Talk:Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham

Pronunciation

I'm French speaking so I'm not going to make edits on the main page about how to pronounce an English word.

In my life, I've hear it pronounced Brou-Gam and Broug-Ham... while most of us here knows it's more like Broom. I tried my hand making an IPA string : (/ˈbruːm/) or (/ˈbrʊm/). But don't take my word for it, please check the "Current British English searchable transcriptions" at http://seas3.elte.hu/cube/index.pl?s=Brougham&t=&syllcount=&maxout=&wfreq=0-9&grammar= it takes a while to show any results but when they show, click on the Play button and you'll get a bunch of YT clips, clicking next each time you hear "Broom".

Netweezurd (talk) 00:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

60 Special

There needs to be ONE Article covering 60 Special, Fleetwood 60 special, Fleetwood Brougham, Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham, and Fleetwood. All of these names refer to the SAME model over time (with the partial exception of the FWD abominations of 1985-1992-93). Cadillacmike (talk) 14:27, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

To the last poster below,

Who wrote this thing? This page is a mess. I fixed the date this morning and I think I'm going to rewrite it later this week. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.88.81.139 (talk) 01:51, 22 January 2007

I don't know. It started out as just a bit about the '65-76, and eventually it grew into this. It looks like there's a bunch of stuff about the Eldorado in there for some reason. If you can figure this out, please do. --Sable232 02:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The last Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham was a 1996 model. It was a D-body, RWD, LT1 powered sedan. I don't know where this author got the 1997 date from.

This article is really confusing and inaccurate. I suggest that its factual content be extracted and merged into the Cadillac Fleetwood article and the inaccurate content be deleted. weetbixkid 06:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This article needs a lot of attention. As I understand it, Fleetwood Brougham was only a separate model from 1965-76. Eveything else on this page is just Fleetwood, I believe, when Brougham was just a trim line.

There was a great deal of misinformation here. For instance, it was claimed that the later models were K-body based. I don't know where the 1997 stuff comes from. I checked Auto Trader, and the only thing listed under "1997 Fleetwood" was a private ad for a Seville with a vinyl roof.--Sable232 05:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Downsize of 1977

Although the wikipedia Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham page contained no missinformation concerning the downsize of 1977 almost all of the other pages on GM full size models did. For the sake of consistency I'm adding a table of comparisons.

Here are the usual facts for four door models (which can easily be found in sales brochures and data books):

1971-1976

Headroom f/r 39.2/38.3

Legroom f/r 41.9/44.6

Shoulder room f/r 62.1/64.0

Luggage cap. (cu. ft.) 15.9

1977-1979

Headroom f/r 39.0/38.1

Legroom f/r 42.0/41.2

Shoulder room f/r 59.4/59.4

Luggage cap. (cu. ft.) 19.5

The EPA has published annual fuel economy guides since 1978. These guides categorize cars based on "interior space" which is defined as the sum of passenger volume and trunk or cargo volume. For example a midsize car has 110 to 119 cubic feet of interior space and a full size has 120 or more. Passenger volume is computed by finding the product of headroom, legroom, and shoulder room for both front and rear, converting each to cubic feet, rounding to the nearest cubic foot and then summing them.

For example the 1977-1979 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham has 39.3x42.0x59.4 = 97,297.2 cubic inches of passenger room in front. Dividing this by 1728 cubic inches per cubic feet yields 56.3 cubic feet of front passenger room. It has 38.1x41.2x59.4 = 93,241.4 cubic inches of passenger room in rear. Dividing this by 1728 cubic inches per cubic feet yields 54.0 cubic feet of passenger room. Rounding to the nearest foot and adding them yields 110 cubic feet of passenger volume.

Now turn to any 1978-1979 EPA fuel economy guide and what you'll usually find is this for a Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham:

BODY TYPE/INTERIOR SPACE PASSENGER/TRUNK OR CARGO(CU.FT.) 4DR-110/20

EPA fuel economy guides obviously did not exist in 1971-1976 but repeating this calculation for a 1971-1976 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham yields 122 cubic feet of passenger volume. Thus the interior space of a four door 1977-1984 Cadillac Sedan de Ville is 110 + 20 = 130 cubic feet whereas the interior space of a four door 1971-1976 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham is 122 + 16 = 138 cubic feet. Thus clearly the 1971-1976 has more interior space than the 1977-1984.

