Talk:Billava

File:Narayana Guru.jpg Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:Narayana Guru.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests June 2011 What should I do?
	A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Ezhava and thiyya (bhillava) is completely distinct community nothing in comman. A thiyyan never give their girls to Ezava.

http://historicalleys.blogspot.ae/2012/02/thiyyas-of-malabar.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.107.228.33 (talk) 18:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Sourcing and weight

Huge chunks of this article are unsourced, and some of these have been tagged for at least three months. There is also a weighting issue because a large part of the article is devote to Narayana Guru and his temple, which already have there own articles and which refer to him only as an Ezhava, rather than being specifically of the Billava subcaste.

Since there have been some recent contributors, I'll leave things for now but unless some sources turn up fairly soon then it is likely that I will begin to prune the article. Obviously, I will attempt to find source myself before doing that but, please, do not rely on me to do something that others could do equally well. - Sitush (talk) 17:16, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I have just reverted an edit by User:Figleaf. It reinstated a couple of poor sources but - far worse - it reinstated large amounts of unsourced material and this included potential BLP violations in the "list of notables" section. This is beyond the pale: don't do it. - Sitush (talk) 21:04, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

The list comprised:

1. Janardhana Poojary, Former Union Minister of State for Finance, Sr. Member of Congress I Party
2. B.K. Hariprasad, (Congress MP),GEN SECRETARY AICC
3. Dr.Rajkumar, actor and singer in the Kannada film industry
4. Jayamala, Kannada film actress
5. Puneet Rajkumar, Kannada film actor
6. Raghavendra Rajkumar, Kannada film actor
7. Shivraj Kumar, aka. Hatrick Hero, Kannada film actor
8. Vijay Raghavendra, Kannada film actor
9. Mangalore Suman Talwar, hero in Telugu, Tamil and Malayalam films
10. Sheetal Mallar, Model
11. Ria, Dubai based TV anchor in ZEE TV and an actress in Malayalam Movie Casanova With Mr Mohanlal
12. Vinay Kumar Sorake, former Congress MP,secretary AICC
13. S Bangarappa,Ex CM of Karnataka
14. Mamata Poojary Gold medalist at Asian Games
15. Akshatha Poojary Commonwealth Unequipped Bench-press Champion
16. see notables of ezhava community(billavas from kerala)

I'll explain the problems in a few minutes. - Sitush (talk) 22:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Items 1 - 10 above all have (generally pretty poor) articles, but their status as Billavas is not sourced either here nor in those articles. Item 11 is linked to an invalid article and the only disambig available is for a singer from New Zealand, so this person is not only unsourced but may also be non-nostable.

Items 12 and 13 have neither articles nor sources, and item 16 makes no sense. If the latter was intended to refer to List of Ezhavas then that achieves little, since that list does not specifically indicate any Billavas.

The other two names are sourced, but the source is an atrocious one and in any case does not mention their Billava status. - Sitush (talk) 22:08, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

The reverts were in good faith since I know that these are true information. However I want to step aside and not provide further edits to this article and some other knowledgeable member make the appropriate corrections. Figleaf (talk) 22:14, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Another part of the revert related to the use of this as a source to support statements about garadi. That source is an ex-patriate Billava community organisation: such things are not usually considered reliable except as sources for information about themselves (ie: about the organisation). The 27.* IPs were therefore within their rights to replace the citation with a cite request. - Sitush (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Figleaf, and anyone else who may come along, please note that it is insufficient for you to "know" something. What you know may be true but Wikipedia requires that statements are verifiable using independent reliable sources. - Sitush (talk) 22:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Sure, I agree. However some of the references are hard to to link to like temple records etc. Here is some references for you: http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/20/stories/2009032053980400.htm ; Art and Architecture of Indian Temples by S. K. Ramachandra Rao ISBN 0836431154 for information about garadi. Will add more. Figleaf (talk) 22:30, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

References

Edit warring/unsourced material

There has been quite a bit of edit warring over content disagreements and over the addition of unsourced material over the past few days, so I have protected the article from editing for a period of 1 week to give the relevant editors some time to discuss their desired changes here and seek to achieve a consensus. In the meantime, uncontroversial changes can be requested using the {{Edit protected}} template -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:26, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

It looks like semi-protection should be ok now, so I've backed it off to that - if any IPs want to make any changes, please make a request using {{Edit semi-protected}} -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Subsection moved from the article

I have just removed the following from the article

The Malayalee Billavas are the indigenous inhabitants concentrated in an area between north of the Chandragiri in Kasaragod district, south of the Kalyanpura (in Hejamamdi) and – from west to east – between the Arabian Sea and the Sullia region. The community is divided into eight illams; they trace their origins to Amruthamani (who was born out of Shiva's grace) and seven others born to the Saptamathas through the Lord's divine blessings. This means that Thiyas are the progeny of Shiva. Marriage within the same illam (sagotra) is taboo. They speak the Malayalam language.

It needs sourcing before it is reinstated, and I am struggling to achieve this. Please note: I am not saying that there is no such group of people etc, merely that at present it is proving problematic to verify and it has been tagged as such for a while now. - Sitush (talk) 18:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Also removed is

Although the ruling deity of the Malayalee Billava community is Bhagavathi, there are also temples dedicated to Vishnumurti, Wayandu Daiva and Korathi; the latter two are believed to be incarnations of Shiva and Shakti, respectively. Chaitanyas such as Kallurutti, Panjurli, Guliga and Naagadevan are forms of worship in the community, and Kola, Thamblia, Kaliyatha and so forth are performed regularly to invoke the gods' blessings. There are 18 important Bhagavathi Kshetras, in addition to many Tharavadu shrines throughout the Kasaragod, Mangalore and Udupi districts.

for the same reason. - Sitush (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

---

Sitush by what based you deleted above information? this a just a myth which this community believe they originated from Shiva. in India many tribe carring such myth like surya vamsham rised from SUN, chanda Vamsham raced from Chandra. as a myth what worng you find in this.

