Talk:Butcher of the Balkans

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This page was nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion on April 2, 2013. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Milosevic redirect?

The nickname is not exclusively used for Milosevic as numerous reliable sources have used it for Ratko Mladic. [1][2][3][4] --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 21:08, 3 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that this should not be disambiguation page but an article which would explain why were some people referred to as the Butcher of the Balkans with story about Milošević's nickname being the primary topic.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:34, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see reliable English sources like "Andrija Artukovic, 'Butcher of the Balkans,' Dead at 88", Associated Press, January 18, 1988 that connect the sobriquet with Artukovic, but not Albright. I have included him as well. Since it primarily refers to Milosevic a note may be appropriate. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 18:00, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that referring to Milosevic as the BotB is notable topic which deserves the whole article. Not a note or disambiguation. The whole article should primarily deal with Milosevic being referred to as the BotB because in almost all cases sources refer to him as BotB. A note should explain other notable mentions, like Mladic, Artukovic...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In my Google searches I'm getting more results (113,000) for "Mladic "Butcher of the Balkans" -wikipedia" than results (71,100) for "Milosevic "Butcher of the Balkans" -wikipedia". On Google books the opposite is true. Since it's not that clear cut we can't do your suggestion. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 20:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You alone disagree with me but you concluded "we can't do your suggestion"?

There is one important thing you overlooked. Almost all results for "Mladic "Butcher of the Balkans" actually refer to Milosevic as the BotB while Mladic is simply mentioned somewhere in the same work. I think that all of you should reconsider my proposal again. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:17, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we (you and I) can't follow through with the suggestion because it isn't in line with the evidence. That is assuming you intended to contribute and cooperate rather than simply suggest another editor do it. Your claim that the sobriquet in "almost all" cases refers to Milosevic in the search of Mladic doesn't appear to be valid. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 21:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In vast majority of the works found in GBS results sources refer to Milosevic as the BotB.

Whether "we" (me and you) can or can't do my suggestion depends "we" (me and you) agree.

After going trough sources I realized there is not much of the story behind this nickname. In one period SM was referred to as the BotB and in another period he was referred to as 'guarantor of the peace in the Balkans'. That is the whole story which can be presented within the article about SM. I give up my proposal to dedicate a separate article to explanation of this nickname. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects for discussion

At RfD, a close as keep means keep the redirect. A close as disambiguate means change it to a disambiguation page. The closing administrator, and discussion, made it without a doubt clear that the disambiguation should be a separate page. Ego White Tray (talk) 19:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Previous discussion

Butcher of the Balkans (disambiguation) was moved here after an RM. For that RM, as well as additional discussion of the subject, see Talk:Butcher of the Balkans (disambiguation). --BDD (talk) 21:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reference for Karadzic

Express and Star. http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2008/07/22/time-catches-up-with-karadzic/

This was placed on the disambig page itself, but are style guide says to not include on disambig pages. Ego White Tray (talk) 01:10, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It actually belongs on the Karadzic article but I don't think that it would be a major asset to the article if I added this. It would look more like an attack. But you're right, Kartadzic is known as Butcher of the Balkans as well as Butcher of Bosnia. The latter is shared with Mladic. Staro Gusle (talk) 07:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Evlekis.[reply]

References for Pavelić

According to these sources, Pavelić was referred to as "the Butcher of the Balkans": [5], [6] [7],

You still haven't answered my concerns at Talk:Ante Pavelić#"Butcher of the Balkans". The three sources you linked here are 2004, 2008, 2009. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 04:53, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So what? This is not article about Pavelić, but about persons called like this... That he sure is. --WhiteWriter^speaks 13:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you sure? These sources are all vague - they claim it in a general manner, which is unsupported by other secondary sources. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

C'mon, please. Sources are more then ok, strong reliable international sources. Pass per WP:RELY. I disagree with your claim very much. As i finds this comment a WP:GAMETYPE vio, i will leave this conversation and this article, as it opens bad faith attitude explanation why sources are NOT ok. If you question the sources, use RSN, but without your commentary, but just bland question. All best, be well, i'm out. --WhiteWriter^speaks 16:13, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You disagree by way of assertion? Can you offer a modicum of an explanation, as opposed to blithely accusing me of gaming the system without any obvious motive or goal? Did you even read what I wrote at the linked talk page and above? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pavelić is indeed referred to as the "Butcher of the Balkans" in many sources. This fact alone merits his inclusion here. If anyone would like to discuss further then please do so at Talk:Ante Pavelić. 23 editor (talk) 18:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An encyclopedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. It is certainly a fact that you have found a dozen books via Google Books that refer to Pavelić as such, but that doesn't mean that this is necessarily generally so. For example, your first source is Encyclopedia of War Crimes and Genocide - why is their claim more relevant than the lack of such a note in other sources? The same paragraph refers to the Ustashe primarily as "Ustache", and it also describes the local Holocaust as the mass murder of 80,000 Jewish people, a number that significantly differs from the referenced information in The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia (as well as the analogous parts of Jews in Croatia and Bosnian Jews). Why is this source reliable? I haven't had time to look into the others in detail, but this kind of sloppiness in the first listed source should give anyone pause. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article says: Butcher of the Balkans is a sobriquet that has been used for the following individuals... Has Pavelić been referred to as such? Yes, he's referred to this way just as any of the other individuals are. 23 editor (talk) 20:01, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]