Talk:Born to Be (EP)

JYPE has revealed Born To Be is actually the 8th mini album and not titled as their second full album as previously thought.

Hello, JYP has revealed the album and its being classified as a mini album and not full like previously thought. their reasons for this could be several things, there are only 5 group songs, they didnt want to title it that way without Lia, whatever their reasons are, its going to be confusing when the actual full 2nd album is released later down the road and is called such, and the 9th mini album as well. Tonymack21 (talk) 03:59, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of the amount of group songs, the release includes enough tracks long enough to constitute a full-length release, which means having the album be listed as a studio album here would be more appropriate with respect to the sources backing the information in the article, hence its present classification. While it is a mini-album, and has now been acknowledged as such here, we are counting albums, extended plays, mixtapes, et cetera, here, so its appropriate to stick with that. For now, the status quo will remain as most sources classify the release as a studio album. If the agency will promote the next studio album as the group's second, an explanatory note will be used to clarify. EdrianJustine (talk) 16:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I'll agree to disagree, as kpop has different rules regarding these things, and feel the classification of the people who made it should be the deciding factor for continuity and clarity. Those sources are either not considering that or assumed that before the reveal, but thanks for the response and promise to include some explanation when the next one comes out as it is almost certainly going to be billed as "the second album" or something similar. My thoughts were to try and clarify it now in hopes of less confusion later. Tonymack21 (talk) 16:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Hearkening back to this, many reliable sources have begun to label the release as the group's eighth EP. However, some sources continue to label it as the group's second studio album. Personally, I'm fine with classifying the release as the former, but I need to hear more thoughts on this. Tagging other editors involved in this matter @Paper9oll, @Lililolol. EdrianJustine (talk) 03:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

yes, there was a lot of assumption by even the itzy Fandom it would be classed as a full LP before it was announced that it would be the 8th mini (and that is also used on the companies official materials) due to track count, but kpop has some of their own rules regarding these things. Limelight just released an 18 track EP as well. Terms aren't apples to apples in kpop compared to western music and terms. I do appreciate you being open to this. Tonymack21 (talk) 03:25, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The usage is rather mixed in reliable sources regardless of languages hence there isn't a clear "primary topic" disambiguation that I can strongly agree on. Personally, I don't find the current solution broken in any way, given the ambiguity. Additionally, Itzy isn't an exception in this regard. Previous examples, like Red Velvet, Exo, Apink, and others, released their music with a similar marketing style that introduces ambiguity. To date, even if they have released newer albums marketed as "[x] studio album", there have been no changes on Wikipedia for their earlier releases, which were marketed similarly as "[y] mini album" at that point in time. The general consensus (though I can't recall where, and it's hard to dig up) is to use common sense based on the number of tracks moving forward. I also don't see this changing anytime soon, so perhaps we should consider dropping the stick. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 07:09, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

"Previous examples, like Red Velvet, Exo, Apink, and others, released their music with a similar marketing style that introduces ambiguity"

Please, would you be so kind as to explain what you mean by this and provide more specific examples? The only one I can think of is Red Velvet with their "ReVe Festival" series of EPs (and one LP) that lack the distinctive "The X (Mini) Album" subtitle that most modern albums from SM Entertainment include, but those are considered "special albums" alongside their two Summer EPs.

Furthermore, here on Wikipedia, Exo's 2017 Winter Special Album 'Universe' is also clasified as an EP despite having 8 tracks, an amount that other groups (say, Blackpink) consider a studio album. Stray Kids' last two "mini" albums (Maxident and Rock-Star) are still considered by Wikipedia to be EPs despite also containing 8 tracks.