Sitush I know you, that you were making lot of treble when thiyya try to create we wikki page for their own. all our people reach (thiyya) one opinion that you are a paid woker for SNDP and Ezava, you want club Ezava with thiyya so that you were used your admin right against getting seperate thiyya page for thiyya. now here you trying to delete all information which leading billava connected to thiyya. just because of thiyya and bhillava welcome Sree Narayana guru to their land now Ezava trying to hijach thiyya billava heritage on their name for that they want try to wipe out the name Thiyya from kerala Goverment record. after massive opposition from thiyya now you here with same sake

Billava admin please go though below wicki edit page and realze this admin guys aim. try to get other Wikki admin and defence him other wise your wikki page will be usless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Irajeevwiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nair#Hello_even_we_.28_Thiyyaa.29_are_facing_the_same_problem..please_vist_http:.2F.2Fen.wikipedia.org.2Fwiki.2FTalk:Ezhava — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.51.13.108 (talk) 17:13, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Lead image

I agree that the image would be embarrassing to a modern Billava. I myself have a few Billava friends who come from educated middle-class families, who would be plain embarrassed to see the image. However, it's a free image and there is no free alternative equivalent to replace it. So, the image will stay as the lead image unless Nithin can provide a good quality image of a modern Billava family dressed in traditional garb and have it released under the "Creative-Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0" license. Joyson Prabhu ^{Holla at me!} 10:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

The caption clearly dates the image to 1909 or earlier. No-one in their right mind would think that it represents modern Billavas. It has some historical merit and is similar to images in the infoboxes of quite a few other community articles. It may be moved at some point but I see no need to remove it. If it causes embarrassment then that it unfortunate but such a reaction probably says more about those who are embarrassed than it does about the image - Wikipedia is not censored. - Sitush (talk) 10:28, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I was not proposing that it would necessarily be removed. Joyson Prabhu ^{Holla at me!} 10:43, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I realise that. I am expecting some visitors to this talk page soon and am making my point in the hope that this will forestall the type of long and acrimonious debate to which I have become accustomed in circumstances such as this. - Sitush (talk) 10:45, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

A thought: what if we move the picture to the Traditional occupations section, where it would also sit nicely? I say this in part because I have a fairly well known dislike of infoboxes in caste articles and so anything that makes them smaller is good enough for me. It would also enable the image of the linguistic map to sit in the correct section without moving it to the left of the article (something else that I dislike, unless it is to ensure that a portrait etc faces "inwards"). Of course, these positional things are entirely subjective but perhaps it would ameliorate the situation and make me happier at the same time! - Sitush (talk) 15:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Subjectively speaking, i feel that the infoboxes make the articles look better. On another note, both Konkani and Marathi are Indo-Aryan languages. Marathi is only spoken in Belgaum and Uttara Kannada. There is no native Marathi speaking community in the areas which historically constituted South Canara. Also, i think that the linguistic map is unnecessary. Instead, you could create a map highlighting the areas which the Billavas are native to. Good work revamping the article! It should make an interesting read once you have finished work on it. Joyson Prabhu ^{Holla at me!} 15:51, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not (yet!) saying that we should remove the infobox, but we can move the picture out of it. The language issue surprised me, also: I will check the source. The linguistic map was simply the best thing that I could find. If someone can find a better map - even just a normal geographic map that includes the linguistically important Netravati river - then that would be fine by me, and in fact it is what I was looking for when I stumbled across the thing that I used. I am not great with images and certainly am not capable of creating something from scratch. - Sitush (talk) 16:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, in that case you could make a request for its creation on the village pump on Commons. The Mysore tribes and castes, Volume 2 (1935) by Diwan Bahadur L. Krishna Anantha Krishna Iyer and Diwan Bahadur Hebbalalu Velpanuru Nanjundayya states:

"The Billoru or Billavas are a Tulu-speaking caste of toddy drawers, mostly found in South Canara, Manjarabad, Tirthahalli, and Mudigere. They speak Canarese in Mysore. The word Billava signifies bowmen, and the name was applied to the..."

I am not aware of any place called Manjarabad, although there is a Manjarabad Fort just outside Sakleshpur (Sakleshpura) in Hassan district. Joyson Prabhu ^{Holla at me!} 16:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I am very wary of using British Raj sources for caste distribution etc. They frequently changed their definitions, often admitted that they were confused (there is a fantastic quote from Ibbetson about this) and they were so compartmentalised that often they ignored populations in adjacent areas simply because they fell just outside the geographic remit of their writing. From the 1880s or thereabouts, they were also affected by Sanskritisation, with people claiming all sorts of things in census returns etc in an attempt to boost their social position etc. Best not to be too specific, I think, if we are relying on pre-Independence analyses. Or even post-Independence ones if they are, for example, written by the Anthropological Survey of India - their works rely a lot on Raj stuff and often do not even acknowledge that they have done so, even when entire sentences etc have simply been copied. - Sitush (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I know! Gazzetteers in particular must be used with great care. But what are we to do when this is the case, and the new works rehash the same old info? There is no alternative. Joyson Prabhu ^{Holla at me!} 17:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

All we can do is keep it fairly vague and/or be absolutely explicit that the info comes from source X and that there is always doubt about these Ray and Raj-based things. You will see that there is already a footnote that explains some of the issues regarding Thurston/Iyer etc but I am hoping to reduce reliance on those sources as I go along. I've done a fair amount of work recently at Herbert Hope Risley and articles relating to other Raj ethnographers/administrators & hope in time to be able to draw on that in order to resolve some of these issues. - Sitush (talk) 18:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I have boldly moved the image. There seems little point in risking edit warring etc when the article comes off protection. - Sitush (talk) 15:02, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Tweaking

I've got a couple of queries about this series of tweaks. First, though, I am glad that someone appears to understand the dashed dashes situation because I can never get my head round it!

