Talk:Billy Butlin

Photo

Found Some Public Domain Photographs of Billy in his Heyday on the Imperial War museum Homepage, If anyone has better Quality ones they would be appreciated. Also since his headstone is pretty distinct if anyone can upload photographs of it to commons they'd also be appreciated. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Sunday Herald Article

Discovered this source from the 1952 Sydney, Sunday Herald. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18509519 It has a lot of detail I've not seen anywhere else, I don't know if that makes it unreliable or not - if anyone has opinion It would be appreciated. It's good because it's a secondary source that backs up the biography at butlins-memories it does however have a few conflicts with [1] (his place of birth is the first) advice appreciateStuart.Jamieson (talk) 17:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Took decision to use judiciously where it doesn't conflict with other sources. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 23:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Frederick Devine

According to the cayman islands link, Billy's estate was in part to go to Frederick T Devine - seemingly Sheila's Son from before they married, I'm looking for sources that clarify the relationship with Billy if anyone can find one.Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 19:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Reading through the Trustees of the Billy Butlin Trust, it looks like Frederick Terry Devine relates to Sheila's brother (known just as Terry) who was the General Manager of Butlins Bognor in the 60's and went on to run Butlin Jersey Enterprises when Billy retired. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 22:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Some Tips

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead.
• Article is about a person, please add person data See WP:PDATA along with the required parameters to the article - see Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.
• Dablinks - Billy Butlin links to 2 different disambiguation pages. Nassau, Tiverton.-- . Shlok _{talk .} 06:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I think all three of those have been improved upon. The lead may require to be tightened up but I think it fairly summarises the article. Person Data added and DabLinks sorted. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 09:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• There are a number of run-together sentences, and possible typographic errors, such as 'late a scenic railway and dodgem car -- the first in Britain were added.', which should perhaps be 'Later, a scenic railway and dodgem cars--the first in Britain, were added.' Also the notation of '.5' for five pounds (if this is truly the case) is unfamiliar to readers outside Britain. I'm not personally sure how one would include a pound mark. 75.42.76.253 (talk) 20:43, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Fixed the first though the latter is showing as a pound mark for me. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Billy Butlin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: NtheP (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2011 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   Prose looks fine to me, there are a couple of grammatical errors to fix, mostly capitalisation e.g. "in his Autobiography" (Early life 2nd paragraph) and "Dolly's Niece" (Personal life, 2nd paragraph). Neither autobiography nor niece are proper nouns, there might be others that I've missed so dont't take these two as exhaustive. There are some spaces to be inserted between values and their current equivalents.

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

   Lead and overall layout are fine. I have some reservations about the layout of the references and some wording in the article, see below.

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   All sources are reference but see below and WP:FNNR

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   See below for instances where the source and the text don't agree

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   Almost there, one possibly non neutral example listed below

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Not sure File:Bishops Avenue south end - geograph.org.uk - 1324636.jpg adds anything to the article.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   File:Early Butlins Chalet.png could be better captioned. Currently it reads that it's listed in Skegness. Suggest something like "One of Butlin's original chalets at Skegness, now preserved and a listed building."

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   All issues addressed, Pass

Reference section

There are two publications, Scott & Dacre, that are referenced several times. If these are not going to be listed in a separate section e.g.=== Sources === then the full citation should be given the first time the book is used. As it is both Scott and Dacre are referenced several times before the full citation is seen. There also needs to be some consitency over the use of full stops and spaces in conjunction with page numbers p.X. p. X. p. X & p.X are all encountered.

Wording

• Lead
  • The last sentence of the lead I can't find a citation for this. It's the use of "unique" that needs to be supported. There are other holiday camps e.g. Warners, Pontins run along similar lines so why it Butlins unique?

 Done

• Early life
  • Why was his parent's marriange considered improper? Improper suggests not legal, is it that due to the difference in their backgrounds, it was not considered socially acceptable for a clergyman's son to marry a showman's daughter?
  • Army service. Scott doesn't say that he saw little action but that as a stretcher bearer he didn't fire a shot in anger. He may have seen plenty of action though.

 Done

• Early adulthood
  • "He purchased a hoopla stall from his uncle, discovering that he was quite successful at it." It here means running a stall not purchasing one? I'd suggest leaving out the words after the comma altogether.
  • "Different reports exist as to the nature of Butlin's success whether he accidentally sawed the corners off his Hoopla Blocks or did it deliberately" What is the significance of this? At first reading it sounds like a dodgy practice rather than what I think you mean which is the opposite and that it was a move to make things easy for players to win and therefore made him more popular. If different sources give different reasons then this needs to be explained in the text e.g. X says that ... and Y says ...

