Talk:British bulldog (game)

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The Law of the Playground

I've moved the following statement from the main article to the talk page. It appears not to be encyclopedic.

Curiously, The Law of the Playground refuses to put up an entry on the subject.

Lbbzman 15:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Article Quality

This entire article is really bad. There's no references and some really non-encyclopaedic content and tone. I've removed the absolute worst, and I'm going to tag it as unreferenced. I'm not even sure if this article is worth saving. Anyone feel like taking it on? Wibbble 03:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a refference to a UK Scouting Association website detailing one version of the rules. Unfortunately, this is about the best reference I can find. Being an informal game played by children, there are obviously few references that come from any kind of trusted source. I can personally vouch for the accuracy of the rules as described here, but that's obviously not worth very much. cchooper 00:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article would benefit from a reading of Children's Games in Street and Playground (Iona and Peter Opie, 1969) pp 138-142, noting especially their description of it as a street game. The article curretly switches to calling the game Bullrush, without explanation. --NebY (talk) 10:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just as an aside, this game is played, with the name of British Bulldog, by American Boy Scouts. Someone with an eye to altering the article may wish to bear this in mind.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10366085 just stopping by wondering why New Zealand isn't mentioned in this. it originated in New Zealand anyway. the politically correct stole it and renamed it British bulldog. do you even know why its called bull rush? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.154.45.216 (talk) 13:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bullrush variation

I grew up in New Zealand and I can tell you Bullrush is definately what this game is called there, I've never heard of it being called Bulldogs before until reading this article. Bullrush is quite a brutal game and the best way to describe it is a game of rugby, without the ball, and as many people you can fit into a field, rushing at each other from either side trying to make it across to the enemy base. It was banned from schools in the early 80's after children took to fields in masses for games. I remember when it was banned quite clearly, I was in primary school at the time. There was a game between my school and another, people turned up with all kinds of underhanded tactics and more than one person left with torn clothing and broken limbs. It took every teacher in the school to break up the field fights that broke out during the game. I was 10 years old at the time, but I'd rather describe it as a massive outdoor brawl. I don't know where else you would find a reference for this, however. --90.193.106.45 (talk) 16:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I did find some citations to confirm the banning of Bullrush in New Zealand schools. They weren't hard to find, there are literally hundreds of citations out there.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4460035a6662.html citation to confirm banning in New Zealand schools.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10366085 citation from Readers' Views - complaints about bullrush being banned.
http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2006/10/18/features/feature37.txt citation from the Sun Chronicle Times - Ken from New Zealand complains about Bullrush being banned from schools and suggests it to be supervised and indoors.
http://kitchenpt.com/2007/11/ Bradley Simpson - complains about banning bullrush "I guess the next step now is to wrap every kid up in cotton wool and have no interaction with anyone all day ‘just in case’…"
http://darrenrickard.blogspot.com/2008/06/feminist-socialists-disease-with-cure.html Official citation from the Political Animal confirming nationwide banning.

--90.193.106.45 (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to point out that this article talks mostly about British Bulldogs, which is very different to the rules of Bullrush in New Zealand, so I'm not sure that the reference at the top saying British Bulldog was banned in schools is entirely well placed. If it's going to say that, then the title and overview should incorporate the rules for Bullrush and not just British Bulldogs, as the latter is not banned on a national scale in the UK, only in individual schools if they choose to. As a suggestion I think the Bullrush variation should be added to the article and read "Bullrush is an energetic game whereby a group of individuals endeavour to rush from one line to another across an open space without being tackled to the ground by participants who have previously been so tackled. The rush from one line to the other continues with the direction being reversed on each rush. The winner of the game is the single individual who manages to be the last person not so tackled. Even so the winner is required to repeat the rush in the hope that he/she too will be brought to the ground. Each time a person loses the rush, they have to join all the other losers in the middle of the open space and join in the tackling activity." --90.193.106.45 (talk) 16:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In southeastern Pennsylvania, from around 1980-90 this game was called "British Bulldog." I did encounter it under the name "Shark." After reviewing the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Bulldogs_(game), I can see that the game I played as a child was most likely a variant of a tag game played on foot, which leads me to think the "Sharks and Minnows" article could be folded into the British-Bulldog article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.83.170 (talk) 03:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article quality deteriorating further

