Talk:Black panther (symbol)

Savli

I changed the ajective of "amateur historian" to Dr. Jozko Šavli, as it seems peyorative. First he completed his studies in Economics at the University of Ljubljana. Afterwards, he achieved his doctorate in Social Economic Sciences (see "Who is afraid of the Black Panther?") at the University of Vienna. Economic studies include also economic history, which does not differentiate much from general history.--Marcos G. Tusar (talk) 14:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's discuss the issue which seems to come up often. I agree with Marcos g. Tusar that "amateur historian" is an inappropriate designation. Šavli is, among other, a historian: most of his theories are flawed, little doubt about that, but so are the theories of many other, "professional" historians. The distinction between "amateur" and "professional" is a dubious one and in any case hardly aplicable in the case of Šavli, where we are dealing with a person with a PhD in social&economic sciences from a recognized university aho has spent a big part of his life in historical research. It is true that he is a highly controversial author and that most of his theories have been rejected by academic circles and do not have a scientific validity - but this has little to do with the qualification "amateur". Viator slovenicus (talk) 02:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Innocents Aboad

This statement has been taken directly from the "reliable sources" of Marcos G. Tušar:
"Carantha is publishing in the first place material, which is suppressed by the massmedia in Slovenia. We are publishing in English, as to make the material accessible to the world, in first place to the descendants of Slovenian immigrants... the latest discoveries in the field of Slovenian history and culture are actually astonishing. But in Slovenia they remain suppressed... Carantha editorial staff " . (http://www.carantha.net/echo_i___letters_from_our_readers_.htm))
Marschner (talk) 14:21, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Black-Pantherism

The following passages show that the sectarian believers in Black-Pantherism suffer from acute persecution mania:
"..the standpoint of the official historiography in Lublana (Slovenia), as published in several articles by the Slovenian mass media, has sided with the Carinthian lobby, which is a clear sign ...of an accorded action counter the Slovenian historical and state tradition. The one side of the campaign shows the ancient Austrian expansionistic circles, speaking through the Carinthian local-national trumpet, while the other shows their ally, the present-day official historiography in Slovenia. Evidently, the latter is still under the control of the ex-Yugoslav apparatus. Both sides have worked in combined effort to destroy the Slovenian historical and state tradition... an unfair opinion-terror, which historical academic circles of Lublana had carried out through the mass media. Under »scientific« pretext, as in the one-time Marxist doctrine, this circle once again tried to inoculate into the public mind several easily demonstrable distortions concerning Slovenian historical tradition. Such tactics were used, and not without certain success, since the beginning of Yugoslavia.... Perhaps, the ex-Yugoslav secret service paid some time ago several individuals to publicly voice: »I am ashamed to be Slovenian!«... Delo, Dnevnik, Vecer... These newspapers are evidently in the hands of the ex-Yugoslav lobby...
Until this very day, Slovenian press and television, which have been under full control of the ex-Yugoslav lobby, not even once ventured to publish the Black Panther picture, as not to »publicly« recognize this sign. Moreover, in Slovenian schools there have been registered examples of oppression carried out against students, who are interested in Carantanian history and who dare to wear the Panther image in public... As it shows today, in Slovenia, which is still oppressed by the ex-Yugoslav (Serbian) lobby, a kind of silent revolution is taking place against the opinion-terror. The fight for freedom of mind and speech against the forced Yugoslav opinion-terror and its ideology continues. It is like a divine finger: Many obstacles have been put in the Panther's path, but its march cannot be stopped."(http://www.carantha.net/under_the_black_panther_flag.htm=) Marschner (talk) 14:21, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

About the article

Interesting to read the article in [1] written by Dr. Šavli

Dr. Šavli answers:

It is not about a Carinthian, but about a Carantanian symbol, respectively, the coat of arms. Why Carantanian? It appears for the first time on the seal of Ottokar III, Margrave of the Carantanian March (later Styria), when Carantania in its historical existence still existed. At that time it was introduced by Carinthia (dukedom) and Styria (march). Thus, the appellation “Carantanian” means, that the Black Panther became the exclusive coat of arms of Carantanian territory, and by law wholly legitimate.

