Talk:Brumby

New topic

Collapsing long discussion

I have moved some comments that were put into decade-old threads down here so that the entire June 2020 discussion is all in one place. Moved material is indicated by talkquote formatting Montanabw(talk) 22:09, 25 June 2020 (UTC) Great constructive, better than reverting back all edits Shenqijing (talk) 10:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC) Hello, can you please come to the Brumby page and have a look and give some suggestions. I was called to the page myself due and asked to mediate a better term than ferial, as we have a Federal judge that in a ruling has eluded to the fact that this label is a little misleading and I tend to agree as it can give a narrative that a could lead to its mistreatment. His term that he has chosen is Brumby Shenqijing (talk) 09:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC) I think that that horses help with bushfires is a no brainer. If they eat everything as this page states then there is nothing left to burn. I think that this is more common sense than Science. Shenqijing (talk) 10:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC) There are to many may and maybe's for this page to be factual. My argument is that it should be diverted to a ecology page that is more inclusive of all evasive creatures. This page goes of topic. The starting of a feral horse page may be a better fit. We can put links to the ecology. And include science that supports the Brumby on this page. Shenqijing (talk) 10:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC) More so now the damage to the eco system is being more attributed to the wild bush pig. The problem is that there has been found some discrepancies because funding for evasive species maintenance. Licencing for shooting for etc. The ecology seems may be effected. Shenqijing (talk) 20:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC) I will need help to upload the evidence as I am new to edits on this platform. The decisions are not impartial and are showing bais, The Federal Court of Australia. File No 1569 of 2018. On 8th may 2020 The ABA Inc. vers the Vict Parks Inc Judge O'Bryanj Section 19 Ruled that the use of the term had undesirable conertations toward the Brumby and could be exploited by Parks Vic, the wild horse was not the best choice as it has a historical background of being introduced so the use of the term Brumby was and is the impartial name for the Australian equine. I also have up-to-date ecolagy reports from colleges arriving expectantly to support the pages now fair naritave of the Australian Brumy and not that from a totally ecologically outdated and bias and demeaning perspective. Shenqijing (talk) 11:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC), I have no confidence in the provision of non bias evidence presented on this page and would like to collaborate with moving this page forward to a more impartial representation of the Australian Brumy. Shenqijing (talk) 12:39, 6 June 2020 (UTC) Can I upload a pdf of the Australian Federal Court Case and Ruling to talk, and if so how can I do this. Amituofo 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 Shenqijing (talk) 12:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC) I have sent a message for Arbitration on this page. Thankyou Shenqijing (talk) 13:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC) The page has been revered back to non basis version. We can not say that the wiki editors apinion of the term ferial should not go above the decision made by a judge and the local termanoligy of bush Horse Shenqijing (talk) 02:03 Shenqijing (talk) 02:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC) The past comments about a federal case does not pertain to the evidence that I have provided, As this evidence I think is sufficient is current and on topic, I would like to remind everyone that the subject of this edit is about the word feral being used as a description for the Brumby, because of thelis the Science resourcing supports the parks Victoria case and not that of a free roaming horse. and because I have stood up for this injustice in name and intention I have been told that the Science and medicine that I study and apply in a clinical and enviromental setting and cappasity has no weight, the idea of the Brumby is a romantic version of the horse, and that I may not be able to speak English and communicate due to a cultural barrier. This I would find demeaning if I was a person that took my self to be more important that the cause. Unlike what I see on this page from the editors on this page. I gave up my name many years ago. Once again you disagree with a judges judgement on the implications of the word feral as it pertains to the Australian Wild bush horse as they are known to the local Brumby supporters and the Term Brumby as a appropriate term for this horse bread, as outlined and linked to on page. Shenqijing (talk) 02:22, 7 June 2020 (UTC) Page reverted vandilisum, page reverted back. Please refer to the ferial descision Above. There has been no information of references deleted and in fact most original citations are not current. Justlettersandnumbers has no contribution to this page. The horse industry in Australia has and is going through a huge readjustment due to the unfair and inhumane treatment of their ex race horses. The Brumby page is not a Feral horse page and should support the titles naritave that being a wild free ranging horse of Australia. Shenqijing (talk) 23:45, 5 June 2020 (UTC) There has also been the introduction and addition of other relivent information by other editors