Talk:Bratislava/Archive 5

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Hungarian and German name

Filelakeshoe, I see no reason why these two names are included into first sentence of this articles. These are foreign names, not spoken by inhabitants of this city, not used in modern English, not official, and thus not important in any way. Furthermore, these are names used by former countries that oppressed Slovaks and I see no other reason why somebody would place these names there instead to "remind Slovaks about their former slavery". Also, in your article version, these names are first info that stick the eyes of the readers, i.e. readers would first read how name of this city is named in German and Hungarian and only after that that Bratislava "is the capital of Slovakia". I say that info that Bratislava is the capital of Slovakia is much more important than info how this city is named in some other languages. Also, if you say that these names should be there because these names where used by former countries that ruled over this city I can give you very good examples of how this issue is covered in some other articles: New York City was ruled by British Empire, but first sentence of this article does not have name in British English, Moscow was ruled by Tatars, but first sentence of this article does not have name in Tatar language, Bejing was ruled by Manchy dinasty, but first sentence of this article does not have name in Manchu language, etc, etc. Why Bratislava should be a different case? PANONIAN 21:30, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

"not spoken by inhabitants of this city"--Tell it to the minorities of the city. Fakirbakir (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Minorities? 16,541 Hungarians and 1,200 Germans? (And most members of these two groups are probably speaking Slovak by now). There are much more minorities in 3 World cities that I mentioned, but there are no minority names in their first sentences. So, I will reapeat the question: why Bratislava should be a different case? PANONIAN 22:06, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Filelakeshoe

Prague ( /ˈprɑːɡ/; Czech: Praha pronounced [ˈpraɦa] ( listen)) is the capital and largest city of the Czech Republic and fourteenth largest city in the European Union.[5

Warsaw (Polish: Warszawa [varˈʂava] ( listen); see also other names) is the capital and largest city of Poland.

Belgrade ( /ˈbɛlɡreɪd/; Serbian: Београд / Beograd; [beǒɡrad] ( listen); names in other languages) is the capital and largest city of Serbia

Budapest Budapest ( /ˈbuːdəpɛst/, /ˈbuːdəpɛʃt/ or /ˈbʊdəpɛst/; Hungarian pronunciation: [ˈbudɒpɛʃt] ( listen); names in other languages) is the capital and the largest city of Hungary

Riga (Latvian: Rīga, pronounced [riːɡa] ( listen)) is the capital and largest city of Latvia.

Sarajevo (Cyrillic: Сарајево) (pronounced [sǎrajɛʋɔ]) is the capital and largest city of Bosnia and Herzegovina, with an estimated population of over 311,161 people within its administrative limits.

Sofia (Bulgarian: София, pronounced [ˈsɔfijɐ] ( listen)) is the capital and largest city of Bulgaria and the 15th largest city in the European Union with a population of 1.2 million people.[

I agree: London has a quarter of a million Indian born residents but that article does not start with a Hindi or other non-English spelling. It makes even less sense here to include foreign names, both as the communities are far smaller and as it is in both English and Slovak so two languages are dealt with.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 00:27, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Those examples do not apply here ,however, there are similar examples in Central Europe that may be worth following : Gdańsk ,Szczecin, Wrocław. Also, the lead has been stable for many years and there is no reason to change it. As for "remind Slovaks about their former slavery", it is a rather inflammatory statement to make, and considering that this talk page is frequently read by Hungarian users as well, they can take it as a personal affront. Furthermore, I suggest to PANONIAN is to refrain from edit warring on including alternative names with articles related to Central Europe for the following reasons: he is subject to an arbitration case related to Serbian history [1] and in case he should appeal it, edit warring over alternative names, and making inflammatory statements will not leave him a chance for success there.--Nmate (talk) 08:18, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Nmate, I suggest that you pull back these false accusations for "revert warring" against me. I only had one single original edit in several articles and users who reverted my edits should be warned for edit warring, not myself, since I did not reverted these articles after their revert. Also, I did not said anything inflammatory - expressing my own opinion about inflammatory nature of inclusion of foreign names into this article is not "inflammatory statement"; it is just one important issue that one should have in mind when dealing with this subject. You will not find my single statement anywhere that aimed to insult members of any ethnicity. PANONIAN 12:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

We should not forget that Bratislava is a multicultural city it has German, Slovak and Hungarian historical cultural heritages. London is bad example, London was not capital of a "Hindi sultanate" as opposed to Bratislava (it was capital of Kingdom of Hungary in the past). Fakirbakir (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Fakirbakir, history of Bratislava belongs to History section--Omen1229 (talk) 08:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with PANONIAN. Germans do not use these names for modern Bratislava, only Hungarians and this is the English wikipedia, right? German and Hungarian names are mentioned in the Names section, so please delete these repetitive information.--Omen1229 (talk) 08:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

What about Gdańsk ,Szczecin, and Wrocław? --Nmate (talk) 08:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

And what about Budapest, Prague, Warsaw...?--Omen1229 (talk) 09:01, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit the "names" section gives us information enough about names of the city in the past. Actually Pressburg was triplicated. Fakirbakir (talk) 09:02, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

As for "Budapest, Prague, Warsaw", it is not an apple to apple comparsion, which is very obvious.--Nmate (talk) 09:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would be better to provide these name variants in the lead, as well. These are not "foreign" names: for example, according to the 2011 Slovak Census, there are more than 500,000 Slovak citizens whose mother tongue is Hungarian. Bratislava is their capital, as well. Moreover, there are hundreds of thousand English works (books, articles, etc.) which use these name variants of the town (e.g., in a historical context) [2][3]. Providing these names would help those who came to this article by following Pressburg or Pozsony links/searches to quickly see that it is the very same town. Furthermore, reliable sources, such as the Encyclopedia Britannica, also give both of these additional variants (Pressburg, Pozsony) in their Bratislava articles [4][5][6][7][8]. The London example is totally misleading, since most of those Slovak citizens who have other mother tongues than Slovak are not immigrants, they were born in Slovakia. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 09:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

PS: I think that many can find PANONIAN's sentence "I see no other reason why somebody would place these names there instead to "remind Slovaks about their former slavery"" offensive and xenophobic. Following such a twisted logic, one might say that those Slovak (or Serb or Romanian, etc.) citizens, whose mother tongue is not Slovak (or Serb or Romanian, etc.) are "slaves" in their countries. I fully disagree with this and find such comments disruptive. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 09:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I do not understand your POV. Each state has a minorities and Slovakia has probably 50 ethnic groups. So in the lead will be 50 language variants? By the way Bratislava has 16,541 Hungarians > 3,57% population.--Omen1229 (talk) 10:20, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

WTF?! I'm sorry to say this to you Panonian, but obviously you're not only clueless, but paranoid as well. First of all I WAS born in Bratislava, I AM a resident of Bratislava and I DO speak Hungarian (obviously I'd never call it anything else but Pozsony in Hungarian). The only reason Germans usually say "Bratislava" is because they don't know its original name (Preßburg) and that's what they're being told by Slovaks anyway. But let me tell you something: have you EVER traveled to Vienna from Bratislava (without using the highway)? Well, I did, and guess what have I found there? "Preßburger Reichstraße" in almost ALL the villages I went through all the way to Schwechat. I think that that tells a LOT about the German usage of Pressburg/Preßburg (or lack thereof).