The tweak includes adding the Protestant denomination when that has already been stated (the Basel Mission were the first Protestant mission in the area, but not necessarily the first Christian mission). That is just an issue of repetition but I am more concerned about changing "The Billava community suffered ritual discrimination under the Brahmanic system – of which the caste system in Kerala was perhaps the most extreme example – until the twentieth century." so that it is now "The Billava community suffered ritual discrimination under the Brahmanic system—of which the caste system in Kerala was perhaps the most extreme example until the twentieth century."

It might be a little subtle, but the new version does not mean the same thing as the original version did. The original says that the Billavas suffered oppression until the 20th C and notes as an aside that the worst place for caste oppression was Kerala, where of course there were some Billavas. The new version says that the caste system of Kerala was the most extreme example of the Brahmanic system until the 20th C, which is true enough but leaves things dangling regarding the Billavas themselves. Does this make sense? - Sitush (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

It's fine to add that they were the first Protestant mission in the area. If you could find a reliable source stating it, you could add "Until the 20th century, the Billava community suffered ritual discrimination under the Brahmanic system—of which the caste system in Kerala was perhaps the most extreme example—until the twentieth century." Also, terms found in Merriam-Websters need not be italicized. Joyson Prabhu ^{Holla at me!} 18:33, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

That was a wise move, given that the article was expanded to you. Someone could have argued that the image was more appropriate in the Traditional Occupations section. It sucks that there is no lead image, but i will try to find a suitable modern equivalent and upload it on Commons. Joyson Prabhu ^{Holla at me!} 15:30, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 December 2012

Billawa community is totally disagree with the maner of showing in sudras. Martial arts academies of the Billavas are known as garadi. Reading, writing and instruction in archery and the martial arts were the main activities of garadi – similar to Kalarippayattu, which is practised by the Īḻavar community in Kerala . Since billava means bravery and arrow which links with soldier and belongs to ksathriya community. Over a period of different kings rules on tulunadu they were not identified properly.

115.113.175.180 (talk) 08:58, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The information is verified by a reliable source in the article. Please provide other reliable sources if you wish to add this other information. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 December 2012

Dear sir,

Pls read the page 288 to 295 link [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanillin1 (talk • contribs) 10:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

In Tulunadu [once well known as Toulava Rajya ], or in present Dakshina kannada / Udupi district lion’s share of population is Billavas or Biruwas. Poojary or Baida or Billava are the different names of the same generation. The term Biruwa comes from Bhargava who was preached by Maharshi Brigu. Parashurama the son of Jamadagni was considered to be the leader of Bhargava Community. Toulava Rajya or Tulunadu is still often remembered as Parashurama Shrusti [created by Parashurama].

It is said that Tulunadu is gifted as reclamation land by Parashurama. Bhargava was known to have established the human race on this land for the first time and hence first inhabitants were Bhargavas or the followers or students of the Parashurama. Thus, surnames derive from Educational tradition or from ancestral tradition like Vishwamitra gotra or Goutama gotra or Bharadwaja gotra or Kashyapa gotra.

Pls note, you have wrongly mentioned billava as sudras. If you take present reference billava accepted for OBC which is accepted by so many general class such as kshatriya,vaisya etc. Hence you are requested to do billava page unprotected. All Billava community fully unaccept the way wikipedia shown them in the site.

Pls note, as per tulunadu history billavas are — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.113.175.180 (talk) 11:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes sanil you are right. Real information about billava community was different than wikipedia billava page. But the admins are not accepting the updated information by asking reliable sources.Even by giving some other sources to refer about the billwa(Poojary)community, they were not ascepting that reliable sources.Sir please don't make this page as edit-protected. Lot of imported information about the community need to be updated. We think you were making discrimination by protecting billawa page only, While other community in the tulunadu not have the edit protected wiki page. See that their community informations are regularly updated. But the billava page can't update its current actions. So please try make this page good and loyal. Read several airticles about billava(Poojary). You were mainly taken airticles of Iyer and Gosh. Read some other airticles about karnataka, and tulu naadu and karavali history. You will get lots of points to note about the community. Nikhil Poojari (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Edit request on 8 January 2013

Pls read the page 288 to 295 of link [2]. You are requested to do unprotect of page, since most of the information is baised and shown billava image and photo in wrong manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanillin1 (talk • contribs) 10:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

It seems very unfare, you are showing other similar community article in unprotect page such as bunts,mogaveera whereas billava with protected page with unaccepted data by billava community. Pls do delete or unprotect so that reliable resource would be replaced, else you are making misrepresantation of billava community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.113.175.180 (talk) 07:38, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Kindly unprotect the page of billava, article does not contain any proper reference. Present scenario of billava also not shown in shudras.

The coastal regions of Karnataka and Kerala had a very active martial-arts tradition, and many Billava families still continue this tradition. This helped them develop a community identity. They built Garadis similar to Kalaris in Kerala in honour of their folk heroes Koti and Chennayya. The Tulu term Garadi is derived from the Kannada word Garodi, which means “gymnasium”. These garadis became major religious and martial-arts centres of the Billavas throughout the coastal areas of Karnataka. Though this tradition was common to their equivalent caste in Kerala, due to rigid caste rules they lost their independent religious/martial-arts traditions. Maliyali Billawas Kula (god) is Baghavathi. The Billavas believe in ancestral worship. Billavas mostly worship various Daivas(Spirits) like Kodamandaye, Panjurli, Jumadi, Jarandaye, Kallurti, Koti Chennaya, Devi Baidedi, Dhumavati, Pilichandi, Bobbarye, etc, apart from puranic gods. They have a distinct culture and customs. Women are considered to be ritually polluted at the time of their first menstrual cycle and also during the period of pregnancy and childbirth. Billava Constitution

Billava’s have a caste council or Kula Panchayati which consists of two headman of the village. All disputes are settled by this council, and if the decision is not accepted, he will be deprived of the privileges of worshiping in the temple.