 Done

• The first holiday camps
  • "Butlin's next camp is considered to be Clacton." By whom? If there is a citation to support this it should inserted, otherwise I'd leave the sentence out and follow a chronological order by discussing Dovercourt next.

 Done

• World War II years
  • Harry Warner doesn't need to be in italics and is linked to the wrong Harry Warner. I don't think there is an article on the Warner who created Warner's Leisure so a redlink would be acceptable but is should be linked to the first occurence of the name which is in a preceding paragraph.
  • "Clacton was originally planned to be used as a POW camp, fortunately it was spared this indignity and was used as a training site for the pioneer corps." fortunately it was spared this indignity is not neutral language, I'd suggest "Clacton was originally planned to be used as a POW campbut instead was used as a training site for the Pioneer Corps."
  • He was awarded the MBE in 1944, link here, I think this needs to be mentioned in this section.

 Done

• Post war expansion
  • "Other than Clacton, the Butlins camps were relatively unscathed" Perhaps not totally relevant but what happened to Clacton?
  • Catholic Standard is a publication, the name can be italicised.
  • Conversely "Mystery Flight" should not be in italics or capitalised. It could also be linked to mystery tour.

 Done

• The 1960s
  • This section seems to end the history a bit abruptly. Reading the next section I see Butlin retired (the first time) in 1969, if that is the reason there is no discussion of the 1970s and later I think it ought to reflected somehow. You've done a good job in keeping the article focussed on Bultin and not the company so perhaps this section ought to end with something along the lines of "Butlin retired in 1969 and the Barry Island camp was the last opneing he was involved in"

 Done

• Later life
  • The last words of the final sentence "an eminent surgeon who had previously received the honour" are superfluous.

 Done

• Personal life
  • "Butlin found a legal loophole and sued Norah for divorce" What was the loophole? The UK Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 is very specific and there are only 5 grounds for divorce - adultery, unreasonable behaviour, desertion, 2 years separation with consent & 5 years separation. Butlin can only have got a divorce under one of these.  Done
  • Personal opinion, but the deaths and descendants of his children aren't relevant to the article. Leaving it at the three wives and each of the children he had with them would be enough.
    •  Half done To a degree they are relevant; in how his life was affected by them - Shirley's Birthday party was widely noted, as is Robert's inheritance of the company - there could be a bit more detail on how they have carried his legacy onwards (nearly all are/were members of the Water Rats/Ratlings and carry out the same charitable work through it that their father did.) and even the complications of his fortune (i.e; the legal cases about Laura Emily's inheritance.) but some better sources still need to be found to give this information better scope (and if enough sources are found it could be spun into it's own article) at the moment I feel this is the best compromise based on the sources we have. I have however tightened it up and tried to focus each child's mention on their father where possible and removed Bill Jr and Sandra's grandchildren where no source mentioning them is relevant to their grandfather. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 13:47, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
      • Fair enough - it looks tidier to me. Is there anything about why Shirely appears to have been cut out of his life?

Throughout there are monetary amounts quoted with current day equivalents. Is it possible to a) standardise the currency and b) use the same year? a) I appreciate that the use of dollars relates to the West Indies adventure but then there is the secondary calculation to be made of "how much is that in £?" use of one currency throughout would provide a better reference point. b) some are expressed in 2010 values and others 2011. You might want to consider as an option using the templates {{Inflation}} and {{Formatprice}}.

• The article already uses those templates but they required updating as they had been added in 2010. I'm reticent to convert historic prices without an exact exchange rate for the specific dates in question (or sources giving the same information in that other currency) but will look at giving all current prices in GBP at minimum. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 23:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)  Half done - historical prices remain in same currency as sources, but modern day inflation adjusted values are consistently in GBP.
  • I'm happy with the use of GBP as you now have it. I appreciate the unease about the exchange rate but having a mix of currencies is as uninformative.

Update 3 June

Looking pretty good. I've done a quick copy edit and noticed three more things that need clarifying;

1. Did Dovercourt open as a Butlins or not? If it did as the Kindertransport records suggest then the lead is wrong where it says that Clacton was second. If it didn't is there a source to confirm this?
2. Bognor. I assume the champagne was for volunteering to help stay and construct the camp? I think it needs to be made clear as it's possible that champagne was offered as compensation for moving to Clacton.
3. Tax position in Jersey. Why would he have had to pay so much tax if he had stayed in the UK. I know the UK tax regime can be punative at times but a rate over 100% needs to be explained.