As for the cluelessness you obviously don't know and don't WANT TO know the importance the city has played in Hungary's history (e.g. it was Hungary's capital for centuries, the parliament seated here, Kossuth and Széchenyi have presented all of their arguments in here, Hungarian kings were crowned here for centuries, this was the place where the Hungarian elite has assured Maria Theresa of its support etcetc.). Thus (weren't for the minority present there) the Hungarian name should be included for historical reasons as well. But like I said there's a considerable Hungarian minority STILL living there (in fact I know from personal experience that you should NEVER talk rude to anybody in Hungarian, because chances are that the person's either Hungarian or speaks Hungarian well enough to understand you), so the Hungarian name's there to stay (along with the German one). And since I'm actually member of that minority, I have to refuse any arguments that try to dismiss the presence of those minorities.

As for your inflammatory statement (Furthermore, these are names used by former countries that oppressed Slovaks and I see no other reason why somebody would place these names there instead to "remind Slovaks about their former slavery") I don't think that it needs any further comment (even if it meant to be ironic or something, because it's tasteless even for that) as the others have already said everything that needed to be told about it.

Also JohnBlackburne please do not compare London to Bratislava in this manner. Hungarians and Germans of Bratislava constitute an indigenous population of the city/Slovakia and NOT immigrants (as ALL the Slovak nationalists assert). In my case even my grandmother was born in Bratislava (and lived there almost her entire life) and my great-grandfather (her father) was born in Jelka (a village now in Slovakia, but the time of his birth was in Hungary), but spent most of his life in Bratislava too. So arguing with Indians, Arabs and whatnot would be akin to arguing that e.g. the Scots or Welsh are immigrants in Britain (and I'm sure that they'd be pissed as hell of such assertion). Hence please refrain from comparing apples to oranges.

@Omen1229: I'm sorry to disappoint you, but in Wikipedia there's no language law and other such nuisance meant to make the minorities' (especially Hungarians') lives miserable. Hence the "20% rule" definitely does NOT apply. So arguing that Hungarian/German name should NOT be added because they constitute "only" 1,2,3,4 etc. percent of the total population is kinda pointless.

Also let me provide a brief history lesson for the "uninitiated" ones: the city of Pressburg had a Hungarian AND German (and Jewish, as they constituted mostly the urban population) dominance, Slovaks have constituted a minority there. After 1920 however its population has been radically altered by displacement of original Hungarian population (a lot of which have sought refuge in Hungary and lived in train wagons around the major train stations of Budapest for years), mass immigration of Czech government officers (and generally intelligentsia meant do displace the former Hungarian one) and statistical chicanery at censuses. Thus the Hungarian in Bratislava have ceased to have minority rights by the 1930s. An even more radical ethnic cleansing took place after WWII, when the German population (like I said mostly indigenous population, not immigrants as Slovak nationalists assert) has been expulsed by the Beneš decrees and the Hungarian population has either fell victim of a genocide (some mass graves have been filled in Petržalka with Hungarians AFTER the war), was deported to the Sudetenland in cattle wagons (usually the ones that were previously used to deport first the Jews, then the Germans) or was forcible deported to Hungary during the "population exchange". This has left Bratislava with a decreased number of Hungarians to begin with, who has been further assimilated e.g. by having the number of their schools reduced, voluntary assimilation etc. Yet there are STILL some Hungarians (and Germans) present in Bratislava, who constitute the most notable minorities of the city. -- CoolKoon (talk) 11:26, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice essay, but history of Bratislava belongs to History section and your original research belongs to your diary.--Omen1229 (talk) 12:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I know that it'd be MUCH more comforting for you if the stuff I've written above would be "original research", but I have LOADS of sources to back every single of those statements. And believe me, I WILL do so when I get down to adding content for the appropriate section at the Slovakization article, so you'll get to check all of them. This however is a talk page, hence I don't have to source everything I say.

Also, thanks for reminding me to check out the "History of Bratislava" article and the appropriate section in this article. I'll surely do that in the foreseeable future as well. -- CoolKoon (talk) 18:46, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Firstly sorry for taking so long to comment here - I was away for a lot longer than I expected last night. The reason, for example, "Kassa" and "Pressburg" are relevant enough to go in the lede is because they were used by English sources in the relatively near past. Before WW1, Hungarian names for cities now in Slovakia were the expected form in English. So many English sources use these names, and the point of introducing them straightaway is to inform the reader who might have read about "Kassa" in a pre-Trianon source (or indeed the treaty of Trianon itself) that this is the same city as "Košice". It's nothing to do with there being Hungarians in Slovakia (so comparison to "the Hindi name for London" misses the point), it's to do with the Hungarian names being used in English sources. Many city articles also mention Latin names in the lede for the same reason.

I do understand however that WP:NCGN and WP:LEAD advise to "avoid clutter", therefore I agree for example that listing every official name of Novi Sad in the lede sentence is overload, and there might be a case to reduce the amount of names in the Bratislava article too - but there should be a clear link to a lower section, "other names". But I really think the Hungarian name should be given in Slovak city articles. Arguments about "reminding Slovaks of slavery" are moot, we're trying to write an encyclopedia here, if people get offended by history that isn't our problem.

As for Bratislava, I was skeptical about whether "Pozsony" was used in English, but Koertefa showed me I was rather mistaken. Having thought about this more I don't see a problem with an "other names" link like in Belgrade/Budapest examples given above, and still mentioning that it was formerly known as Pressburg (I get the feeling that should be spelled with ss rather than ß) in English in the 3rd paragraph as now. - filelakeshoe 15:03, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to congratulate User:PANONIAN to stirring up tensions: you were so successful in sowing the wind (and reaping the whirlwind) that the article's been protected for 2 days (see this ANI entry for details). Was this your goal or something? -- CoolKoon (talk) 18:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Filelakeshoe, for finally inserting a bit of sense into this incredibly stupid and misdirected discussion. Yet another instance of this lame old "who gets their favourite name mentioned in a lead" game. Sigh. To express Filelakeshoe's point in somewhat stronger terms: everybody in the previous debate above has been dead wrong, on both sides, because you have all been debating based on a wrong-headed premise.