Marriage used to be performed by the Gurikara (heads of the local Billava Community). Family disputes used to be settled by calling a meeting of the Gurikaras. With urbanization and adoption of vedic rituals and introduction of modern justice system the institution of Gurikara is fast becoming extinct, though it still exists in the interior villages. Billava Baris (Surname) Common surnames in the Billavan community are Amin, Anchan, Baidya, Baishya, Banan, Bangera, Gujran, Jathann (or Jathanna), Karkera, Kirodian, Kotian, Kukian (or Kukiyan), Palan (or Palanna), Poojari (or Poojary), Salian, Sanil, Suvarna, Talwar and Upiyan. “Billava” is used as a surname only in Kundapura Taluk. Poojary/Poojari

Poojary /Poojari means “worshipper”. In the past the Poojary played an important role in Bhuta Kola (Nema), a practice seen amongst tribal communities in Tulunadu. This subgroup is responsible for building temples and other places of worship, and their worship is known as poojas.

Food Habits Boiled Rice and Fish Curry used to be the main staple diet. Kori-Rotti(Chicken curry and roasted pancake) is another delicacy during week ends. It is a must for entertaining guests.

Billava Marriage Customs and Ceremonies A few days before the wedding the maternal uncle of the bride or the ‘Gurkara’ ties a jewel on her neck, and a pandal is erected, and decorated by the caste washerman (madival) with clothes of different colours.

If the Girl is an adult, the bride has to undergo a purificatory ceremony a day or two before marriage (dhara) day. A few women, usually Relatives of the girl, go to a tank, pond or well near a bhutasthana or garadi, and bring water thence in earthenware pots. The water is poured over the head of the girl, and she bathes.

On the wedding day, the bride and bridegroom are seated on two planks placed on the dais. The Barber arranges the various articles, such as lights, rice, flowers, betel leaves and arecanuts, and a vessel filled with water, all of which are required for the ceremonial. He Joins the hands of the contracting couple, and their parents, or the headman, places the nose-screw of the bride on their hands, and pour the dhare water over them. This is the binding part of the ceremony which is called kai (hand) Dhare.

A Billava does not marry his sister’s daughter or mother’s sister’s daughter. He can marry his paternal aunt’s or maternal uncle’s daughter. Two sisters can be taken in marriage simultaneously or at different times. Two brothers can marry two sisters.

Marriage and Bari System (Sept or gotra system) The community follows the endogamous and exogamous system of marriage, like any other Hindu community, a unique system which is not followed anywhere else in the world except China. There are a number of baris among the Billava Community

Ordinarily the marriage is performed in boy’s place. A palm shed would be constructed in the front of the house. Preparation for the marriage ceremony would be done by member of barber community. He would place two Chairs place for the bride and bridge grooms to sit and would place folded clothes in a rectangle shape around the chairs for them to carry out Saptapadi.

Re-Marriage Marriage of widows was permitted but the wedding ritual in such cases was simplified. An amended version of the ceremony was also used for situations where an illegitimate child might otherwise result: the father had to marry the pregnant woman in such circumstances.

Death The Billava dead are usually cremated, although burial occurs in some places, and there is a ritual pollution period observed at this time also.The Billava community is one of a few in India that practice posthumous marriage.

Inheritance The Billavas practised the matrilineal system of inheritance known as Aliya Kattu or Aliya Santana. Ghosh describes that this system entailed that “men transmit their immovable property, not to their own children, but matrilineally, to their sister’s children.”

115.113.175.180 (talk) 11:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but your claim is wrong. You say that the article has no sources, but it has more than a dozen (some are duplicates). Furthermore, you're being self-contradictory: the above info you posted isn't sourced at all. If you know of reliable sources, then we can discuss adding or changing info, but without sources we can't make any of the changes you suggest. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:52, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Can u pls provide sources of billava article, which is never agreed by any of billava community member. Do you have any significant confirmation from any of billava community of india/out of india.

You are self-contradictory by providing such information in wikipedia without any reliable sources, Kindly check the billava community status in society, no reference are made for billava are sudras. In such case billava community should have been enjoyed the facility of SC/ST quota.

Due to unreliable information given in this site, reader will misguide and do not belive the truth of article which are posted for other site.

Below reference are given by billava community, if you need to cross verify kindly visit any of billava community trust and confirm.

Pls unprotect the information given billava site, so that correct information posted.

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.113.175.180 (talk) 04:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Please see my response above: you didn't provide any reliable sources, and the article has lots of sources in it. If you have specific problems with one of the sources, please explain. And your claim that the info you posted is "given by the Billava community" doesn't help us. Wikipedia does not allow information to be added based on personal knowledge--it must be verified in reliable sources. I'm sorry, but if you don't have sources, your info cannot be added.

Finally, when you add new comments, don't erase old ones, and put new points at the end of a section, not the beginning. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:07, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Billava and Social Status

This article is a complete disaster in terms of sourcing. I've tagged a lot of stuff & there have been some maintenance tags at the top of the thing for many months now. You are requested to pls unprotect and allow to change the page.

I propose to concentrate initially on the Origins section, where there is a weird mix of " billava inferior to bunts.

pls read page no. 25 of link [3], read "Next to Brahaman and jain are the bunt, the billava and mogavira caste in that order.

Pls read page no.26 " Bunts apart from jain and section of billava followed the system of aliasanthana property inheritance."

Further, you are requested to delete billava men photo and delete following para in the article.

