Talk:Burtas

Vurttat/Burttas

Really of Caucasian origin? Why they spoked Finno Ugrian language? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.116.165 (talk) 18:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

[1]https://translate.yandex.ru/?from=tabbar&source_lang=lv&target_lang=en&text=burts 176.65.96.48 (talk) 16:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

There are many nations who are speaking different languages from their ancestors - for example irish or scots were speaking different language in ancient times, but even though they are speaking germanic language nobody calls them germans... but they are presumably called celtic, though they are not using celtic nowadays. On the other hand there are similar nations within uralic linguasphere when in not so ancient times they gradually changed their language use to uralic. One of these are magyars, for example, or there is an example of bulgars who settled among slavic peoples in modern bulgaria and lost their language, but retained name.

Burtas actually are really suspicious because of their name. Also according to wiki in russian they were living from Volgograd to Samara - this is hardly finno-ugric or even uralic territory, but definitelly that was scythians territory e.g. they roamed across the steppe and also this is territory of scythan crop-grower culture - contrary to finno-ugric culture, that came to the Europe from arctic circle and they had hunter-gatherer culture as a basis. Burtas might be a part of nowadays mordvian ancestry - and mordvians nowadays are finno-ugric, but that doesn't mean, that all their ancestors were finno-ugric as well.

92.22.70.175 (talk) 12:35, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Transliteration of the Bibliography references

(someone that knows how to do it should update this following transliterated references on the main article's references section)

The bibliographic List in this article is set in Cyrillic characters. It should be also written in Latin Character-Set given the fact that this is the en.wikipedia, even if the bibliography it refers to is named and set in cyrillic characters, so that at least you get an Idea of what it is refering to and what is the subject of those references.

In this article the references are:

1. Брасос — Веш. — М. : Советская энциклопедия, 1971. — 600 с. — (Большая советская энциклопедия : [в 30 т.] / гл. ред. А. М. Прохоров ; 1969—1978, т. 4). ==> Brasos - Vesh. - M.: Soviet Encyclopedia, 1971. - 600 p. - (Great Soviet Encyclopedia: [in 30 volumes] / Ch. Ed. A. M. Prokhorov; 1969-1978, vol. 4).

2. Новосельцев А. П. Хазарское государство и его роль в истории Восточной Европы и Кавказа, гл.2, прим.96., гл.4 прим. 186—187.==> Novoseltsev A.P. Khazar state and its role in the history of Eastern Europe and the Caucasus, ch. 2, note 96., Ch. 4 note. 186-187.

3. Халиков, А. Х. К вопросу об этнической территории буртасов во второй половине VIII — начале Х вв. //Советская этнография. № 5.1985. — С. 161—164 ==> Khalikov, A. Kh. On the issue of the ethnic territory of Burtases in the second half of the 8th - early 10th centuries. // Soviet ethnography. No. 5.1985. - S. 161-164

4. Пензенская Энциклопедия Архивная копия retrieved 16. Dez. 2008 at Wayback Machine ==> Penza Encyclopedia Archive copy retrieved 16. Dez. 2008 at Wayback Machine

5. Афанасьев Г. Е. Буртасы и лесостепной вариант салтово-маяцкой культуры // Советская этнография. — 1985. № 3. ==> Afanasyev G. E. Burtases and the forest-steppe variant of the Saltovo-Mayatskaya culture // Soviet ethnography. - 1985. No. 3.

6. Галкина Е. С. Тайны Русского каганата М., 2002 ==> Galkina E. S. Secrets of the Russian Kaganate M., 2002

7. Буртасы // БРЭ. Т.4. М.,2006. ==> Burtases // BRE. T.4. M., 2006. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mognoo (talk • contribs) 15:22, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done Author names weren't necessarily transliterated, but all the titles were translated. Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 20:46, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Burtas

Could the name burtas come from the following meaning: burt, as in " bright" and As meaning " gods" , as in old norse Ase. 2A02:A210:3082:4D00:2501:BF16:BF9C:8A34 (talk) 20:53, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

look burtas in latvian vocabulary 176.65.113.131 (talk) 10:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Burtas merge proposal and Moksha

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was not merged. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 20:52, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

---

At least 2 new sources might have been added to prove the Brutachi are the same as Burtas. Moreover as per Minorsky there was a strong connection to Mokshas since they had been mentioned as Burtas in a number of Arab chronicles, they had the same princess Narchat in 13th c, and they all had Judaic names. I will add them. Any help in re-writing article Mokshas and Burtas is welcome. I'm going to make sections Pax Khazarica and Mongol Conquest in Mokshas soon ----Numulunj pilgae (talk) 22:15, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose merge proposal, on the grounds that there are too many other alternative origin stories (see Brutakhi#Unclear Identity) and hence it is best to keep them separate for now. Thanks for finding those sources though! Klbrain (talk) 11:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Klbrain. There is insufficient evidence equating del Carprine's "Brutaches" to the Burtas.
  Also, when quoting non-english sources, please follow WP:NOENG:

  If a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided ... If you quote a non-English reliable source (whether in the main text or in a footnote), a translation into English should accompany the quote.