since my changes. My eddits are not vandilisum or discriminatiang or impartial, the blatant belligerent actions of edditorJustlettersandnumbers are showing a bias. Also as I have said that the Chinese medicine world view of health has and still is a unified and integrated system ofhealth that is the study of the enviroment, eco system and the subject, Human animal, and homeostatic valence of these layers. Chinese is very relivent when it comes to the discussion of eco systems, nature and and what is Naturalised and what is feral. Shenqijing (talk) 00:02, 6 June 2020 (UTC) I have included a link on page back to another wiki page called "list of horse breads". The reason that the use of ferial on a federal level has been legislated against if for it to recognise as a horse bread called the Waler that I have also included a wiki Link to on page. There for the Bruby is not included in the control of ferial animals budget from state to state, but their management as a wild horse bread is a state responsibility. But due to recent fires and the pandemic the wild horse numbers have not been counted also new evidence of their ecological effects are being hindered by winter snow and the damage from the fires. Many of the Articles that are presented as factual ecological evidence on page are getting up to a decade old. The only up to date documents seem to do with management planing that would be seen as just going through the motions of internal governmental parks management.I have current international evidence that supports wild horses as of benefit to their habitat and support their eco systems. That we will need to visit. As said in other page talks please refrain from vandalism on this page from a total page revert. The last revert was bias. Shenqijing (talk) 03:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC) As mentioned in the last talk how Traditional Chinese Medicine is relevant is that it is Holistic in nature and recognises the symbiotic nature of the inviromental and subject.The same internale principles that maintain good health internally when understood can be protected to the exterior in more macrocosmic applications, to n this case the eco system and the environment. Also please understand that those that will call the emotional realisim of a subject as romantic or romanticism, you should also note that the WHO recognise psychology as a real thing these days also. Shenqijing (talk) 06:06, 6 June 2020 (UTC) I am new to edits on this platform. The decisions are not impartial and are showing bais, The Federal Court of Australia. File No 1569 of 2018. On 8th may 2020 The ABA Inc. vers the Vict Parks Inc Judge O'Bryanj Section 19 Ruled that the use of the term had undesirable conertations toward the Brumby and could be exploited by Parks Vic, the wild horse was not the best choice as it has a historical background of being introduced so the use of the term Brumby was and is the impartial name for the Australian equine. I also have up-to-date ecolagy reports from colleges arriving expectantly to support the pages now fair naritave of the Australian Brumy and not that from a totally ecologically outdated and bias and demeaning perspective. Shenqijing (talk) 11:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC), I have no confidence in the provision of non bias evidence presented on this page and would like to collaborate with moving this page forward to a more impartial representation of the Australian Brumy. Shenqijing (talk) 12:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC) I have sent a message for Arbitration on this page. Thankyou Shenqijing (talk) 13:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC) The past comments about a federal case does not pertain to the evidence that I have provided, As this evidence I think is sufficient is current and on topic, I would like to remind everyone that the subject of this edit is about the word feral being used as a description for the Brumby, because of thelis the Science resourcing supports the parks Victoria case and not that of a free roaming horse. and because I have stood up for this injustice in name and intention I have been told that the Science and medicine that I study and apply in a clinical and enviromental setting and cappasity has no weight, the idea of the Brumby is a romantic version of the horse, and that I may not be able to speak English and communicate due to a cultural barrier. This I would find demeaning if I was a person that took my self to be more important that the cause. Unlike what I see on this page from the editors on this page. I gave up my name many years ago. Once again you disagree with a judges judgement on the implications of the word feral as it pertains to the Australian Wild bush horse as they are known to the local Brumby supporters and the Term Brumby as a appropriate term for this horse bread, as outlined and linked to on page. And I am so sorry to say this, but God save us if this is the state of our greatest acedemice minds and I can only start to imagine the bullying and trolling that happens behind the scenes with the amount of fake profiles that are weighing in on the game, I am completely open to working on a fear impartial movement forward but will not be bullied by people with the tech know how to make this right but choose to not because of the obvious Milgram effect (Milgram experiment). Do not hit the button please. Shenqijing (talk) 02:33, 7 June 2020 (UTC) So revert back and punishment adding a feral horse link as punishment ok. Shenqijing (talk) 03:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Moving forward for non bias page