"The Billava community is one of a few in India that practice posthumous marriage. Others that do so include the Badagas, Komatis and the Todas.[12]". The Billavas were among the many communities to be excluded from the Hindu temples of Brahmins[14] and they traditionally worship spirits in a practice known as Bhuta Kola. S. D. L. Alagodi wrote in 2006 of the South Canara population that "Among the Hindus, a little over ten per cent are brahmins, and all the others, though nominally Hindus, are really propitiators or worshippers of tutelary deities and bhutas or demons."

"Bhuta Kola is a cult practised by a large section of Tulu Nadu society, ranging from landlords to untouchables, and the various hierarchical strands all have their place within it. While those at the top of this hierarchical range provide patronage, others such as the Billava provide the practical services of officiating and tending the shrines, while those at the bottom of the hierarchy enact the rituals, which include aspects akin to the regional theatrical art forms known as Kathakali and Yakshagana.[23] For example, the pooja rituals include ancestral spirits-dancing, performed by the lower class Paravar[nb 3] or Naike,[19] and the Bunts who relied upon the Poojary to officiate.[18] There was a significance in the Bunt landholdings and the practice of Bhuta worship. As the major owners of land, the Bunts held geographic hubs around which their tenant farmers and other agricultural workers were dispersed. The Billavas, being among the dispersed people, were bonded to their landlords by the necessities of livelihood and were spread so that they were unable to unite in order to assert authority. Furthermore, the Bhuta belief system also provided remedies for social and legal issues: it provided a framework for day-to-day living.[26] Thurston noted that Baidya was a common name among the community, as was Poojary. He was told that this was a corruption of Vaidya, meaning a physician.[16]"

"A Billava toddy tapper, ca. 1909 Heidrun Brückner describes the Billavas of the nineteenth century as "frequently small tenant farmers and agricultural labourers working for Bunt landowners."[26] Writing in 1930, Iyer described the community as being involved mostly in toddy tapping, although they also had involvements in agriculture and in some areas were so in the form of peasant tenant landholders known as raiyats.[14] This was echoed in a report of the Indian Council of Agricultural Research of 1961, which said that "The Billavas are concentrated mostly in South Kanara district. Though toddy tappers by profession, they rely mostly on cultivation. They are generally small landowners or lessees ...".[27] According to Ghosh, "By tradition, [the Billavas] are also associated with the martial arts and the single most famous pair of Tuluva heroes, the brothers Koti-Chennaya, are archetypal heroes of the caste who symbolize the often hostile competition between the Billavas and the Bunts."[28] Neither Thurston nor Iyer make any reference to this claim."

Social changes The Billava community suffered ritual discrimination under the Brahmanic system—of which the caste system in Kerala was perhaps the most extreme example until the twentieth century. They were, however, allowed to live in the same villages as Brahmins.[14] Some Billavas had seen the possibility of using religion as a vehicle for the social advancement of their community, as the Paravars had previously attempted in their conversion to Christianity.[30] The British had wrested the region from the control of Tipu Sultan in 1799, as a consequence of the Fourth Anglo-Mysore War, and in 1834 the Christian Basel Mission arrived in Mangalore. These evangelists were among the first to take advantage of a relaxation of rules that had prevented non-British missionaries from working in India, and theirs was the first Protestant mission of any nationality in the area.[31] They initially condemned the caste system because it was an inherent part of the Hindu religion and therefore must be wrong, but they came to see the divisions caused by it as being evil in their own right and took to undermining it as a matter of social justice.[32] They considered the stratification of the caste system as being contrary to Christian values, which proclaimed that all were equal in the eyes of God.[33] These missionaries had some success in converting native people, of which those converted from among the Billavas formed the "first and largest group".[32] Brückner describes the Billavas as being "the strongest group among the converts" and that, along with the Bunts, they were "the mainstays of the popular local religion, and the mission was probably induced by this target group to occupy itself with its practices and oral literature."[26] Alagodi notes that the ... motives for conversion were not always purely religious. Support against oppression by landlords and money lenders, hope for better social standards, education for their children, chances of employment in the mission's firms, the prospect of food provision, clothing, shelter and a decent state of life—such motives might have contributed to their decision for baptism. The chief motive, however, seems to have been a revolt against the social order dominated by demons or bhutas. The conversion offered them forgiveness of sin and liberation from the social conditions that would hold them back if they remained in the Hindu fold. ... Many people thought that the God of the missionaries was greater and more powerful than the demons.[34] However, the conversion of Billavas to Christianity did not always run smoothly. The Basel missionaries were more concerned with the quality of those converted than with the quantity. In 1869 they rejected a proposition that 5000 Billavas would convert if the missionaries would grant certain favours, including recognition of the converts as a separate community within the church and also a dispensation to continue certain of their traditional practices. The missionaries took the view that the proposition was contrary to their belief in equality and that it represented both an incomplete rejection of the caste system and of Hindu practices. Alagodi has speculated that if the proposition had been accepted then "Protestant Christians would have been perhaps one of the largest religious communities in and around Mangalore today."[33] A further barrier to conversion proved to be the Billava's toddy tapping occupation: the Basel Mission held no truck with alcohol, and those who did convert found themselves economically disadvantaged, often lacking both a job and a home.[35] This could apply even if they were not toddy tappers: as tenant farmers or otherwise involved in agriculture, they would lose their homes and the potential beneficence of their landlords if they converted.[26] The Mission attempted to alleviate this situation by provision of work, principally in factories that produced tiles and woven goods.[35][nb 5] Nireshvalya Arasappa—described by Kenneth Jones as "one of the few educated Billavas"—was one such person who looked to conversion from Hinduism as a means to advancement during the nineteenth century. Having initially examined the opportunities provided by Christian conversion, Arasappa became involved with the Brahmo Samaj movement in the 1870s and he arranged for Brahmo missionaries to meet with his community. The attempt met with little success: the Billavas were suspicious of the Brahmo representatives, who wore western clothing and spoke in English[30] whereas the Basel Missionaries had studied the local languages and produced a copy of the New Testament in both Tulu and Kannada.[2] Kudroli Gokarnanatheshwara Temple — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanillin1 (talk • contribs) 11:36, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Please add below para which have reliable reference page no.159 as [4]

Tulunad was administratively cohesive when it formed part of the Madras Presidency, but the recognisation of Indian states in 1956-57 disrupted this with the accession of Kasargod Taluk in the south west of Kerala. The remainder of the rea joined Karnataka. Dialect Variation The Netravati river divides Tulunad into two equal parts, a division that has produced district north and south dialect areas. Several Phonological and morphological isoglosses coincide with this division, and are discussed later. There are also several social and cultural differences between the two divisions. As a result of closer contracts now being established across the Netravari, however, these differences appear to be gradually diminishing.