Get this into your heads: Whether or not to mention a name in the lead has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with the existence of minorities, or the role of this or that ethnicity in the history of a place. There is only one single criterion that really counts for this question: whether a name has had currency in English. Nothing else. Everybody who has been evaluating this proposal with arguments about the historical importance of this or that ethnicity for the city, or the importance of the city for this or that ethnicity: please go away and bang your heads against a brick wall or something, until you have managed to disabuse yourselves of this bizarre notion that mentioning – or not mentioning – a name variant in an article lead should be used as a symbolic badge of recognition in favour of some ethnicity or other. </rant> Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, guess what, you're lucky that you haven't been born a few additional hundred km to the east. Otherwise you'd probably have a somewhat different view on this whole issue :P Anyway like I said it was PANONIAN's post that set the tone for the rest of the discussion (e.g. it's different to ask people to talk about "those big-nosed bastards who control the world"/"goddamn retarded niggas who'll eat us out of our money" than to have them talk about "problems of globalization"/"social aspects of racism". I'm afraid that the first case has happened here, which's sad, I admit. But what now? Pozsony is featured in English sources just like Bratislava or Pressburg, so I think that none of them should be removed. In short, I agree with you. -- CoolKoon (talk) 19:21, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Jesus Christ, that was one major tl;dr there. Relevancy to the discussion was next to none, yet I saw there more OR than in any other article ever. Also, everytime someone uses 1910 consensus as reference to his claim, god kills a kitten.

What Fut.Perf. said is true so if we look at books.google.com (because I am bloody lazy to check anything else) Pozsony will get 193,000 results [9], Pressburg 437,000 [10] and Bratislava 3,300,000 [11]. Pressburg and Poszony thus make cca 630,000 references, so give or take 20 percent of those three combined. Hence they are significantly used, they should stay. EllsworthSK (talk) 20:59, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

"Whether or not to mention a name in the lead has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with the existence of minorities, or the role of this or that ethnicity in the history of a place. There is only one single criterion that really counts for this question: whether a name has had currency in English. Nothing else." Istanbul at books.google.com will get 9,440,000 results[12], Constantinople 15,400,000[13] and I see only one name in the lead.--Omen1229 (talk) 10:02, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I see three. Byzantium and Constantinople are both explained, in prose, in the 2nd paragraph - as "Pressburg" is in the current version of this article. - filelakeshoe 10:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Several reliable English encyclopedias mention these variants immediately after Bratislava [14][15][16][17][18][19], hence, the easiest solution is to keep the lead as it was before the whole issue [20]. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 10:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I used your references for "Istanbul Constantinople" [21] [22] [23] [24]. At books.google.com "Istanbul Constantinople encyclopedia" will get 1,030,000 results[25] and "Bratislava Pozsony Pressburg encyclopedia" will get 497 results[26]. --Omen1229 (talk) 11:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, and what's your point? That if the no. of results for Pozsony and Pressburg are below X, they are unnecessary? Because if not, how about just agreeing to a consensus that the Hungarian and former English/German name should stay? -- CoolKoon (talk) 12:04, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Who talk about "unnecessary names"? You do not understand what Future Perfect at Sunrise wrote[27]? Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here. We talk about position the names in article and Istanbul is good example for this article. And what's your point?--Omen1229 (talk) 12:46, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

My point? My point is that neither Pozsony nor Pressburg should be removed from the lead and I also think that Istanbul is a VERY bad idea, since after the Ottomans' conquest there ceased to be a continuity between the Byzantine Empire and the Ottoman Empire (<offtopic>on a side note I think that the Turks have regretted this lack of legitimation from Western POV and thus every now and then try to make some efforts to try to get "back" into the "geopolitical" mainstream, hence the desire for the EU membership, NATO membership etc. </offtopic>). On the other hand I think that the Kaliningrad article would be a MUCH better example, especially since its fate is much closer to that of Bratislava too. Still, like I said earlier "sue me" (i.e. feel free to report me at ANI like Bizovne did) if you disagree with me. -- CoolKoon (talk) 16:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Kaliningrad article has wrong structure and dubious neutrality(The site now occupied by Kaliningrad, occupied?), the name Königsberg is duplicated in the lead and does not contain section - Etymology as Bratislava or Istanbul. --Omen1229 (talk) 05:40, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "Kaliningrad article has wrong structure" (according to what?) "and dubious neutrality"? Having an etymology section is not obligatory (BTW, the "Etymology" section of this article is also more like a collection of names). I do not see heated discussions about the neutrality of the Kaliningrad article on its Talkpage, either; and the phrase "the site now occupied by" is neutral, it does not imply an ethical judgement (see how it is used in other contexts [28]). Nevertheless, there are several other examples which are all better than Istanbul, such as Târgu Mureş, Deva, Miercurea Ciuc, Trieste, Gdańsk, Poznan, Bydgoszcz, Nice, Wroclaw, Strasbourg, etc., etc., KœrteFa {ταλκ} 06:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

And there are also several other examples: London, Delhi, Riga, Vilnius, Tallinn, Warsaw, Baku, Belgrade, Zagreb, Sarajevo, Vatican City, Budapest, etc., etc. --Omen1229 (talk) 07:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Do any of your recent examples have alternative names which are (in appropriate contexts) widely used by reliable English sources, like "Pressburg" [29] and "Pozsony" [30] for "Bratislava"; or "Königsberg" [31] for "Kaliningrad"; or "Breslau" [32] for "Wrocław"; or "Nizza" [33] for "Nice"; or "Marosvásárhely" [34] for "Târgu Mureș", etc.? KœrteFa {ταλκ} 08:21, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

"Istanbul Constantinople encyclopedia" will get 1,030,000 results[35] and "Bratislava Pozsony Pressburg encyclopedia" will get 497 results[36], Warschau[37] for Warsaw, Wilna[38] for Vilnius, Cité du Vatican[39] for Vatican City, Londres[40], Londen[41], Londinium[42], Llundain[43] for London etc. etc., so what is your point?.--Omen1229 (talk) 08:57, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Omen, what is your point? You're not telling us what these inane google hit stats are meant to demonstrate. And the Istanbul article DOES mention the name Constantinople (and Byzantium) in the lede. - filelakeshoe 09:20, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Now these stats are inane? My point is that names in other languages belong to Etymology section or here without duplicated / triplicated info. Istanbul - yes, in the 2nd paragraph - as "Pressburg" is in the current version of this article. And what is your point?--Omen1229 (talk) 09:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You're missing the point again. Most of the cities you've cited above have either had a homogenous native population for centuries (i.e. its original population hasn't been expelled, displaced, deported, killed, scared off, "resettled" etc. as in case of Bratislava, Kaliningrad etc.) or they have no significant minorities either. On the other hand the examples cited by Koertefa mention cities which were under a (linguistically) different rule (some even for centuries) and thus a LOT of the English sources refer to them by another name as the one used today. Hence Koertefa's list is MUCH better. Also, please keep in mind that Bratislava was basically RENAMED in 1920, because the name used today didn't exist before at all (even Slovaks have referred to it as "Prešporok"). Thus the inclusion at least of the Hungarian and German (and possibly the old Slovak) name of the city is very desirable in the lead. The etymology section can then go on to to explain the etymology of all the names mentioned in the lead, including the modern name (which -as we know- comes from Štúr's misinterpretation of the city's name used in medieval sources). -- CoolKoon (talk) 17:16, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I will ignore your original research and anti-Slovak POV. So read again what Future Perfect at Sunrise wrote[44].--Omen1229 (talk) 09:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