When I published my research findings on the Black Panther in Glas Korotana (No 7 Vienna, 1981), Prof. Dr. Hans Jäger-Sunstenau, the then chairman of the Austrian heraldic association Adler in Vienna, published in the journal Archivum Herladicum (Bulletin 3 - 4, Lausanne 1982) a review with the following title: Heraldische Symbole im Alten Slowenisch Karantanien (Heraldic Symbols in ancient Slovenian Carantania). I think, the title speaks for itself.

At the beginning of the 90s, I also published several articles in the official journal of the Society, The Augustan (California). The articles dealt with Slovenian historical symbols: Prince’s Stone, Duke’s Throne, Goldenhorn, etc., as well as the Black Panther. I have never heard of any criticism.

Heraldry is not the same thing as history, therefore I decisively reject the remarks made by the historian Peter Štih and the archaeologist Andrej Pleterski, both of them teachers at the University of Ljubljana (Slovenia). Heraldry is not their professional field. I have never tracked down a single heraldic article, that these two have published concerning this matter (!). I am asking myself, how can they dare to judge the accuracy of a study, that is not of their competence?

Therefore, the epithet “amateur historian”, with which the historian Štih and the archaeologist Pleterski attack my personality, I find first of all false and second tasteless and offensive. Once again I would like to stress the fact, that it is not about history and archeology but in primis about heraldry.

Moreover, the unfolding of the Black Panther as a high quality coat of arms of Carantania affected deeply the Yugoslav (South Slav) ideology, which is even nowadays kept alive by historians of the University of Ljubljana. In sense of this, they explain that the existence of Carantania, the Slovenian Medieval duchy (mentioned for the first time in 595 AD) was a “short-lived creation” only. It should have ceased to exist already in 820 AD. Thereafter, Carantania fell under the “millinery German yoke”, from which it was rescued by its Serbian brethren as early as in 1918.

In Tito's Yugoslavia such explanation was dictated by the Belgrade regime in order to degrade the Slovenian people. Here is a corresponding quotation: Says Pavle Ivic, a linguist and member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts: “The Croatians and Slovenes have practically no history, and they never fought for their nation. They have suffered, perhaps quite naturally, from an inferiority complex, first toward Austria and then toward Serbia.” (Times International, October 14, 1991).

Such a standpoint concerning Slovenian history was dictated by Belgrade, and in this connection the University of Ljubljana was no exemption. - In reality, Carantania continued to exist through the centuries. In the 13th century, its lands passed under the dominion of the Habsburg family, the ruler of Austria. Since then, the name Austria gradually was put into force over the entire ancient Carantania.

It is only their opinion, if the teachers of the University of Ljubljana in regards to Slovenian history represent another standpoint. It is a vision which was dictated in ex-Yugoslavia. Anyway, in heraldry, my research discovered a diverse historical image of Carantania (Austria), the symbol of which is just the Black Panther. Wikipedia says (as highlighted in green), in independent Slovenia, it is also used by “several nationalistic groups”. It is about young Slovenians, who are not “nationalistic”. They only express their national consciousness and they – in an independent Slovenia - are often attacked by the Serbian youth.

I warned the historians of the University of Ljubljana, when they engage in polemics with me, a certain civilized level of discussion should be maintained in a proper confrontation instead of fearing a face-to-face encounter. Please, if you reject my discoveries about the Black Panther, then I invite you to openly discuss the corresponding arguments. It is not an “argumentation” to quote articles, which the public is not able to understand. Their persuasiveness should be guaranteed by the academic titles and positions of their authors only. I expect an adequate response. --Marcos G. Tusar (talk) 23:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)