A preliminary survey of this network is reported in D.N.S. Bhat (1970) and detailed research based on data for the tulu lexicon project appears in Padmanabha (1990). There are in each area several caste groups which distinguish primarily among three major division: Brahmin (Sivalli and Shiva), common ( including such caste as Bunts,Billava,gowda,Mogavira) and the rest (Harijans and tribals).

You are requested to delete below para, which are contradictory to above reference.

While those at the top of this hierarchical range provide patronage, others such as the Billava provide the practical services of officiating and tending the shrines, while those at the bottom of the hierarchy enact the rituals, which include aspects akin to the regional theatrical art forms known as Kathakali and Yakshagana.[23] For example, the pooja rituals include ancetral spirits - dancing, performed by the Paravar[nb 3] or Naike,[19] and the Bunts who relied upon the Poojaris to officiate.[18]

There was a significance in the Bunt landholdings and the practice of Bhuta worship. As the major owners of land, the Bunts held geographic hubs around which their tenant farmers and other agricultural workers were dispersed. The Billavas, being among the dispersed people, were bonded to their landlords by the necessities of livelihood and were spread so that they were unable to unite in order to assert authority. Sanillin1 (talk) 06:33, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

For the love of...read what I wrote elsewhere. Once you decide to start learning policies, then we can talk. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

This article is a complete disaster in terms of sourcing. I've tagged a lot of stuff & there have been some maintenance tags at the top of the thing for many months now. You are requested to pls unprotect and allow to change the page.

I propose to concentrate initially on the Origins section, where there is a weird mix of " billava inferior to bunts.

pls read page no. 25 of link [5], read "Next to Brahaman and jain are the bunt, the billava and mogavira caste in that order.

Pls read page no.26 " Bunts apart from jain and section of billava followed the system of aliasanthana property inheritance." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanillin1 (talk • contribs) 09:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Billava Language

Please add below para in langauage as per reference of page 159 of [6]

Tulunad was administratively cohesive when it formed part of the Madras Presidency, but the recognisation of Indian states in 1956-57 disrupted this with the accession of Kasargod Taluk in the south west of Kerala. The remainder of the rea joined Karnataka. Dialect Variation

A preliminary survey of this network is reported in D.N.S. Bhat (1970) and detailed research based on data for the tulu lexicon project appears in Padmanabha (1990). There are in each area several caste groups which distinguish primarily among three major division: Brahmin (Sivalli and Shiva), common ( including such caste as Bunts,Billava,gowda,Mogavira) and the rest (Harijans and tribalsSanillin1 (talk) 07:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

No, because that's an exact copy of the source. We can never copy the exact words. So let's see what we can summarize...well, as far as I can tell the only thing it says about the Billava is that they were one of what Padmanabha called the "common" castes in Tulunad. The other info is about the region, and thus not relevant to this article (though you may want to consider adding it to Tulu Nadu if it isn't already there). I suppose it just be added to the lead, such as changing the second sentence to read "They are found traditionally in Karnataka (such as Tulu Nadu)<add ref here> and some parts of Kerala..." There's not really another section about their location in general, so I don't see any good place to put it, and it's not important enough to get it's own section. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Billava with Origin reference

Dear sir,

You are requested to delete the page and upload the billava details as posted in link [7]. The abovesaid link is with reliable sources and accepted by all.

It seems some people are targetting morality of billava community by completely de-moralizing and presenting them in wrong manner. . Sanillin1 (talk) 04:57, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

The above source is an open wiki. It's not even vaguley a reliable source. Please stop. Either read about and follow our policies, our focus your editing on that other copy-cat site. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:52, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Inspite of providing proper reference , you have not unprotected billava site. You may refer page np.151 and 244 [8]for collecting more information about bants and billava.

once again request you to kindly do unprotect of billava, so that more correct agrreable reference would be added and analysed.Sanillin1 (talk) 08:43, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

First, please put new comments at the bottom, not the top; this is how all Wikipedia talk pages are organized. Second, that source is already used extensively in this article. What specifically do you think needs to be changed? Do not list out the entire article again. Start with one specific sentence or a couple of sentences, and explain. And please stop asking for the article to be unprotected: it is because of editors such as yourself, who want to replace the contents with unverified/unsourced claims that we keep the article protected. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:31, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Billava with Origin reference

Pls refer page of 151 of bants and 243 to 247 of billava of link [9] and link [10].

You have taken reference of Mysore tribes and castes of LKA Iyer for billava (book does not have full page, some of pages are omitted), whereas LKA Iyer reference were not mentioned with bants article.

You are once again requested do not publish any fabricated matter as following para . Further bcoz of such reference given by wikipedia author, students are not allowed to refer wikipedia article.

Kindly read above attached link, which summarize bants and billava communities do have faith in bhuta kola and both were claiming the origin from warrior clan and independent with thier activities in tulunadu. Below para states billavas are inferior and performing bhuta kola to bants, which is not correct.This shows some group manupulate the origin of history.