The main reason for the difference is of course shoulder room and the difference between 62.1 inches of shoulder room and 59.4 inches is dramatically obvious to anyone who has seen both cars. It's also why it's width that makes a roomy car roomy and not length.

This also underscores the fact you cannot shorten a car by over a foot, make it narrower by over 3 inches, lose nearly 900 pounds and not lose interior room.

I know that the GM ads of the time pushed the idea that the 1977 full size cars were just as roomy despite the drastic downsizing. This usually involved mentioning (trivial) increases in headroom or legroom from the previous year. (Interestingly, by odd coincidence, most full size GM models experienced correspondingly small decreases in headroom or legroom in the two years before the downsized models were unveiled.) However, nobody took it seriously then because anyone could see that there was a substantial decrease in room. And besides all of the interior dimensions were published in the sales brochures and data books for anyone to see.

I can only guess that someone has an agenda and is bent on promoting 33 year old sales propaganda. It is a vain hope of mine that wikipedia will someday be a source of factual historical automotive information.

Sadowski (talk) 19:18, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

This Article is an Enourmous Mess

The "Fleetwood Brougham" combination only dates back to 1965. And it only applies to four door models. And it was retired after 1996.

I suppose this is partly Cadillac's fault due to their inconsistent use of names.

The Fleetwood Brougham is effectively the descendent of the Sixty Special Fleetwood. (Cadillac used a 133" wheelbase off and on from 1942-1976 and always for one or the other.) I recommend limiting the content to 1965-1996. I also recommend including a subarticle about Fleetwood Brougham in the page on the Sixty Special but no doubt the Sixty Special purists would object.

All of the other stuff about Fleetwood Eldorados or Eldorado Broughams should be put elsewhere or deleted.

Sadowski (talk) 04:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Fleetwood Brougham only a seperate series from 1977-1986 according to reputable resources.

It's been agreed that this particular page needs drastic editing. There was no true seperate Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham Series until 1977 and none after 1986. I will correct this page's content to reflect that referenced fact. All content contained here already has duplicate coverage on the relevant pages. Sadowski (talk) 04:39, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

So why does American Cars of the 1960s by John Gunnell list multiple Fleetwood Brougham models in the 1960s, for example? Right now your reasons are baseless and you should discuss further rather than delete. --Biker Biker (talk) 04:50, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Fleetwood was a coachbuilder acquired by Fisher in the 1920s and Fisher was acquired by Cadillac soon after. Cadillac series were listed as Fisher or Fleetwood bodied for many years afterward. Brougham was the 4-door subseries of Eldorado from 1957-60. In 1965 Brougham became an option package on the Fleetwood bodied 60 Special. In 1966 it became a seperate subseries of the 60 Special and from 1971 until 1976 the 60 Series was offered only as a Brougham.

There was no seperate "Fleetwood Brougham" series of Cadillac until the 60 Special Brougham was discontinued after the 1976 model year. Personally I think Krause's publications and the Cadillac data books trump anything by John Gunnell. If he contradicts these facts (and not to be rude) he's just plain wrong. I'll be changing it back unless you can provide stronger evidence (than my Cadillac data books and Krause).

Sadowski (talk) 05:06, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

So based on your personal opinion of one author versus another you delete a massive section of content? There are many other sources which have Fleetwood Brougham models during the years you deleted. Please don't delete content again without proper discussion to allow proper consensus to be reached. --Biker Biker (talk) 05:27, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

If there are other sources that have Fleetwood Brougham models then feel free to cite them. In fact there was only one Fleetwood Brougham "model" ever and that was from 1977-1986. Thank You.