This is turning into a repository for reminiscences of schooldays and fine details of variant names and rules in a particular playground one year. Let's all remember that children continually vary the names and rules of their games and any encyclopedia, even one as wonderful as Wikipedia, will become unreadable if it tries to capture every local detail and every fond memory. Can we have a verifiable article that sums up the essentials of the game and the issues surrounding it? NebY (talk) 00:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect title

The article should be called British Bulldog, and not British Bulldogs. Then the introduction could say, "British bulldog (game)... British bulldog (often the plural British bulldogs, also Bulldog, Bulldogs, Bullies or Bullrush)".
The game is originally British (the clue is in the name): even in the "references" section of the article, the exterior links refer to "British Bulldog". The reason I mention the fact that the game is British is simply that in Britain, it is called British Bulldog. If that is what the game is called in Britain (I repeat, where the game originated), then British Bulldog is what the predominant, primary, uppermost name in the article should be. Everybody in Britain calls the game British Bulldog. If further evidence were needed, Google's auto-suggestion has seemingly got it locked in: http://i52.tinypic.com/978qh1.jpg - note that "bulldogs" is not offered. I'm not a member here, and do not wish to be. Subsequently could somebody please change the title? 86.176.127.84 (talk) 11:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was always just called "Bulldog" in Britain. Never used the name "British Bulldog", no really any need to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.68.127 (talk) 01:08, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We always called it "British Bulldog" at our school, "Bulldog" for short maybe, but never "(British) Bulldogs". That was around 35 years ago, also in Britain. Ah memories :) 178.25.29.178 (talk) 21:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In Canada in the 1950s, the game was called "British Bulldog"; the rules varied from what is recorded in 2 ways (1) when the bulldogs called "British Bulldog", all players had to run immediately - none could simply stay in the "home" strip (2) the bulldogs had to catch hold of a runner and tap him 3 times on the back while saying "One, two three British Bulldog" in order to effect a capture. Lawrence — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.230.35 (talk) 05:44, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Y I have moved the page to British Bulldog (game), having checked the OED and the Opies' format for this. Andrew D. (talk) 16:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After weeks of searching the oldest source i could find is from Canada, January 1941. It predates the sources from UK and the US. If there are older sources, let me know.

Variation to game

I remember playing this with a tennis ball. It was called brandings with the 'it' in the middle using a tennis ball to 'brand' a runner who was then out of that game. A variation involved 'it' chasing the other children round the playground. And no, i don't have any citations Coolabahapple (talk) 04:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Possible older version(s)

There might be an earlier version of British Bulldog called Action, Fox and Dowdy, Bacca, Baccare, and/or War. I came across the descriptions below in some old slang dictionaries. It sounds similar but I can't find any positive evidence that they are linked.

A game in which a number of boys start from one end of the cloisters and run to the other, trying to avoid being captured en route by others who seek to intercept them. The game was also called Fox and Dowdy. These were the names in use twenty-five years ago. To-day the same game is called Bacca, because the prisoners must be held long enough for the captor to say, "one, two three, caught, tobacco!"
— John Stephen Farmer, From "Action" in The Public School Word-Book (1900) archive.org

War. A boy's game. The players, at the call 'Baccare' of their leader, leave sanctuary, and attempt to cross a certain space to another sanctuary. The space is guarded by a boy who may make as many prisoners as he can, and these must mount guard with him. The guard has various tricks to induce the leader, or one of the party, to give the starting word: e.g. [to the question] 'What does your father smoke?' an unwary boy would reply 'Bacca,' and perhaps get one of his party caught.
— Joseph Wright, From "Baccare" in The English Dialect Dictionary (1898) archive.org