Disputed para: Bhuta Kola is a cult practised by a large section of Tulu Nadu society, ranging from landlords to untouchables, and the various hierarchical strands all have their place within it. While those at the top of this hierarchical range provide patronage, others such as the Billava provide the practical services of officiating and tending the shrines, while those at the bottom of the hierarchy enact the rituals, which include aspects akin to the regional theatrical art forms known as Kathakali and Yakshagana.[23] For example, the pooja rituals include ancestral spirits - dancing, performed by the Paravar[nb 3] or Naike,[19] and the Bunts who relied upon the Poojaris to officiate.[18]

There was a significance in the Bunt landholdings and the practice of Bhuta worship. As the major owners of land, the Bunts held geographic hubs around which their tenant farmers and other agricultural workers were dispersed. The Billavas, being among the dispersed people, were bonded to their landlords by the necessities of livelihood and were spread so that they were unable to unite in order to assert authority. Furthermore, the Bhuta belief system also provided remedies for social and legal issues: it provided a framework for day-to-day living.Sanillin1 (talk) 06:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I do agree with sanillin1 and given good reference link, still you have not changed..... You need to unprotect this site, since all bogus information updated.120.60.8.179 (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Look, I don't understand what you two are complaining about. The claim that they were lower than the Bunts is directly sourced to what is definitely a reliable source. And the Links you gave are long, unclear, and I don't specifically see where they refute the claim. Could you provide a specific quotation from the Castes and tribes of southern India claiming Billava did not consider themselves inferior to Bunts? If there is a clear statement to that effect, then we'll include both opinions, as required by WP:NPOV. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Dear friend,

Pls refer page of 151 of bants and 243 to 247 of billava of link [11] and link [12].

Kindly read page 151 of Castes and tribes of southern India states as follows: Most of bants are hindus by region, ranks as sudras, but about ten thousanad are jains.

and page no. 244 states as follows:

The derivation of the word billava, as commonly accepted in the district, is that it is a contraction of billinavaru, bowmen, and that the name was given was the men of the caste were formerly largely employed by bowmen by the ancient native rulers of the district.

If you read the wikipedia page of similar caste such as bunts and mogaveers, the reference of billava are hardly seen in that site. you are requested to delete the reference of bunts in billava page.

Further,Above defination shows long ago billava were employed as bowmen and they were warrior class, whereas you have written baised statement in billave article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanillin1 (talk • contribs) 09:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Can anybody inform me, how to file complain of user id Qwyrxian|talk]]) After providing above proper reference still editor not replied or corrected the site billava. It seems editor is purposely giving wrong & biased information in billava article. Kindly help anybody to resolve the issues.Sanillin1 (talk) 10:21, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I can tell you. I recommend that you go to the WP:ANI thread that I opened about your conduct (WP:ANI#Sanillin1. ANI is the page used to bring matters to the attention of administrators. I've already brought your behavior to that board, but you can certainly use the same space to bring up your concerns about my behavior. One small note, however: I wasn't actually the person who was reverting you here today. I would have, if I had seen it first, but it was another editor. This is because you cannot simply remove well-sourced information just because you don't like it. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:25, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake, the ANI's already been closed and you're topic banned from this page. Well, if you see the comment here, probably the next best step is for you to ask at User Talk:JamesBWatson, who is the admin who placed the topic ban. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 July 2013

there are in many places quotes are included.whether these quotes are correct or not is not sure.there are many places where attempts to defame the caste can be seen.its because billava caste is the largest caste and many castes such as bhrahmins does not like them as billavars never considered or accepted that bhrahmins have any greatness. there are many places where billavars attachment with martial arts are mentioned and each place the author have taken additional precuation to say that these mention by thurson and others were not supported with any reference or evidance. but there are many evidance.the sangam literature gives a clear picture of the social status and importance of villar ,who were generally soldiers and brave warriors ,strength of a king is assertained by the number of villar warriors who supports him.pathittu path,pathupattu,chilappathikaram, manimekhala etc are sangam literature which are in tamil. there are numerous folk songs about the billava warriors heroism.their deeds are unparrelled and surpassed by any others in the history.there are thousands of folk songs which are recently beening collected and published but not yet put to acadamic studies.many are not even published.garadi or kalari are martial arts schools run by the billavars.many martial arts experts from kerala used to visit these garadis for learning tulu style of martial arts,or known as tulunadan kalari in kerala.kalaris in kerala are cheifly run by ezhavar or thiyyar caste which are same caste such as billavar,these castes too are considered orgined from villar ,the warrior community of sangam age. 115.254.54.146 (talk) 05:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Neither Sangam literature nor folk songs constitute a reliable source. Information must come from secondary sources, such as historians, anthropologists, and sociologists (or for current information, high quality journalists). Everything you write here is just your personal opinion/knowledge, and, as such, cannot be added to the article. However, if you would like to provide reliable sources, then we can discuss making changes. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Bcoz of such wrong information in wikipedia, students are not advised to refer any of article. In above discussion Qwyrxian keeps on asking reliable data, whereas i had provided him some reliable sources, still he had not changed. 115.113.175.180 (talk) 09:59, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

You haven't provided a single reliable source. Please, just in case I missed it, provide exactly one reliable source below. You may want to read our guideline on reliable sources first. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading

Pls refer to the below comment:

