Talk:Camarão Indians' letters

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 20:13, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

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The six Camarão Indians' letters

• ... that the Camarão Indians' letters (pictured) from 1645 are the first and only known texts written by Brazilian indigenous people until the Independence of Brazil? Source: https://jornal.usp.br/cultura/pesquisa-revela-troca-de-cartas-em-tupi-entre-indigenas-do-seculo-17/
  • ALT1: ... that the first known texts written by Brazilian indigenous people (pictured), written in 1645, were only completely translated in 2021? Source: https://cultura.uol.com.br/noticias/43756_cartas-de-indigenas-escritas-em-tupi-sao-traduzidas-para-o-portugues-pela-primeira-vez.html
  • ALT2: ... that the Camarão Indians' letters (pictured) were written in Old Tupi because sender and receiver spoke it, although both were not literate in the language? Source: https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/ilustrissima/2021/12/cartas-em-tupi-traduzidas-pela-1a-vez-mostram-visao-indigena-sobre-formacao-do-pais.shtml
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mary Doyle Curran
  • Comment: Translated from Portuguese Wikipedia, but seems to be in good shape. Also, sources are in Portuguese, so I must assume good faith to a certain degree myself.

Created by Erick Soares3 (talk). Nominated by LordPeterII (talk) at 21:30, 30 October 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @LordPeterII: Good article. going to approve in good faith since I don't understand portuguese well. Onegreatjoke (talk) 13:47, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Comment: there's this 2021 Guardian article about the letters. For much I would insert a mention that the language is lost/extinct, since it would also call attention on why this translation is relevant (beyond being the only known document produced by the Indigenous people during the colonial times) - I think that this information could fit in ALT2. Erick Soares3 (talk) 22:43, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Article title

Article title Erick Soares3, LordPeterII, RodRabelo7, Onegreatjoke, can I query the article title? Who were the Camarão Indians (índios Camarões)? In en and pt Wikipedia Camarão Indians (índios Camarões) is only used as part of Camarão Indians' letters (cartas dos índios Camarões). It may be an old name for the Potiguara, so possibly "Potiguara letters" would be a better translation. The only English source, the Guardian, refers to "letters in the Tupi language" so "Tupi letters" or "letters in Tupi" could be possible. The only Dutch source, Trouw, refers to "Unique letters from the seventeenth century written by native Potiguara" ("Unieke brieven uit de zeventiende eeuw geschreven door inheemse Potiguara"). I haven’t read all the Portuguese sources, but Jornal da USP refers to "letters in Tupi between 17th century indigenous people" ("cartas em tupi entre indígenas do século 17").

I also think that "Camarão Indian letters" reads netter in English than "Camarão Indians' letters".

According to the article Potiguara, "Potiguara, means "shrimp-eaters", from poty, "shrimp", and uara, "eater" ", or "comedores de camarão" in Portuguese.

References

TSventon (talk) 02:30, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for inviting me to the talk. The “Camarão Indians” (or in Portuguese índios Camarões) were the senders of the letters. They mainly were Filipe Camarão (who wrote half of them) and Diogo Pinheiro Camarão (who wrote two of the six letters). There’s also Simão Soares, who merely wrote four sentences at the end of the first letter, and Diogo da Costa, who wrote one of those correspondences.

By the way, as far as I’m concerned “Camarão” was never a name for the Potiguara people, even in old times. “Potiguara”, indeed, has the element potĩ, which means “prawn” (camarão in Portuguese), but I have never seen it used anywhere. For instance, Joseph of Anchieta, in a book published in 1595, refers to them as Pitiguáres do Paraîba (first paragraph of the page 11 of the PDF).

I personally consider Camarões to be a canonical element when referring to the letters, as Teodoro Sampaio did so when he first approached them (his article is called Cartas tupis dos Camarões). Eduardo Navarro, who finally translated them, does the same in his article, using the term “Camarão Indians’ letters” in its title. RodRabelo7 (talk) 03:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

And I don’t have English as my mother tongue, as you may have already noticed. So, if you all feel that something seems more natural for English speakers, feel free to use it. RodRabelo7 (talk) 03:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you RodRabelo7, I have very little Portuguese, so the extra information is helpful. I see that Navarro uses "Camarão Indians' letters" to translate "cartas dos índios Camarões", so it is his official translation. The note on the first page of Sampaio's article refers to Filipe Camarão and Diogo Pinheiro Camarão as "os dois Camarões" so perhaps his title refers to the two letter writers. Presumably Navarro's "índios Camarões" is intended to mean the same as Sampaio's "Camarões". It seems odd to use the word Indians for Indigenous Brazilians in English, though I understand índios is more usual in Portuguese. As the article will be on DYK shortly possibly other editors will have ideas. TSventon (talk) 20:05, 1 November 2022 (UTC)