Talk:Bodb Derg

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Should we move this page from Bodb Dearg to Bodb Derg? I feel a little uncomfortable with this apparent hybrid of Old and Middle Irish spelling. We could also move to Bodhbh Dearg if people have some reason for preferring Middle Irish. QuartierLatin1968 15:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If any changes are to be made, I would support using the old "Bodb Derg" spelling for title, but mentioning that it would now be spelled "Bodhbh Dearg " in the article. --Svartalf 18:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Great! Done. Would it still be Bodhbh in the modern spelling? They haven't changed it to Bóbh or anything? Also, citations. Where is Bodb named as a son of the Dagda (was it Aisling Oenguso?). Is the suggestion that Bodb might be synonymous with Badb your own? QuartierLatin1968 18:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

My pocket dictionary says it's "Badhbh", or possibly "Bádhbh", if the name really refers to the carrion crow. and, ermmh... I wish I remembered if that "Red Crow" from reading that interpretation somewhere, or if I myself jumped to conclusions. Trouble is that I don't have proper source documents readily accessible, so I don't even remember where to look for confirmation. I do remember seeing it somewhere for the "son of the Dagda" part. (after some research) In Lady Gregory's "Gods and Fighting Men". I also found mention of a Bodb, a lord of the Sidhe having his seat at Femuin in Munster, in the "Dream of Oengus" and the "Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel" but can't be sure whether it's the same person. --Svartalf 21:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

(After reading the article fully again) woosh... Where did you find that bit about scribal practiced and the goddess Badb being spelled "Bodb"? if it's certifiable, it certainly would be a step to confirming my hypothesis, even though I can't find proof. and if the Bodb of Sodh Femuin is positively identified with Bodb Derg, (my texts don't go that far, and I refused to commit to the jump) by a certifiable source, then that's it. --Svartalf 21:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I knew I'd seen an example of that spelling mistake someplace or other; I've finally tracked an example down in LGE. Several caveats, however: (1) short a and o are often interchanged in old Irish MSS, not just with these two names. I'm not sure what the reason is; it might just sloppy writing in some cases. (2) Badb and Bodb are very distinct characters: they're different genders, they do different things, they have different parentage. (3) The fact that modern Irish a and á sometimes sound like o's (depending on the person's accent) doesn't prove much with regard to the words' etymology.

My translation of Aisling Óenguso doesn't mention Bodb's paternity; the Dagdae just says, "Go see Bodb, for he is king of Mumu and he is wise" or words to that effect. Which you wouldn't say if you were telling your son to go visit his brother. On the other hand, I see that P.W.Joyce's version of "The Children of Lir" does identify Bove (sic) as the Dagda's son. But Joyce writes a very literary version of a very late tale, so I tend to give credence to the earlier material (including the LGE genealogy). So I'll cite that.

Hmm, how do we prove that Bodb Derg and Bodb Síde ar Femen are the same? This question has never actually occurred to me before. I'll ponder it awhile. QuartierLatin1968 04:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)