OR? Anti-Slovak POV? Which portion of my reply have you found to be anti-Slovak? Care to be more specific about it? -- CoolKoon (talk) 10:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

It was a fairly innocuous message on CoolKoon's part, Imho.--Nmate (talk) 10:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most of Omen1229's examples are not admissible, for example, almost all Goolge Books results for "Cité du Vatican" are in French (or cite French phrases), similarly, almost all Google Books results for "Warschau" are in German (or cite German sentences). These names do not seem to be widely used by English sources (in contrast to, e.g., "Königsberg" or "Pressburg"). The only acceptable (counter?)example so far is Istanbul. It indeed does not mention immediately the names "Byzantium" and "Constantinople" after "Istanbul", but they are still there in the lead, in the 2nd paragraph. I note however, that both Byzantium and Constantinople have their own articles (which is not the case here). As CoolKoon has also pointed out, the examples that I have mentioned all have similarities with Bratislava, for example, there were changes in their official names in the past century (for Nice, the change was a bit earlier, in 1860), that's why there are lot of English sources that use or mention them (which may explain why their Wikipedia articles immediately provide these variants after the official names). Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

almost all Google Books results for "Warschau" are in German (or cite German sentences). These names do not seem to be widely used by English sources (in contrast to, e.g., "Königsberg" or "Pressburg") > Remarkable original resarch [45] [46] [47]

Byzantium and Constantinople have their own articles, but it has nothing to do with position in the lead. By the way Königsberg has also own article.--Omen1229 (talk) 14:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

What's this obsession of yours with calling everything said by somebody else "original research"?! Is it a term you've just recently looked up in the dictionary and thus are you trying your best to use it whenever you can? Let me clear this up for you then: the topic of this discussion (the Hungarian and German name of the city) is NOT "original research". Besides, it's not like anybody (me, Koertefa, Nmate or anybody else) is trying to push for a fringe theory or something, so please check WP:OR before applying it universally to every single argument you don't agree with (besides, OR is used for content that's added to the articles, thus its extensive usage in reference to your counterarguments might make you look even more ridiculous).

I've checked the links you've provided and guess what: most of the English sources referring to "Warschau" have either had the German name in German context, or the term "Warschau" was part of a geographical/organizational unit's/event's name i.e. most of the time it has been used to refer to ANYTHING BUT the city itself. Thus Koertefa's argument remains to be valid.

Let me ask you this in the end: what's the real reason you don't want the Hungarian and German name to appear in the article's lead section for? -- CoolKoon (talk) 21:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I think fighting over the inclusion of those two names in the lead is childish, the city is in fact called Pozsony by Hungarians even today (I may have objections to that practice, but they hardly matter here), the German name is on the other hand what English historiography uses most frequently (and it's inclusion in the first paragraph helps the reader to connect the dots). Don't see a problem with them both being in the lead. Wladthemlat (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree, in an old version (from 2006) of this article also had those names included. I do not really understand why is so important to remove those names if we "tolerated" for 6 years. I also want to point that fact, you really not saving space, the two version's length almost the same. Moreover, many references mentioning the city on those names, and those nations still calling the city as "Pozsony" or "Pressburg", even the Czech calling it somtimes as "Prešpurk", today. Csendesmark (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, let see: firstly, this is an geographical article not a historical one. So, the only thing that is important here is whether any other name instead Bratislava is currently used in English language, currently official in the city or currently spoken by most inhabitants of the city. The question of how these things were regulated 100 years ago is fully irrelevant since this is year 2012 and not 1912. That is the main point. If nobody here does not provide the evidence that German and Hungarian name are today used in English, today official in the city or today used by majority of city inhabitants then such names are having no place in the first sentence because they are fully irrelevant in the year 2012. Of course, these names should be mentioned in relevant parts of the article that are dealing with history or etymology. PANONIAN 04:56, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

No, the article is also about the history of the city. And as it was demonstrated earlier, about 20% of the English sources use (in appropriate contexts) the names "Pressburg" or "Pozsony". It was also pointed out that several encyclopedias, including the 2012 edition of the prestigious Encyclopaedia Britannica [48], also provide both of these variants. Therefore, these names are widely used by English sources, it's hard to argue with that. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 06:28, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I fully disagree - this is entirely geographical subject. As other geographical subjects, it have a "History" section that describing historical development of the area, but this article is about city of Bratislava in the year 2012 and only about that. Also English sources that you speak about are outdated and are not speaking about Bratislava in 2012. Also, Encyclopedia Britannica mention these two names, but from the link that you provided is clear that this encyclopedia says that these are German name and Hungarian name (not "names used in English language in year 2012"). This is, by all means, not an evidence that these two names are used in English language in year 2012. Also, page of Encyclopedia Britannica does not have an "Names" subsection and thus Hungarian and German name there are mentioned in the lead. Contrary to this, our Bratislava article have "Name" section where both names are already mentioned, and therefore, it is fully pointless to repeat them in the lead. PANONIAN 07:32, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, let me support my position with quotations from Wikipedia naming conventions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#General_guidelines

• Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves.
• In this case, the redundant list of the names in the article's first line should be replaced by a link to the section phrased, for example: "(known also by several alternative names)".
• Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line.

We clearly have more than 3 alternative names for Bratislava, they are mentioned in separate naming section and Wikipedia guideline clearly states that they should not be moved back to the first line. PANONIAN 08:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

That's just an option, that part starts with the word "alternatively". Moreover, we only have two significant alternative names which are widely used by English sources. Let me quote the main guideline (not an alternative possibility):

• The lead: The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parentheses, e.g.: Gulf of Finland (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; [Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv] Error: {{Langx}}: text has italic markup (help); Swedish: Finska viken) is a large bay in the easternmost arm of the Baltic Sea.

The original lead [49], which was stable for years, was fully in line with this guideline. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 08:37, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Straw poll

Anyway, we all can vote to solve this dispute. PANONIAN 07:49, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Is this some popularity contest?

And who are that "we", have you recruited a team for voting purposes?