Collapsing more of same discussion

Right can we please stop the name calling and move forward to creat a great page with current and non bias content. First we can discuss the naming of the equine. Brumby or Wild Horse or Wild bush horse. Can we please have some suggestions based on the evidence that was supplied and I take it that we will take the lead if intention from the Federal judge even if we don't agree or understand it. I have other current research from other international scientists that I would like to present. I would like to finish by saying that it is not my intention to upset any editors on this page, but I am truly dedicated to presenting a unbias page that is current and factual and please respect that a complete eddit back to the former is not good form. . Thankyou Amituofo 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Shenqijing (talk) 08:22, 7 June 2020 (UTC) I started a discussion at WP:ANI (Disruptive behavior at Brumby), courtesy ping to other editor's involved in the discussion above: Dmol, Sanglorian, Justlettersandnumbers and Hydronium Hydroxide Isaidnoway (talk) 10:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC) Hello thankyou for your information. You need to help me rather than do this. The evidence supports the word feral being changed so why is there no descision. Please explain. The reason that you are finding me to be disruptive is because I am questioning your motives. You need to discuss this without being abusive and condescending, let's talk Shenqijing (talk) 10:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC) No, the reason I find you to be disruptive is because you are edit-warring, editing against consensus, editing the article based on local knowledge, and insisting there is evidence supporting the word feral be changed, due to The Federal Court of Australia. You need to understand and acknowledge that it does not make any difference what the court and/or judge thinks about the word feral being used to describe the subject of this article. This article will be edited in accordance with the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. The Brumby will be defined and described in this article according to how reliable sources define and describe the Brumby. Do you understand that? Forget about the court and the judge. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC) Ok, I was asked to weigh in here and the bottom line is simple. Feral is a biological and scientific reality. Horses were not native fauna of Australia. Thus they are feral. End of that discussion. That is wholly separate from the question of preservation of the Brumbies, which is mostly a political one. The solution forward is a short section, neutral in tone and meticulously cited to mainstream reliable sources, that explains the current political issues. There were similar dramas over at the Mustang article (I am from the American west, by the way, and very familiar with that set of issues, which are somewhat similar to those in Australia), and we have clear precedent that these articles are not a WP:SOAPBOX for either advocates nor a place for opponents to engage in a hatchet job. Shenqijing, you need to stop edit-warring and stop putting up endless walls of text. We understand precisely what you are saying, the problem is that you are A) not understanding how to write quality material for WP (see WP:COMPETENCE, and B) not understanding that this particular article has addressed these issues before, with a great deal of thought and discussion going into it. The status quo ante reflects consensus of editors, and what changes consensus is not endless one-sided discussion repeatedly insisting on the same points being rehashed, it is quality sources and neutral explanations. Montanabw(talk) 17:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC) Thankyou for you time, I understand that the material needs work. If you look at my talkes it is about working together.My edit is a example of a bias the other way and was never ment to be a final publication. There are to many maybes on the page at Keystone enviromental and ecological consequences on page. I am impartial also as I recognise that there needs to be a balance between the life of this horse and the natuural enviroment, however I am not interested in the political nature of the his subject the Brumby.I am not concerned so much with what Wikipedias idea of worldly status quo on the subject, or on its understanding of sentience. What you need to understand is that there is a ferial page and that is correct for the world audience, but this is simply a page about the Australian Brumby so it should be referred to as this. My understanding of horses is rather nave, but my understanding of peoples gread,ignorance and what fuils haitred, criminal and inhumane treatment is extensive. The first place to start on this page it to change all references from feral to Brumby or the lockal terminology that is not bias of Wild bush horse, Because the lockal around those parts say , " That ...ferial bush horse or look there is a Wild bush horse. So take your pick of those two, and then my job is done and I can move on. Then we can have others that can add the new evidence based science that is coming from all over the world that supports agrraeco sciences, for a more suitable world moving onto 2050, Just as something interesting of note Shenqijing (talk) 22:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC) I have look through the history on this page and have also seen that it does have bias in my opinion as but because I hold All life as important and equal I will. So this is not to come from a place of judgement but a pure place of equinimity and empathy rather than political. When it comes to the descision of these issues this is the perfect place to do this in the public. Shenqijing (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC) Amituofo 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Shenqijing (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Feral changed to Brumby

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hello, I have supplied evidence for this page to change the description from feral to Brumby. The name feral is impartial and is demeaning allowing the exploitation and harm to this animal as well as people. I am new to Wiki I am not a sock puppet ( demeaning and will need to change that description also) . Shenqijing (talk) 00:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Please refer back to talk descision. Page reverted back due biased, towards term of feral. Once again as stated the matter that we are discussing is about the use of the word feral to describe human and non human animals. The right intention has been decided on by the judge in this case. And as I will prosume that we are not federal judges of Australia on this platform. The best way to move forward is to follow his discretion of judgment even if we do not understand or comprehend it.