When CV RamanPillai wrote the first historical novel he chose to depict Branthan Chanan alias Anantha Padmanabhan was a disguised Nair. Raman Pillai did not try to explain why a Nair aristorcrat should disguise himself as a Nadar and how he managed to do it. The ungratefulness of the Travancore rulers in the 18th century with the Parangi/British support turned Nadars into slaves. Dharma Raja who followed Marthandavarma had his kingdom supported by British as well as the exodus of Nairs running away from Tippu. The worst period of Nadars and Villavars who once belonged to the old Tamil Kingdoms started with that. The British Parangis supported the Matriarchal kingdoms unconditionally. Nadars did not have any right during the British rule which lasted till 1947. British missionaries converted Nadars to Christianity during this period but never supported the Nadar claims of Kshatriyahood. The Malik Kafurs invasion in 1310 removed all the Tamil Villavar kingdoms from power. A Matriarchal tribe from tulunadu called Bunt who were once brought to Karnataka as slaves from Ahichatram (Uttranchal)/Nepal became dominant in Kerala in the 14th century. Many subcastes of the Tulu Bunt community which practised Matriarchy such as Nayara Menava Kuruba and Samantha became lords of Kerala with the help of Delhis invaders. Matriarchy and Polyandry practised by the latterday rulers after 14th century because of their Himalayan origin. Bunt or Buntaru in Kannada meant bonded slave warriors from Ahichatram. Samantha a subgroup of the Tulunadus Bunt community became the rulers of Kerala. Tulu writing system was promoted by these Samantha rulers (Modern Malayalam is written with Tulu writing system). Samanthas practised Matriarchy and Polyandry which were never practised by the Tamil Villavar rulers of Kerala prior to 1310. Adding insult to injury the British scholors promoted the Tulu Nepales dynasty of Samanthan Nairs as descendents of the Tamil Kulasekhara dynasty which ruled Kerala for many thousand years. The Samantha kingdoms actually descend from a Tulu invader called Kulasekhara who was the brother of the Tulu king Kaviraja Singha Arasan (Kavi Alupendra 1100-1170) of the Alupas dynasty of Tululnadu. Keralolapathy a book written in the 17th century mentions the invasion of Kerala by the Tulu prince Kulasekhara who invaded Kerala with 350000 strong Nair army thereby ending the Tamil Villavar Chera Dynasty at 1102 AD. This Tulu Kulasekhara established a Matriarchal kingdom at Kannur and called himself Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal. His descendent was the Kolathiri ruler of Kannur called Udayavarman Kolathiri. The Tulu Nepalese Bunt/Nair dynasties were dormant under the Tamil Pandyan dynasty which ruled over Kerala till 1310 AD. Till the 17th century the Tamil Villavar Chera-Ai ruler ruled from Southern Kerala and Southern Tamil Nadu. Nadars descend from the Villavar Nadalvar dynasties of Kerala and Tamil nadu. The Tulu Nepalese dynasty with origins at Ahichatra and from the Naga slaves brought form Ahichatra by Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 AD are not related to ethnic Tamil Chera or Pandyan dynasties.

http://pazhayathu.blogspot.in/2010/04/robert-l.html

When Portuguese came to Kerala Keralas language was Tamil. However the Tamil Chera (Villavar) Vellalar and Ayar aristocracy had been defeated and replaced by the the invasion of Malik Kafur in 1310 AD. After 1310 Kerala was occupied and ruled by Tulu tribes (Nayara Menava Samantha) etc. The new rulers of Kerala after 1310 might descend from the Naga tribes brought by Karnatakas kadamba kings from Nepal as slave warriors hence called Bunts. Bands of Nagas from Ahichatram had migrated to Tulunadu under Brahmin(Nambudiri Shivally Brahmins). Since the Buntas were not allowed to marry or have families a Matriarchal society had evolved. The Tulunadus Bunt/Nair dynasties of Kerala practiced Matriarchy and Polyandry. Tamil Chera Pandya or Chola dynasties had never practised Matriarchy. Kerala with a Tamil population,(Villavar/Panickar Vellalar/Pillai Parathavar and Ayar) ruled by ethnically and culturally different Bunts (Samantha Nayara Menava Kuruba etc) and Nambudiris with Tulumadu roots. Portuguese chose to support the primitive weak Matriarchal Tulu Samantha rulers with their Christian Mestizo army. The Mestizo support to the Tulu Samantha rulers with Nepalese/Ahichatra origins led to the destruction of Dravidian Tamil culture of Kerala. http://keralacastehistory.blogspot.in/2012/08/history-of-nairs-ezhavas-billava-syrian.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Attysandy (talk • contribs) 07:23, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Blogspot-hosted stuff is not usually consider reliable on Wikipedia. Please see WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Remove" A Billava toddy tapper, ca. 1909" as it does not belong to Billava.

Upload the following image: http://coastaldigest.com/images/stories/pictures/Nov2013/Nov15/koti_chennayya.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Attysandy (talk • contribs) 07:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea whether your linked image relates to Billava or not but we can't include copyrighted images in articles. What makes you think that the existing image is not of a Billava? - Sitush (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Devil worship is incorrect term

Devil worship is an incorrect term that gets used frequently . It should be Spirit worship . This confusion primarily comes up due to word "Butha" being used for ghosts and spirits. source - http://www.shastriyakannada.org/DataBase/KannwordHTMLS/CLASSICAL%20KANNADA%20RELIGION%20HTML/BHUTHARADHANE%20HTML.htm https://www.deccanherald.com/content/469784/invoking-guardian-spirits-coastal-karnataka.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikisarvajna (talk • contribs) 14:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC) 

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2017

I am getting a feeling after going through the history details, the protecting editor is being unfair and is keeping only that content that is showing the community in poor light. Sudarshan Karnad (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. -- Dane ^talk 01:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Billavas and ezhavas are similar caste

Some one in this page mention that billava and ezhava are completely distinct caste .The actually concept is billavas are in south Karnataka and ezhavas are in Kerala ... both ezhavas and billavas are in different state that's y billavas girls are not given to ezhavas and also distint language Tulu and Malayalam ...but both the community belongs to same customs as toddy tapping and are similar caste and follow Narayan guru and there is nothing distinct in this communities and I dont know about thiyyas they are not mentioned as billavas ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:5481:B718:0:0:760:C0A4 (talk) 14:08, 7 May 2018 (UTC)