All parties are reminded that brevity is a virtue, and that admins don't make decisions based on who has the highest word count. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:22, 10 May 2012 (UTC) Csendesmark (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

All users are also reminded that there is no such thing as a "vote" on Wikipedia. By all means, do an RfC with a straw poll, but don't expect it will be closed on mere strength of numbers. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Users who think that Hungarian and German name should not be in the lead

• PANONIAN 07:49, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
• Omen1229 12:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC) I agree with PANONIAN. If nobody here does not provide the evidence that German and Hungarian name are today used in English for modern Bratislava... then such names are having no place in the first sentence because they are fully irrelevant in the year 2012.--Omen1229 (talk) 15:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
• Nelliette - Bratislava is actually the capital of Slovak republic, and mostly with slovakian citizens. Than, I find this problem not on the table. Is it on the first place Bratislava. Thank you. -Nelliette (talk) 18:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
• I was only "looking" over this discussion from the beginning without participating because I was undecided (both (if I may say "sides") have valid arguments), but after reading this I was convinced for excluding this names. To be more precise, according to WP:PLACE - this section , it states Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves.. My personal opinion is that both criteria is meet on the article Bratislava. Adrian (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I am glad that you are trying to discuss this issue, but can I remind you that consensus is not a vote. Remember - consensus will be determined by the side which displays the strongest arguments, according to Wikipedia policies. It might be worth taking this to the dispute resolution noticeboard, where mediators with experience in solving this kind of dispute can help you to reach a resolution. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 20:07, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Voting can`t solve much at this point. The discussion should be continued and we should reach a consensus if possible. Adrian (talk) 20:33, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

NOTE This proposal means the historical names should be deleted in the lead. The current version of the article contains Pressburg in the lead (third paragraph).Fakirbakir (talk) 20:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• JohnBlackburne I agree. Gave my reasons 4 days ago but if we're !voteing then +me.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 21:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
• 78.47.154.66 If you ask me, the recommendation given in the general guidelines of the naming conventions is evident: we recommend (to move alternative names to Names section) if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves.. Why do we ignore these lines, which are so explicit, and prefer to engage in such a long unnecessary discussion? Wikipedia policies and guidelines were invented to describe best practice and to resolve these kind of conflicts. Is there any objective reason not to respect the indications and to make an exception from the above advice? I think not. I can see cca 10 names in the Names section (much more than the limit of 3) and also "there is something notable about the names themselves" (name changes throughout history) 78.47.154.66 (talk) 06:10, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Users who think that Hungarian and German name should be in the lead

This voting does not make sense. The question is whether

• the historical names should follow Bratislava in the first sentence and we should also mention them in the third paragraph (in the lead) (and in the section of names) or
• the historical names should be mentioned only in the first sentence (and in the section of names) or
• the historical names should be mentioned somewhere else in the lead (not in the first sentence); (and in the section of names) or
• historical names should not be in the lead instead they would have to be in the section of etymology (section of names).

It is a difficult question. First I thought we should not mention Pressburg 3 times (in the first sentence, in the lead (third paragraph), in the section of names), however I got unsure. Fakirbakir (talk) 12:35, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not democracy, nothing will be solved by voting and you won´t get consensus one way or another. If you don´t believe me look at this

• Oppose per arguments stated above

See? EllsworthSK (talk) 14:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• Agree, keep em' all! Csendesmark (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2012 (UTC) Sad to see, some editors get a topic-ban (1) for his/her favorite topic, then systematically redact (Kassa, Nagyszombat, Besztercebánya, Nyitra, Újvidék 2) Hungarian names from articles in his/her freetime, instead of building a better encyclopedia. No wonder this is not an FA anymore. :(

Further discussion

This whole thing's getting WAY over my head now. Since a consensus has been reached on this matter numerous times in the past (I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to digging up all the diffs for this, not today anyway), I think that User:PANONIAN has made a grave mistake on going ahead and bringing this up again (like I said earlier: he has sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind). Just on how many more occasions do you want to discuss this topic over and over again? Every time a nationalist/extremists/fanatic/lunatic who doesn't like Hungarian/German (or Hungarians/Germans) comes around and changes the lead? Besides, up until PANONIAN's sudden appearance more or less a consensus was in place for quite a few years (ever since 2006 IIRC). Now came a self-proclaimed expert on Hungarian-Slovak relations (who's neither Hungarian nor Slovak nor seems to be clued about the whole issue) and all the effort made in the past is lost. Why?
I've repeated numerous times already that the Hungarian and German name should be kept in the very first paragraph of the article. Why? Because of historical reasons, all the arguments above AND because it conforms Wikipedia's rules too: Fut.Perf. was wrong when he asserted that it's only the mentions in the English sources that count. The naming conventions page says Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Both in case of Hungarian and Germans these criteria apply. What's so hard to understand about this then?
User:Fakirbakir had a point when objected to the practice of mentioning the Hungarian and German name at least in 3 different parts. Thus I propose the following: the Hungarian and German name (Pozsony and Pressburg) should be mentioned in the first paragraph of the lead. In addition to this the Hungarian and German's name should be explained in the "Names" secion (or a separate "Etymology" section should be created). In the remainder of the article the name Pressburg should be used in historical context up until 1920 and Bratislava should be used in the remainder of the article (i.e. keep the current consensus for the rest of the article). -- CoolKoon (talk) 20:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I am not provoking or being sarcastic (or anything in bad faith) I am genuinely asking, because you mentioned that a consensus was reached on this subject numerous times in the past - can you please provide a link to the consensus in question? Thank you. Adrian (talk) 20:47, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, feel free to dig through all the archived content that deals with this. Other than that my point is that nobody seemed to challenge the appearance of the terms Pozsony and Pressburg for a long time (IIRC everybody was arguing about its place within the article itself instead). THIS is the consensus I've referred to. -- CoolKoon (talk) 20:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I can find in this 2 links talk about this , 1 and 2. In the first link they start talking about this but finish with the conclusion in what period of history which name to use. In the other 2 links you provided as far as I can conclude they are not talking about the lead names. At the 2 links they do talk about this, but a consensus states to mention alternative names in later the first paragraph - but not in the lead. Maybe I can`t find it, can you please help me find it? I can`t really manage in all this discussion. Can you point more precise to a consensus? Adrian (talk) 21:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• Pressburg is the primary name used in English for this city when discussing it prior to 1920. It absolutely should be in the lead. Pozsony also has some currency in English, and I think it should also be in the lead. It is tedious that we keep having to have this discussion. Panonian has been intermittently crusading on this point for about a decade at this point. The basic point is that any name that English-speaking readers are likely to come across should be in the lead, and that's quite clearly the case for both of these names (but especially for Pressburg). john k (talk) 21:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I personally don`t insist on either solution, I just thought that I could re-start the discussion in the interest to resolve this. Adrian (talk) 21:32, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