Sadowski (talk) 05:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm puzzled. What, for example, do you think this car is? It looks to me like a 1971 Fleetwood Brougham. The 1971 Cadillac brochure says it is a Fleetwood Brougham. But it can't be a Fleetwood Brougham because you say it doesn't exist. Bizarre. In fact you can look through many of the Cadillac brochures at oldcarbrochures.com and find many many references to cars that you say don't exist. --Biker Biker (talk) 15:56, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm equally puzzled. First of all that's a sales brochure which often offer a great many inconsistancies from year to year. Data books are a much better source of information. Secondly, perhaps my eyes are suffering from presbyopia, but that sales brochure of yours appears to say "Sixty Special" there somewhere. In short, "Fleetwood" denoted the coachwork, and "Brougham" denoted the level of trim. The name of the series was the "Sixty Special". It would not be until 1977 that a separate series carried the name "Fleetwood Brougham."

In any case I've added referenced information (32 out of the 33 existing references) to support my case. Now the rest of the unreferenced balderdash in this article reads like a comicbook history of some alternate fantasy universe that frankly makes my eyes bleed. But we'll let it stand, as you apparently value that content so much. It also provides a great deal of comic relief.

Sadowski (talk) 04:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Made major changes tonight. Amazed nobody tried to stop me. Finally beginning to resemble the truth.

Sadowski (talk) 05:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The entire Fleetwood set of articles is completely disjointed. The naming isn't even correct. The Fleetwood name ALWAYS came BEFORE the series number. It was always Fleetwood Series 60 Special not the other way around, and the same goes for the Brougham options, e.g. Fleetwood Brougham, or Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham. There was also only one model line from the late 50s up to 1985 when the front wheel drive split off of the C body came. From 1985-1992 there were both FWD and RWD "Fleetwood" models. Confusing to say the least. but later unified as RWD for the last four years (1993-96)as Fleetwood with an optional Brougham package.

Someone with catalogs and / or Cadillac model reference material needs to sort through these disjointed articles and bring them together under a SINGLE article that should be named "Cadillac Fleetwood, 60 special, and Brougham", because these all refer to the SAME car model at different points in time and sometimes were used together (and for a short period, 1971-76, all three names were used for the one model in the lineup. I have brochures from 1964-2013 to verify this and have the material from 1958-63 showing the model naming of the various cars.

Instead of citing books written many of which contain errors, how about reading the original Cadillac service sales and marketing documents. If you do you will notice that the Fleetwood series goes back to at least 1964 when it was superimposed on the existing ElDorado and 60 Special models. Some time later (in the 1970s Eldorado was separated from the Fleetwood series thus going back to the 4 door sedan only.

The breakdown in Series and model names by year range:

1930s (or 40s) thru mid-late 50s there was one model, the "60 Special". During parts of this time it had a separate longer wheelbase and at other times the same wheelbase as DeVilles & series 62.

From about 1957 or so thru 1965: "Fleetwood 60 Special", thru 1964 same WB as DeVilles, in 1965 separate longer WB, also a Brougham "Option Package" was offered in 1965, but it was NOT a separate model (there was only one sales code of "M").

1966-1970: Fleetwood 60 Special OR Fleetwood Brougham (sales code M or P)

1971-76: Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham. This was the only time that all three "names" (Fleetwood, 60 Special, and Brougham) were all used together).

1977-1984: Fleetwood Brougham

1985-1992 Split between FWD 60 Special and RWD Fleetwood Brougham and / or Brougham. This was the ONLY time that the model name "Brougham" was used Without Fleetwood being in front of it.

1993-96: RWD Fleetwood with "Brougham" option package, but not a separate model. I believe there was one final year, 1993, for the front wheel drive "60 Special" model, but it didn't have Fleetwood in front of it. I don't have the catalogs in frnt of me but I have them (ALL of them).

And lastly, Fleetwood WAS a coach builder for Cadillac, but was acquired and became a division of GM before WW2. The Fleetwood body plant made all Fleetwood bodies up to and including 1970. I had a 1970 Fleetwood Brougham and its body plate and door sills had "Body by Fleetwood" on them. Fleetwood also made the all leather interiors of DeVilles and ElDorados in the 1960s. My 1968 DeVille Convertible is one of them.

Cadillacmike (talk) 13:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)