I don't understand this need to stick to track amount when concerning Korean music, instead of going by what the company states. Whether it's 10 tracks or 5 tracks long; Born To Be is Itzy's 8th mini album, NOT a studio album. Steppenwolf2018 (talk) 01:29, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@EdrianJustine, @Steppenwolf2018, @Paper9oll, @Tonymack21: Coming back to this since it's affecting the following album Gold as well, the article should be rewritten to reflect that this is ITZY's 8th EP. Numerous sources, including a source that we currently cite (cite 7), call it their 8th EP. For example: Billboard, The Korea Herald, Yonhap News Agency, Korea JoongAng Daily, Dazed and The Korea Times (after initially calling it a "full-length album") all call it an EP or mini-album, post-release. That's not even getting into Korean-language media. The only source that I've seen still call it a studio album is NME, but at this point it feels a bit like WP:FORUM to go against the reputable source consensus. I was planning on making the change on my own per WP:BEBOLD, but seeing as though there's a talk page discussion I wanted to at least bring it up again first. AG202 (talk) 14:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done as my personal BEFORE check based on post-release sourcing for Gold is evidenced enough on post English and Korean news articles to remove the initial ambiguity of 50-50 sourcing split regardless of languages from pre and post-release of Born to Be at that point of time till Gold release. Based on my own BEFORE check, I have BOLDly moved the article to its current titling aligning with WP:ALBUMDAB naming guidelines. Any disagreement of such, please BOLDly request at WP:RMT for move reversion without WP:PING provided your rationale is valid i.e. my move is deemed to be not following WP:ALBUMDAB naming guidelines and/or you disagree with my rationale i.e. your own BEFORE check shows the ambiguity remains to date. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 15:55, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! AG202 (talk) 17:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you :) Tonymack21 (talk) 22:26, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Studio album/EP

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Please go through proper WP:DISPUTERESOLUTION i.e. WP:3O either in this talk page or in WikiProjects like WT:KO or WT:WPMU or WT:ALBUM where traffic is higher before re-opening any RFC pertaining to this topic. — 🎄🎆 Paper9oll 🎆🎄 (🔔 • 📝) 06:57, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

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There has been a constant back and forth between Born to Be being classified as a studio album as is the status quo or as an extended play (EP; mini album), as some editors have proposed. The former argues that this is the case due to anticipated length of the release, noting the number of tracks, as well as the sources in the article supporting the notion that the release is indeed a studio album. In contrast, some editors have suggested that the release is a mini album (categorically equivalent to an EP), noting the press releases made by the group's agency as well as the labelling on the album's packaging. Furthermore, I would like to request for comments regarding this matter to finally settle it at once. EdrianJustine (talk) 04:55, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I would say the case for listing it an EP/mini as the company states will keep album chronology/numbering consistent as future releases are made. When they do eventually title another album a "full" they are likely going to call it the second album, and the next mini will be referred to as the ninth. It will always be off if it isnt classified as the company does them, leading to more confusion. Tonymack21 (talk) 07:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

• Procedural close This RFC fails WP:RFCBEFORE. There has been no discussion of this question on the talk page of this article. @EdrianJustine: I suggest that you withdraw your RFC and only open one if all available discussion venues (starting with this talkpage—and if that fails, WP:Third opinion and/or WP:Dispute resolution) have been exhausted without resolution. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 20:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

To add, quite a few of the article sources appear to be assumptions similar to what lots of people thought based only on the amount of tracks before the album was fully revealed, but important to note that JYP Entertainment never stated that it would be titled a full, and in kpop that would usually be the case. For instance the upcoming g-idle is officially announced by the label as a full album. Tonymack21 (talk) 01:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pre-release track

I've noticed that in some other articles about K-pop acts, their pre-release songs are listed as singles. Therefore, why not also list "Born to Be" and "Mr. Vampire" as singles here? Lililolol (talk) 17:18, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

While they have been listed here, as well as the pre-release tracks from Kill My Doubt, in hindsight they still should not be. What constitutes as a single is still pretty unclear knowing K-pop and its terminologies, but the main indicator on why they weren't listed is their lack of presence on streaming platforms, or possibly on radio as well. Looking at the KOMCA database, "Born to Be" has still not been listed as released, and looking back, the pre-release tracks on Kill My Doubt weren't also until the EP itself was released, unlike the pre-release songs of other acts. To add to that, having a music video does not make a song a single. If that's the case, all of the solo tracks should be listed as singles. EdrianJustine (talk) 15:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Would agree with you here. Tonymack21 (talk) 16:57, 26 December 2023 (UTC)