It was solved many times, but time to time we found some editor who start a "rampage" over some articles. Csendesmark (talk) 21:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, john k, I "been intermittently crusading on this point" with the only goal to implement Naming conventions and NPOV policy. Is there any reason why an geographical article in 2012 should implement issues from before WW1? There is no a single word about "special importance of pre-WW1 names" in Wikipedia naming conventions. Either we will implement these conventions either we will have chaos. In fact, if NPOV policies and Naming conventions are not implemented there will be constant disputes about usage of alternative names in many articles about towns in Eastern Europe. There are many other users who sharing my opinion and the basic problem here is that some people are trying to implement one kind of solutions for cities in Eastern Europe and another kind of solutions for cities in rest of the World. My efforts for NPOV approach are certainly not the problem here - problem is POV-isation, double standards, disrespect towards wiki policies and tolerance towards various forms of nationalism. In another words, these different standards for cities in Eastern Europe are exactly forced because of tolerance towards various nationalisms: if Greater Hungarian nationalists are thinking that Bratislava should be a part of Greater Hungary then Hungarian name is forced into first paragraph of this article, if Greater German nationalists are thinking that Kaliningrad should be a part of Greater Germany then German name is forced into first paragraph of that article, if Greater Polish nationalists are thinking that Lvov should be a part of Greater Poland then Polish name is forced into first paragraph of that article, etc, etc. That is the source of all problems and disputes in Wikipedia about Eastern European articles. PANONIAN 19:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia naming conventions have to do with the titles of articles, not their content, so it is irrelevant. Our content policies, in fact, say that any name used frequently in English should be mentioned in the lead. We mention Königsberg in the lead to Kaliningrad not because of German revanchism, but because that is how it was referred to in English for most of its history, and many English readers will come upon that name in their reading. You are the one who keeps bringing up ethnic nationalism. john k (talk) 23:11, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, John K, let put aside everything else and let focus only on this guide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#General_guidelines - the guideline says that "The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parentheses". In my understanding, this describes the case when such alternative names do not exist in the newly created article and then the lead sentence is the place where some users would include alternative names if there aren't any in the new article. Second guideline says this: "Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names" - so, this is not obligation, but it is an recommendation that this is done if there are more than 2 names. Third guideline says: "Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line." - this is very clear. While there is no obligation for move of names into separate section, the guideline clearly says that in the case if these names are already moved to such section they "should not be moved back to the first line". Fourth guideline says that "as an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead " - in this case, neither Hungarian or German name are representing "a local official name" and therefore, they should not be in the lead in accordance with this guideline. PANONIAN 16:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Now really, when will you stop your paranoid assertion that all (or most of) the Hungarian editors you're dealing with represent "great Hungarian nationalism"? If you REALLY believe that (Hungarian) editors who you're dealing with are some sorts of sons of devil/horned demons, then any chance for a consensus will be futile. Sure, you MAY claim that you represent a "neutral" POV, yet what you've demonstrated so far was not unlike the typical signs of Slovak nationalists: heavy pushing of the (perceived) "Slovak POV" while disregarding any NPOV, consensus or other POVs. And when somebody apprehends you for that, you just assert that those editors represent an "irredentist/Great Hungarian nationalist/imperialist/enslaving(WTF?!) POV". Did it EVER occur to you that editors (who don't share your views) have called for the reinstating of the Hungarian and German name aren't doing this to get some sort of "moral revenge", but out of a desire to improve the article? Like I (and others) have said the name "Bratislava" did NOT exist before 1918-20, so you won't find it mentioned in ANY of the (English or other) sources published before that (hell it hasn't been used by the Treaty of Trianon either, as others have pointed this out). Why this fanatical resentment of the Hungarian and German name? Why are you making up all of these excuses AGAINST including them in the article? Do you have any RATIONAL explanation for that (and no, pointing to your own misinterpretation of the WP rules and policies don't count)?

Since you've kept pointing to the naming convention policy, I felt compelled to go through it again too. And look what I found: The lead: The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parentheses, e.g.: (...) Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place). So no matter what rule do you cite, this section makes it clear that BOTH Pozsony and Pressburg are allowed to stay EVEN if they aren't mentioned in English sources at all. Thus your attempts at removing the Hungarian and German names from various other articles while trying to cover your rear with WP rules (misinterpreted in your favor of course) lead me to think that your true motives might be little more than pushing some obscure (perhaps a pan-Slavist?) POV to which you try to garner support with some WP:wikilawyering. You've actually confirmed this yourself when you spoke about the reminding of "Slovaks of their former slavery" above too. -- CoolKoon (talk) 23:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

At books.google.com Pozsony will get 26,400 results[50], Pressburg 436,000[51] and and Bratislava 3,340,000[52]. So Pozsony 0,69%, Pressburg 11,47% and Bratislava 87,84% + we have also results for Istropolis, Brezalauspurc, Presbourg, Presburgo, Posonium, Pisonium, Pressporek, Prešpurk, Prešporok, Wilsonovo mesto (Wilson's city), Bratysława etc. Only Pressburg is used by at least 10% of sources in the English language, but without results for others alternative names and third guideline very clear says: "Once such a section or paragraph ("Names" or "Etymology") is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line."--Omen1229 (talk) 09:20, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

It very clearly states it in a section which starts with the word "alternatively". Plus, I got about 193,000 English hits for "Pozsony" (by clicking on the link you've provided). I guess the number of results may depend on your location. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 09:36, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

This article contains Etymology section, so this "alternative" guideline is very clearly for this article + we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves. And your results: Pozsony 4,86%, Pressburg 10,98% and Bratislava 84,15%.--Omen1229 (talk) 10:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I still fail to see the reason why do you keep arguing with all those percentages. First of all this is not the Slovak government where they decide upon the permission to use Hungarian in any form by the 20% rule and second please read my post above again. The rule specifically says that a relevant foreign language name can be inserted into the lead even if it's used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place. And this definitely applies for Germans and Hungarians alike. And IDK about you, but I haven't seen any "etymology" section in the article the last time I've checked (which was less than a minute ago), so your argument seems to be somewhat invalid. -- CoolKoon (talk) 23:41, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Considering that it is obvious that 78.98.47.189 was Omen1229, it is unlikely that Omen1229's opinion is based on any google hits.--Nmate (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Obvious for you :-D Nice imagination :-D If it is "obvious" then it should not be difficult to provide evidence. So again naming convention policy: Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend (See, Wikipaedists recommend...) that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves...--Omen1229 (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

