Talk:Bro Gwened

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Name

Hm... It seems that the most common name of the place is the partial French Vannetais, but that's the demonym of Vannes and appropriately directs to the city. (English writers usually don't bother with the "pays".) Similarly, "Gwened" is popular but the primary topic there is definitely the Breton name for Vannes. Keep it here as a natural dab? or just follow the Breton practice and use their names to split the topic (Bro Ereg for the old realm and Bro Wened for the outdated county)? — $Llywelyn II$ 12:50, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Bro Gwened was an early medieval principality". I have never read anybody who treats of a medieval principality named Bro Gwened. Broërech, of course. The Vannetais was certainly a county under the Franks. But Bro Gwened? This page uses a modern term for an early medieval thing. Srnec (talk) 13:15, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Eh... I feel your discomfort but, no, there's nothing "of course" about using "Broërech". You can add as many variant spellings to the Ngram or Scholar searches as you like, but the WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME of these places has been Gwened or Vannetais when it's not simply Vannes. If you've got some good offline or period sources to throw into the mix, it'll be good to hear more about those, but the things I've seen that don't use "Vannetais" (like Baring-Gould) use "Gwened" (like the Celtic Culture entry). It seems like the modern Breton use for the modern city is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC there, so I just used "Bro" as the WP:NATURAL disambiguation and kept the form "Gwened" as closer to the local dialect and less confusing to the English users.

Now, that said, I've just found out there's some (very unloved and hard-to-notice) pages on the "County" and "Count of Vannes". That's probably the best home for any of the material I've just added from the period of the duchy onwards and, if so, the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Bro Gwened and Bro-Wened.

That doesn't mean we should just make up a new English usage by creating an otherwise unknown "Broërech", though of course you may have English-language sources neither I nor Google know about (No, neither French nor Breton ones count at all)... but it does mean we should think about the best way to dab our treatment of the early medieval realm. "Count" may have been a formal title as early as the Warochs, but it seems to carry a lot of anachronistic baggage. Do you think it's best to just move everything to County of Vannes? or at a dabbed title like Vannetais or Gwened (petty kingdom)? or treat it at History of Vannes? —

Llywelyn II

10:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: I haven't seen it called this elsewhere and it link[ed] to the wrong page, but fwiw the Kingdom of Brittany article talks about its precursors including a "Kingdom of Vannetais". (On the other hand, they seem to treat it as something different from the Breton states and even from "Broerec". Darioritum itself held aloof from the first Waroch, but every source I've seen certainly uses "Vannetais" to describe the Breton chiefs in the area after its annexation. I think the editors over there got confused and used two names for the state centered on Vannes and forgot to mention Cornouaille.) —

Llywelyn II

10:43, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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