Shenqijing (talk) 00:42, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

To defend also what Chinese medicine has to do with the subject is that it is a holistic or unified way of understanding change. When it came mes to eco systems and enviromental issues and their integrated supportive nature, the same principles that creat international hearth can also be applied to the external or in this case the enviroment. In this case the traditional study of andigonis health is more inductive than a deductive way of application. I will be changing the wording back. All lives matter.🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Shenqijing (talk) 00:49, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

To defend also what Chinese medicine has to do with the subject is that it is a holistic or unified way of understanding change. When it came mes to eco systems and enviromental issues and their integrated supportive nature, the same principles that creat internal hearth can also be applied to the external or in this case the enviroment. In this case the traditional study of indigenous health and medicine is more inductive than a deductive way of application. I will be changing the wording back. All lives matter.🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Shenqijing (talk) 01:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

You are presenting no policy or guideline based arguments, and are simply repeating the largely incomprehensible arguments that have been rejected by other editors. It's time to drop the stick and back slowly away from the FERAL horse carcass, so please go and improve another article or something. FDW777 (talk) 09:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, "feral" is not an insult, it's a term with specific scientific meaning. This discussion has gone on too long and there is an overwhelming consensus on the issue. We're done here Montanabw^(talk) 20:25, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Total agree that this discussion should end now, with feral as the term used. The editor has reams of waffling claims without evidence, and seems fixated on changing that term. But feral is the correct scientific word to use here. As to why he wants to include Chinese medicine in the article, I have no idea. --Dmol (talk) 21:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Feral to Brumby evidence.

ln reference to the last talk. Can you please supply your evidence that feral is the correct Science word for the description of this animal. And in reference to me wishing to add Chinese medicine to the article please direct me to where I have suggested this. Shenqijing (talk) 03:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

The page is very biased toward presentation of feral horse deficiencies instead of pointing to Brumby attributes.

According to the IUCNScientific Guidlines and the UKINC 1979 the Word feral does not appear to be the best fit for this animal. Infact it could be seen to be considered Naturalised as it is self sustainable and self sufficient after being introduced. We need a more open descision please. Shenqijing (talk) 04:01, 26 June 2020 Shenqijing (talk) 04:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Here is a link for the Scientific definitions for organisms, species and race. https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1365-2664.2000.00538.x

Shenqijing (talk) 05:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Please stop wasting everyone's time here. HiLo48 (talk) 05:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@Shenqijing: (With apologies to everyone else who is sick of it already) I'm going to feed your desire to talk about righting a great wrong just once. I've read the document you refer to above, "The impacts of non‐native species on UK biodiversity and the effectiveness of control", and I'll quote to you the sentence from it that defines "feral":

‘Feral’ is an organism (or its descendants) that has been kept in domestication, captivity (animals) or cultivation (plants) but which, following escape or release, now lives in the wild state. However, populations are not necessarily self‐maintaining.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that (1) horses are not native to Australia; (2) Australian horses were originally introduced by humans and "kept in domestication"; (3) brumbies either escaped or were released and now live in the wild state.

Please accept that the very document you adduce as evidence does not support your position that "the Word feral does not appear to be the best fit for this animal". It is certainly true that 'naturalised' would be an alternative according to the document's authors, but a self-sustaining population fits both definitions, and the editors here have reached a consensus to use "feral", which covers both self-sustaining and non-self-sustaining populations.

I have raised my objection to your continued tendentious commentary solely by way of a warning, and as an attempt to dissuade you from further pursuit of the issue. I do not consider myself involved in this article, and I will feel free to apply sanctions to you should you continue on this path. I hope that you draw a line under this and find another topic where you can make a productive contribution. --RexxS (talk) 16:00, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Thankyou for your reply so what about the other definition of Naturalised. RexxS ?. Shenqijing (talk) 16:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Once again thank you for your consideration and please be advised that from my understanding Wiki is a public resource so I like many have the right to open a robust debate. You still have not address the fact that a Australian federal judge has in his wisdom decided that feral may have bias. So what is your experience with key stone and Climax species when it pertains to self sustainable and self limiting process and outcomes to conclude that feral is a better fit that Naturalised. As these definitions are not just about animals,breads but also about race ?.

 Shenqijing (talk) 16:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked from editing this talk page and the article. --RexxS (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Colts

I just want to pop a note here that the word "colt", meaning a young male horse, is so commonly misused to refer to foals that its use must be handled carefully. It was so common that in works from 50-100 years ago, one sees biologically impossible phrasing like "she was a filly colt." (Arrgh) In etymology, I guess we have to do what we have to do, but the use of the male form of a noun to describe the generic animal is problematic, though I realize that many non-English languages have gendered nouns and so that complicates things further. But for all of the above reasons, I put the word "colt" in quotes in the history/etymology section to make it clear that it was the word's immediate translation, no more and no less. Apparently, we don't have a source for whether the word was intended to be a gendered noun but referring to all young horses of either sex or if it was deliberately intended to apply only to young male horses. Montanabw^(talk) 17:00, 14 September 2020 (UTC)