That naming convention policy also says: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted.". This rule is absolutely applicable for the article. What you are saying is totally irrelevant, Nmate is just telling his own beliefs Csendesmark (talk) 22:55, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• If it was not clear from my previous comments, I think that both "Pressburg" and "Pozsony" should be mentioned in the lead, based on the arguments previously presented. More precisely, I could accept the first three variants of Fakirbakir's list, but I prefer the very first one, namely: to keep everything as it was before the whole issue. I also think that this voting is futile, the decision should be based on arguments and not on (potentially only emotionally motivated) "votes". In case there were no more arguments, I think we should seek for a third, neutral opinion on the issue, for example, in form of an RfC or a dispute resolution. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 09:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

At the moment I have no concrete opinion on where exactly the alternative names should go, but it's pretty clear from a quick read of the article that in several instances there are attempts to "beat the Slovaks over the head with other language names" in a very POV manner. Specifically, in the lede, "long known in English by the German name Preßburg" is pretty much POV (and unsourced). Putting in Pressburg is one thing, putting in this "long known in English" stuff is POV. Likewise in the names section: "Bratislava, as it was renamed on 6 March 1919" - did the name "Bratislava" exist before March 6 1919 (don't give me any nonsense about "official names" either; all that stuff is pulled out of thin air)? If so then "it was renamed" is obvious POV pushing.

There's probably good reasons to include the German and Hungarian names somewhere in the article. But the way it's currently being done is designed to provoke, taunt and troll.VolunteerMarek 06:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

At one another article, when the dispute was about including a Polish name in the lede, you may have felt it differently, Volunteer Marek : [53]--Nmate (talk) 08:57, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Dear Volunteer Marek, the original lead was stable until Pannonian started his/her crusade, why don't you taking this info into the equation? Csendesmark (talk) 12:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

@Nmate - if the inclusion of a Polish name in the lede was being done in the same obnoxious/POV fashion as is being done here, I would - and have in the past - object just like here. The link you give does not show anything you claim it does. Yes, alternative names should be included (I've always consistently supported this) - but the current way of it being done is obviously POV.

@Csendesmark - honestly I don't give a flip about whether an article has been "stable" or not (aside maybe from GAs or FAs). Show me a policy which says "stability" trumps NPOV and other content related policies. I've seen way too many articles on Wikipedia which have been total crap for a long time, hence "stable". VolunteerMarek 18:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the present state of the article's lead section is a mess. Hence I've made the (bolded) suggestion above. What do you think of that (i.e. mentioning the alternate names in the first paragraph of the lead, explaining their origin in the names/etymology section and that's it)? -- CoolKoon (talk) 22:40, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that's fine - just that if you put in the German and Hungarian names in the first sentence (in parentheses) then the statement "long known in English by the German name Preßburg" down in the third paragraph should be removed. Basically what I'm objecting to is the attempt to beat the reader over the head with "Pressburg" etc. repeatedly.VolunteerMarek 04:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, yes, it'd be explained in a name/etymology section (plus perhaps a note explaining the usage of Pressburg in the history section) and that's it. Free from clutter. -- CoolKoon (talk) 15:03, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

That's also fine with me. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 04:26, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Be that as suggested by Volunteer Marek.--Nmate (talk) 07:42, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

NOTE: So have we finally reached a consensus about this? Since the regular Slovak editors of the article (EllsworthSK and Wladthemlat) seem to agree with leaving the Hungarian and German name too, could we close this and apply the convention to the article? -- CoolKoon (talk) 13:37, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I do not agree, as well as few other users, so there is no any consensus here. Of course, I will not engage myself in revert warring to impose my own opinion, but consider the fact that your solution is POV and, due to that, it is certainly not a permanent solution for this article. Other users will certainly express their concerns over POV nature of your solution in the future. PANONIAN 08:18, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

PANONIAN: do you have any other suggestion which may be suitable even to those who currently do not want to completely remove these names from the lead? What would be a good compromise in your opinion? KœrteFa {ταλκ} 08:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I'm eager to hear it too. -- CoolKoon (talk) 10:22, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I am protesting against this war, that waged the party of magyar chauvinists. Primarily, the article Bratislava is not complete, isn´t precise and isn´t competent, but the most important thing for this chauvinists is promote the non contemporary appellation in magyar language. And this is now seal - I am demanding the rejoinder. Salute - --Nelliette (talk) 18:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You should cooperate and help to solve this debate instead of accusation. Fakirbakir (talk) 18:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Dear whoever you are. You've never EVER edited this article before this unproductive discussion started. So WHO did invite you to this discussion and WHAT makes you think that some name-calling (e.g. magyar chauvinists) will make your point get through. In fact, do you have ANYTHING to say besides badmouthing Hungarians, or you'll just stick to the accusations? Oh, and I couldn't understand your last 2-3 sentences. Could you repeat them in Slovak so that I could translate it for the rest of us to understand? -- CoolKoon (talk) 23:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I understand it thusly: "the most important thing for this chauvinists is promote the non contemporary appellation in magyar language" = the most important thing for these chauvinists is to promote the non-contemporary Hungarian name, "I am demanding the rejoinder" = I would like a reply, "this is now seal", umm, maybe this. Anyway, I agree with the sentiment, this "discussion" is getting disruptive and the fact that people on both sides are unwilling to compromise is simply lame. Are the people who are shedding so much sweat and tears over this really focused on improving the article or are they just trying to assert their national pride? If I hadn't stupidly started the whole thing I would be handing out a whole bunch of WP:ARBEE sanctions. - filelakeshoe 09:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I also agree that calling each other "chauvinists" is quite disruptive and certainly contra-productive (but, surely the simplest thing to do). On the other hand, it is quite hard to make a compromise in a binary (yes or no) question -- one of the parties will surely be disappointed. Those who think that the two most relevant alternative names should remain in the lead already suggested a compromise, see, e.g., CoolKoon's comments. According to this, e.g., all other appearances of these names in the lead should be omitted, it is enough to mention them right after the title (similarly to the articles of, e.g., Târgu Mureş, Deva, Miercurea Ciuc, Trieste, Gdańsk, Poznan, Bydgoszcz, Nice, Wroclaw, Strasbourg, etc.). This is already a compromise, since, e.g., the sentence which stated that the city was "long known in English by the German name Preßburg" has been removed. Naturally, I am open to any compromise and wondering what compromise could those who think that no alternative names should be mentioned in the lead suggest. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 18:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh come on, Filelakeshoe! Admit it that it was you who's uploaded that picture (it's just hilarious) :D But jokes aside the issue started by PANONIAN (and not you, I'm telling this the second time) is really a binary one as Koertefa has pointed out I'm afraid. You see PANONIAN has wanted to remove the Hungarian and German name completely, which I (and others) deemed completely unacceptable. Thus if the Hungarian and German names will stay, he surely won't be content/happy with that. Omen1229 seems to be aiming for the same thing (evidenced mostly by his edit log too) and his suggestion for a "compromise" seems to be the removal of the Hungarian and German name from the lead only. Unfortunately I (and perhaps some other editors too) deem this still unacceptable given the city's utmost importance in Hungarian history. Yes, I agree that arguing about this is a VERY lame thing (especially in the light of the fact that the very same issue has been discussed ~4-5 times in the last 6 years), but somebody ALWAYS comes around and brings this issue up over and over again. Besides, if such editors won't be arguing about the title/lead section, they'd have something against the content instead=the same thing. And what's worse is that this whole debate seems to be spilling over to the Cluj-Napoca article too. -- CoolKoon (talk) 23:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Pressburg should be included