  --89.206.112.10 (talk) 17:02, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

See also

• Moksha Hebrew names

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The territory of the Burtas and the way to them

The way to Burtasy from Ryazan (Arsania on ancient Arabic maps) passed through Morshansk, then Penza and to Syzran. Their possessions began from the northern territories of the Tambov region to Syzran in the Samara region. 

Quite a lot of toponyms on the Volga have the name Burtas.

Burtas is a river in the Penza region of Russia, a left tributary of the Vysha (Volga basin).

"Bolshoy Burtas" (now the village of Znamenskoye) — Penza province.

"Maly Burtas" is a village in the Pachelma district of the Penza region.

"Burtasy" is a village in the Purdoshansky rural settlement of Temnikovsky district of the Republic of Mordovia.

"Imyanle-Burtas" is a village in the Kaibitsky district of Tatarstan.

"Burtasy" is a village in the Kamsko-Ustinsky district of Tatarstan.

Large Burtas (tat. Oly Bortas) is a village in the Kamsko—Ustinsky district of the Republic of Tatarstan

Small Burtas (tat. Keche Bortas) is a village in the Kamsko-Ustinsky district of the Republic of Tatarstan.

Field Burtas (Chuvash. Vyrskassi - Russian Street) is a village in Novoshimkusskoye rural settlement of Yalchiksky district of Chuvashia.

"Purdoshki" is a village in the Temnikovsky district of the Republic of Mordovia.

Initially, the city of Ryazan (Arsania) belonged to the Erzya, before the arrival of the Slavs from the west to the eastern lands. After that, many Finno-Ugric populations disappeared: Chud, Merya, Muroma, Ves, Meschera, Shoksha, Burtas, Permians etc. There were: Mari, Udmurts, Besermyans, Erzya and Moksha.  The city of Kasimov was originally under the Meshchera people, but with the arrival of the Golden Horde, they switched to the Kipchak language, adopting Islam from them. Kryashens are Udmurts who managed to switch to the Tatar (Kipchak) language but remained Christians, did not have time to turn into Chepetsky Tatars. The Mishare Tatar group is an ancient Finno-Ugric Meshchera tribe who converted to Islam and the Kipchak Tatar language through mektebs and the holy Scripture in the Tatar language.

Ryazan Region, Tambov Region, Penza Region, Mordovian Republic, Nizhny Novgorod Region, Kirov Region (Votyaki), Mari Republic, Udmurt Republic, Perm Region, Komi Republics - were completely Finno-Ugric!

The Samara Region, the Orenburg Region and the Bashkir Republic were the lands of Bashkirs.

The Republic of Tatarstan, the Chuvash Republic and the Ulyanovsk Region were Chuvash landholdings (Ogur, Bulgar). In the era of the Golden Horde, Kipchaks (Polovtsians, Cumans) from the Astrakhan Khanate, the Crimean Khanate, the Siberian Kingdom begin to stay here, as well as establish Nogai districts. This is how the Kipchak Tatars appear, displacing the Bulgaro-Ogur population.

Saratov region and Volgograd region were under the control of steppe nomads, modern Kazakhs.

Тhe grandson of Chagatai — Buri and the son of Genghis Khan - Kulan engaged in a war with Moksha, Burtas and Arjans (Erzya) and in a short time took possession of them.

Vyatka province and the city of Vyatka belonged to the Finno-Ugric tribe Votyaki (Vetke), which are now related to the Udmurts and Permians. Now they have been renamed the Kirov region and the city of Kirov.

erzya, moksha, shoksha, burtas, merya and muroma - later turned into Mordvins (MordAs - UdMort)

Mostly now it is the Moksha people. The famous "Russian" singer Maria Nikolaevna Mordasova was from these regions, and was a Morshanskaya burtask.  There is Burtasov Maxim Anatolyevich — Russian biathlete, master of sports of international class from the Bashkir Republic.

176.52.107.179 (talk) 20:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)