Fox and chickens, a children's game; (2) —and dowdy (or -a'-dowdy), a boys' game similar to 'King Caesar'; (3) —and geese, {4} —and hounds, a children's game; [...] (1) Ess. A singing game beginning: (The Den) Who's going round my dunny wall tonight? (Fox) Only little Jacky-Lingo, Flk-Lore Rec. (1880) III. pt. ii. 170. (2) War. Across a lane, or other space with well-defined side boundaries, two lines are drawn about 10 or 15 yards apart. In the middle of the space one boy is placed. The others stand on one of the boundary lines so drawn. They have to run together across the space and endeavour to gain the other boundary line. The boy in the space, if he catches and holds one of the runners while repeating the words 'Fox a' dowdy—catch a candle,' retains his captive in the space, who then assists in capturing others as they run at intervals from boundary to boundary until all arc caught. (3) Dur. A gathering of children would select a fox and a goose... The leader of the geese would step forward, and address the fox... The geese then would 'fly' to reach the goal before the fox; the first goose caught joined the fox, changing sides, until all the geese were captured, Flk-Lore Jrn. (1884) II. 158. Der. A den is chalked out or marked out for the fox. A larger den, opposite to this, is marked out for the geese. A boy or girl represents the fox and a number of others the geese. Then the fox shouts, 'Geese, geese, gannio,' and the geese answer 'Fox, fox, fannio.' Then the fox says, 'How many geese have you to-day?' The geese reply, 'More than you can catch and carry away.' Then the geese run out of the den and the fox tries to catch them. He puts as many as he catches into his den, Gomme Games (1894) I. 141.
— Joseph Wright, From "Fox" in The English Dialect Dictionary (1898) archive.org

If anyone else can find more information or a direct link it might be worth adding to the article. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:22, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These are 19th century sources. Are the any other sources frome the 18th century? It seems that some of the games root in Germany, for example Sheep, sheep, come home!. It's called Schafe, schafe, kommt heraus! or Wolf und Schafe in Germany and includes exactly the same dialogue.

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Origin?

I cannot find any description of the game before the end of 19th century. It seems the roots lie in Germany. Friedrich Ludwig Jahn and his "Turnbewegung" could be the key. In 1816 he released a book called "Die deutsche Turnkunst". It was very popular outside Germany. Many "Turners" moved to the U.S. in the 19th century and continued the "Gymnast movement" until the early 20th century. Many games in English books contain children games similar to the games from German books that appeared between 1777 and 1796. Some of the Bulldog variants are called "Who Is Afraid of the Bogeyman?" that has been described in 1796 by Johann Christoph Friedrich GutsMuths.

Ghost in the Graveyard

This is called Hexenspiel in Germany (The Witch Game), that was already described in 1869. Some alternative names are The Evil Beast or The Evil Man.

Hat eins geschlagen, kommt noch nicht. (one o' clock)
Hat zwei geschlagen, kommt noch nicht, (two o' clock)
Hat drei geschlagen, kommt noch nicht, (three o' clock)

...and so on. The players are counting until the witch jumps out of the hiding spot and tries to catch them.

These are not really new games. Black Tom, Pom-Pom-Pullaway and related games were well-known in Germany hundred years before they appeared in English books (here it's called Wer hat Angst vorm Schwarzen Mann?).

Even the game descriptions are almost identical. My assumption is that German settlers brought them into the New World.

British Bulldog

That game name doesn't appear anywhere in 18th or 19th century books. I'm not sure why this was chosen as a lemma. It seems to be a derivative. There are much older games and game names. The article looks chaotic anyway. Some games are mixed with others (Fox and Goose is surely not the same game as Rushing Bases/King Cæsar etc.).

Btw: The term British Bulldog for a game doesn't appear before 1949. I took my time to search all the online books. Red Rover appears much earlier. So the first sentence in this atricle is already wrong or misleading.

The history shows that this was an article only for the game British Bulldog until in 2014 people started to rape this thing into pieces. What a trash can. No wonder that it looks like an accident.

Clean up

IMO there are only two options.

1.) Moving this page to a new lemma (umbrella term: Games of chase, which appears in several education books). All of the games in this article are Goal-based chasing games.
2.) Reverting the article to its original version (an article about British Bulldog without the other games).

UK sources

There must be some sources if British Bulldog originated in the UK. I expected an evolutionary process, maybe from King Cæsar to British Bulldog. Some kind of "Tackling Cæsar". But i couldn't find anything. British Bulldog appears in the 1940s in the regular UK news press and later in some UK books. But no history or pre-history has been found in any UK publication.

It seems that the game, or in this case the name, is more "British" in a British Empire sense, not "British" in the UK sense. It could be from Canada (with some earlier roots in the U.S. gymnastics movement), which always was my first guess.

The Boy's Own Paper would probably be the last station of research (or are there any autobiographies of popular rugby players?). It seems that the UK boys played Cricket and a game called "Touch" (maybe Touch football). That's what they used for exercises. The term "tackle" in the Boy's paper seems more connected to sport fishing and tales about American football. --188.108.124.169 (talk) 10:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]