I don't know anything about the Hungarian name (and don't feel qualified to express an opinion), but "Pressburg" should be included in the lead section -- not because it is German, but because it's the name the city was known by in English for centuries. "Peking" is mentioned in the lead section of Beijing for similar reasons... AnonMoos (talk) 00:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Peking is completely different. It's still used in English, as the name of many things (Peking opera, Peking University) and sometimes as the name of the city. It was the common English name until only a couple of decades ago so there are many people who know it by that name.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 01:14, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

And the Treaties of Pressburg are still known as such in English. There's some difference, but it's really not "completely different". What difference there is is mainly due to the fact that Bratislava is less well-known among English speakers than Beijing... AnonMoos (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Table 1. The development of ethnic structure in Bratislava (%) Year Slovaks Hungarians Germans Other Total 1890 16.6 19.9 59.9 3.6 50,546 1910 14.9 40.5 41.9 2.7 78,223 1930 29.8 16.2 28.1 25.9 123,844 1950 90.2 3.5 0.6 5.7 170,000 1970 91.5 3.5 0.4 4.6 290,000 1990 90.4 5.3 0.2 4.1 442,000

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bratislava/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Thehistorian10 (talk · contribs) 20:58, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Introduction

This is a review of the article "Bratislava" as submitted for review and possible promotion on 29 October 2012.

Standard of Review

For an article to achieve the status of "Good article", it must meet all criteria as set out in the good article criteria. In each criterion, the article must be examined de novo (i.e. afresh) during the examination for that criterion.

well-written

Applicable guideline

The Guideline states as follows:

" (a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct; and (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation"

Findings

At the outset, I note that the prose is clear and there are no over-long sentences. The spelling and grammar throughout the article are clear and observe all rules as set down in English grammar.

The lead section provides a good introduction, supplying the highlights of the city's role in Slovakia, as well as providing an introduction to its history. It has a good and sensible layout. There are no words to watch in this article, and the guidelines on list incorporation and fiction do not apply, seeing as this article is neither fictitious, nor does it include a list.

Conclusion

I would pass this article on the first criterion.

Applicable guideline=

The Guideline states as follows:

"

(a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline; (b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;and (c) it contains no original research."

Findings

The requirement to provide a list of all references is fulfilled - there is an extensive list of more than one hundred references in the "notes" section at the end of the article.

Inline citations are exemplary - for each assertion, there is an inline citation either in teh same line, sentence or paragraph to support that assertion. The citations are reliable, being mostly from official Slovak websites, European websites or other published works about the city.

As a result of the above concerning inline citations, there are no obvious examples of original research.

Conclusion

The article has passed this criterion.

broad in its coverage

Applicable guideline

The applicable guideline states as follows:

"

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;[7] and (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)."

Findings

The article covers all relevant aspects of the topic, and, as a result thereof, it is required to descend into detail, but it does not descend into irrelevant detail - i.e. describing each and every street or square.

Conclusion

The article has passed this criterion

Neutral

applicable guideline

The relevant applicable guideline states as follows: "it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each."

findings

I find this article to be neutral. There is no evidence of bias in favour of the city in comparison with other article devoted to cities.

Conclusion

This article passes this criterion

Stability

Applicable guideline

The applicable Gudeline states as follows: "it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute."

Findings

Having consulted the edit history, there have been no edit wars, other than repeated reversal of vandalism, which is normal in Wikipedia. The talk page does not demonstrate an edit war either.

Conclusion

The article has passed this criterion

Illustrations

Applicable guideline

The applicable guideline states as follows: "Illustrated, if possible, by images: (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and (b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions."

Findings

I find there is a good variety of images. There is a montage at the beginning of the article, and each image is placed so as to be related to the paragraph where it is placed. Every image is appropriately captioned and has the relevant copyright statements.

conclusion

The article has passed this criterion.

Overall conclusion

For the foregoing reasons, I have the pleasure and honour of informing the community of editors that this article has passed all the criteria for it to become a good article, and shall thus be promoted to good article status.

Major error on Bratislava page

Hey guys just wondering, on the old bratislava page, it says they're the only capital on the border of two states, isnt Vientianne one too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.55.212.212 (talk • contribs)

No, Vientiane only borders Thailand. Bratislava borders both Austria and Hungary. - filelakeshoe (t / c) 10:22, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

What about these contenders? Rome and the Vatican City (which both sit on the Italian-Vatican border); Kinshasa and Brazzaville, which sit on the Congo River where it forms the border of Democratic Republic of Congo and the Republic of Congo; Monaco, on the Monaco-French border; Vaduz, on the Liechtenstein-Swiss border. Sluefootstu (talk) 03:24, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Those all only sit on one border, not two. – filelakeshoe (t / c)  10:38, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I think the Slovak pronunciation should be /ˈbracislava/, with a /c/ not a /t/. This seems to be the pronunciation used in the audio file, and according to Slovak orthography, the combination /ci/ is spelled ti whereas the combination /ti/ is spelled ty (the same is true of Czech, incidentally). 86.147.102.169 (talk) 14:22, 19 April 2015 (UTC) (edit: wrong template. 86.147.102.169 (talk) 14:25, 19 April 2015 (UTC))

Fixed. Peter238 (talk) 03:12, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I heard both versions, and the audio file seems to be closer to /ti/, not /ci/. Andrew Shadura (talk) 09:51, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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I have just added archive links to 31 external links on Bratislava. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070305020757/http://www.visit.bratislava.sk:80/en/VismoOnline_ActionScripts/File.aspx?id_org=700014&id_dokumenty=1059 to http://www.visit.bratislava.sk/en/VismoOnline_ActionScripts/File.aspx?id_org=700014&id_dokumenty=1059
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• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.slovanfutbal.com/sk/?go=sien_naj_uspechy
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• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.bratislava-city.sk/bratislava-twin-towns
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• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.rathaus.bremen.de/sixcms/detail.php?gsid=bremen54.c.2259.de
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.bratislava-city.sk/bratislava-twin-towns
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://onkormanyzat.szekesfehervar.hu/index.php?pg=page_49881
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