, but I surmise that some of them are in fact well-known and that some of them cannot really be harmed by people. Different than say a site of an archeological dig where people/vandals could do damage and rip out artifacts destroying potential knowledge. I was meaning to ask, really, about these.

Okay about separate map for the New Mexico ones, with or without Texas. Perhaps I or you could start something in the same format as the Mexico map, perhaps in a subpage of the Talk page for New Mexico, to start. --Doncram (talk) 02:40, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Doncram Somewhat belatedly, it is true there were several paths that the road took over time or more often by travelers using horses and mules (faster) vs those with herds or wagons (slower). For a time from the 1650s, the El Paso, area had missions established and a Presidio. The area was the lower part of Nuevo Mexico, the commander of the Presidio being the Lt. Governor. Following the Revolt the area south of the Jornada del Muerto was the only remaining part of the province. It became the base for the recovery of the north. The Piro refugees, (skilled agriculturists) and their pueblos became the foundation of successful settlement and base for the reconquista of the north. Some time after that the lower region became part of the Chihuahua province, in the early 18th century I think. Torok's book has a lot of history of the whole road and its settlements from northern Chihuahua to its apex, lots of references to everything talked about. I have been reading "The Presidio and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain 1570 - 1700, Vol.One by T. H. Naylor and C. W. Polzer that tells a lot about the early history Mexican sections of the road. Regarding the Map(s) I think one extending from Mexico to northern New Mexico. It should be larger so there is adequate room for labels. Also separate maps for New Mexico and West Texas/Northern Chihuahua.

Asiaticus (talk) 01:41, 4 April 2020 (UTC)