There was also a deadlink but I've changed that for you as the new link doesn't change the statement it supports. NtheP (talk)

1. No one really knows and the few sources that do mention it tend to be speculatory as Scott is. The lead follows the majority of sources including Dacre that explicitly state Clacton was Butlin's second camp. Dovercourt is similarly considered to have always been a Warner camp by a majority of sources but these sources never give any detail on its early history. If I were to engage in some Original Research I would be suggesting that Dovercourt was subcontracted to Butlin by Warner and that the first year and later "in association" were a means of re-paying the initial construction - I also think that Butlin ran the Lido/funfair side of the site in partnership with Warner who ran the accomodation side; but I have to go with the sources as they stand until we unearth some more. This isn't unheard of in Butlins history as we keep unearthing sources about other Butlin camps/hotels that were otherwise unknown as we attempt to expand articles on those we do know - from the Thatched Barn in Borehamwood, to the Freshfields sites bought after Butlin retired. If you feel the Dovercourt paragraph should be rewritten to downplay his running of it (focusing on his construction and "association" with it) I'm all for that.

If the sources are unclear and/or contradictory then something along the lines of "the second camp Butlin opened was at Clacton (ref Dacre) however some sources e.g. Kindertranport (insert ref) records indicate that the camp at Dovercourt ... (Insert geographical detail and its use as a refugee camp) ..., that Butlin was involved in the construction and opening of, operated as a Butlins camp during the summer of 1938."

1.  Done
2. Not sure if there is an explanation, in Dacre he says that his accountant sat him down and told him his income tax and surtax would be 23 shillings for every pound earned (where there were only qctually 20 shillings to the pound) - The surtax rate in '69 was 55% at his income band and basic rate income tax was well over 40% so his rate could have been above 80% but I'm not sure if other taxes came into play - he certainly only mentions income and surtax. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps leave it simple then? e.g. "For tax reasons Butlin decided to become resident in Jersey where the tax regime was much less oppressive than that of the UK at the time. Had he remained in the UK he would have liable for tax at a rate of 115% of earnings against the 20% rate in Jersey. (ref Dacre)" PS I'm old enough and British so I remember pounds shillings and pence :-) if we can crack these two points I think we are there. NtheP (talk) 12:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

• • Both of those have been rewritten now, do you think that's it  Done ? Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 22:09, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
    • I do indeed. Article passed. Congratulations and thanks for your work on this. NtheP (talk) 08:23, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Water speed record

Coverage of Butlin's involvement with this is missing. He promised £5,000 bonuses to Donald Campbell for breaking the record. The structure of these bonuses, and the way that they were awarded for quite small increments over the previous record had a significant influence on Campbell's tactics, encouraging repeated small advances on the record, rather than a single large push (although these small-slice tactics eventually led to Campbell being written out of the Wikipedia land speed record article!). Campbell collected the bonus four times, which made a massive contribution to his personal finances, and his funding for further record attempts - Donald Campbell was never the rich man his father Malcolm had been.

There's a whole chapter entitled "The Butlin Years" in Tremayne's The Man Behind The Mask bio of Campbell. If I have time (which is unfortunately short) I might try to add a section. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Steam railway preservation

Butlin had a small, but significant, influence on the preservation of UK steam locomotives. He acquired a couple (?) of withdrawn locos in the '60s and placed them at the camps for purely decorative reasons. At least one was later restored to running service. As these were unusually large locos for the typical preservation society budget in the '60s, these were types that were otherwise unlikely to have been preserved. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, One of the major sources for the article (and other Butlin's related articles) is Peter Scott's "A History of the Butlin's Railways" where it mentions 6229 Duchess of Hamilton , 6233 Duchess of Sutherland , 6203 Princess Margaret Rose , 6100 Royal Scot, and 4 smaller steam engines ( Brighton, Martello, Knowle and Granville ) -But Scott says himself that Butlin didn't buy them for Preservation purposes and it wasn't Butlin himself but adoptive son Robert that gifted them to preservation societies after his father had retired. As such the preservation tale might sit better under Butlins than it would in Billy's biography. Stuart.Jamieson (talk)

I think there's scope for including them, and the water speed record, as an example of Butlin's personal interest in innovative marketing ploys. This wasn't steam preservation (they were only intended as static exhibits for small boys to marvel at), but it was an aspect of Butlin. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:05, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

That does sound reasonable, if we can get sources discussing Butlin's Intent in these activities. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 12:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Timing of launch

A big factor in the success of his first holiday camp was the new law that obliged employers to provide paid holidays. (See his memoirs). 86.183.206.77 (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

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