Talk:Bilhorod People's Republic

Merge with 2023 Belgorod Oblast attack

WP:NTEMP, it's better to merge this page into 2023 Belgorod Oblast attack. In addition, this article (uk:Білгородська Народна Республіка) is placed under creation protection in Ukrainian wikipedia.--El caballero de los Leones (talk) 11:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. The contents of this page has already been expanded to include lots of parody uses which happened long before the May 2023 conflict in Belgorod region. The attack on Belgorod region is continuing and still hard to conclude this will only be a one-time incident. And the memes and parody components are clearly not falling into the scope of WP:NTEMP. Fang Luo (talk) 19:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

@唐吉訶德的侍從 Support merge this article was full of fake narratives, barely longer than the explainer on the Belgorod attack page, and no compelling reasons were named to change that status. Zerbrxsler (talk) 13:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Please indicate what "fake narratives" are you mentioning? Fang Luo (talk) 19:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support the article can exist perfectly but it is easier to delete this article and start over again (WP:TNT). All the attempts to create this article so far have failed to appropriately cover the information available on this topic. Super Ψ Dro 08:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
• Strongly support merge into the "other reactions" subsection. This article was already created as Belgorod People's Republic and was also merged into the Belgorod attack article. It didn't have enough notability to support a separate article then and it certainly doesn't have enough now. (This article also contained a heavy amount of synth, citations 5-12 of this diff had nothing to do with the subject.) --Grnrchst (talk) 13:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  Those contents has nothing to do with the conflict last week but helps reader understand the origin of the Ukrainian political meme and the background of BNR movement. Merging it to the conflict would be confusing. Fang Luo (talk) 14:31, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not advocating for merging those sources, that's why I removed them. I removed them because they have nothing to do with the subject. That you have an original interpretation of them that links them with the subject isn't sufficient for inclusion. Honestly I don't think anything in this article is worth merging other than one or two of the sources in the first sentence. This article just isn't worth keeping. -- Grnrchst (talk) 14:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  It's clearly supported by multiple reliable sources that BNR started as a parody of russian. backed "LNR/BNR' etc. And the proper introduction of these subjects is essential for readers to understand why there's even this thing at the first place. Unfortunately this topic has already been mentioned in lots of different occasions, related to the last week's conflict or not. Fang Luo (talk) 19:36, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  It is still not a thing. You can repeat it as often as you want, your misinformation will not pass. The "Belgorod People's Republic" was never created. You provide articles from reliable news sources, which do not prove or in many cases even mention what you address. Seize vandalising this entry, topic, and spreading misinformation. Zerbrxsler (talk) 20:40, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Merge, this subject is clearly not notable. It was previously rejected as a draft and redirected to the article about the incursion under a different name. HappyWith (talk) 14:51, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

That draft was rejected for adding no source but twitter posts. And its contents are substantially different from the content on the current page. Fang Luo (talk) 15:39, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

If you can't find better sources then you will not be able to add that information anywhere on this site. Here you are admitting wanting to violate WP:RELIABLE. Zerbrxsler (talk) 20:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

lmao my version is a complete rewrite and used as much reliable sources as possible, has nothing to do with that draft mentioned by someone else tbh. Again, the actual country part lacks enough coverage, but the meme part do have lots of coverage from apr2022 till today. Fang Luo (talk) 00:49, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Support - This topic is notable enough for inclusion into 2023 Belgorod Oblast incursion but not enough for its own article, at least not yet. Charles Essie (talk) 16:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

More contents, especially those coverage independent to the conflict on May 2023 has been and is continuing to be added to this article. This subject is closely related to the incursion last week, but is unable to be completely covered by it. Fang Luo (talk) 19:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The entry is called Belgorod Oblast "conflict" which covers more than the incursion. This meme exists because of that conflict. It covers the timeline and first major incursion of this kind, which arguably gave this topic the biggest attention to date. Your sources mention big rise of posts surrounding this meme because of the incursion alone. Zerbrxsler (talk) 20:43, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - strongly. "Bilhorod People's Republic" and "2023 Belgorod Oblast attack" are two entirely different subjects which have in common only name of the city (Bilhorod/Belgorod). Well, even the name of the city is different in these two pages. My very best wishes (talk) 23:10, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  This isn't really an argument for keeping the article. The nom is arguing that it isn't notable. HappyWith (talk) 23:13, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

OK. Merge it is.My very best wishes (talk) 23:20, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The BNR as meme and parody seen lots of use since apr 2022, these has nothing to do with May 2023 conflict. Fang Luo (talk) 00:45, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I did not know that. I withdraw my support for the merge. Charles Essie (talk) 05:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Charles Essie, it is not being argued that the topic is not notable. It is, however this article has not given an appropriate reflection of that. Right now it is an insult to readers to portray the inexistent "Bilhorod People's Republic" as an "unrecognised state" with its own anthem, currency, etc.. It's just a meme. This page is trash and it shouldn't exist. It should be rewritten from scrach (WP:TNT). Super Ψ Dro 10:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• I'd like to ask for some urgency for carrying out the merge. It looks like there's overwhelming support and I don't really want this page claiming the existence of a supposed unrecognized state with supposed official capital, currency or languages to exist any longer. This is a literal WP:HOAX. It is kind of shameful for the encyclopedia. Super Ψ Dro 10:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that this matter needs attending urgently. But unfortunately the state of edit warring on this article means that any merger/redirect would likely be reverted quite quickly. The latter needs dealing with before we can confidently proceed with the former. -- Grnrchst (talk) 11:41, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. HappyWith (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. Support merge urgently. Zerbrxsler (talk) 19:49, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

    Y Merger complete. It's been a few days now. The edit war was brought to an end and the page was protected, with no edits made at all yesterday. So I went ahead with the merger. Let's be done with this. -- Grnrchst (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Support - No real reason to separate this from the incursion article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 23:25, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

The Poster

The "Bilhorod is Ukraine" poster Юе Артеміс (talk) 11:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

seems this poster is not released under proper license? would you able to contact the copyright holder? Fang Luo (talk) 19:21, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

History Section

History section of many other countries includes incidents happens before the formation of current regime. User Grnrchst should justify his logic to remove the related history part. Fang Luo (talk) 15:17, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

There was no entity formed, it is a meme, thus no history section is needed. The meme has no such history. Zerbrxsler (talk) 16:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

If you treat it as a meme, proper background should be explained instead of what you did, deleting lots of contents without proper justification. Fang Luo (talk) 17:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't treat it as a meme, it is a meme. This history part is not related to the meme, it rather creates the implication that this entity exists, which is the narrative you want to stir with this entire page. Zerbrxsler (talk) 20:45, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Also user Grnrchst continues claim the background part is deleted due to "Failed Verification" but without pointing out which of the 10 sources including those from the Guardian failed his verification standard. Please don't be hesitate to propose a better background introduction instead of deleting facts of Russian involvement in Crimea and Donbas war, and the background of why the parody had become a popular internet meme long before the attack on Russian territory happened on last week. Fang Luo (talk) 18:05, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Literally all of it failed verification. Not a single one of those sources that I removed (whether it be bellingcat, BBC News, The Guardian or whatever) references a "Bilhorod People's Republic" or what any of this "background" has to do with such a republic. As it stands, nothing about these sources verify a connection between this "background" and the subject of the article, hence why I removed it as synth. If a source did verifiably mention what any of this has to do with the subject of a "Bilhorod People's Republic", that'd be different. But they don't so it isn't. It's just original research. Also, please don't gender me if you're going to do it incorrectly. -- Grnrchst (talk) 18:15, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

It's clearly stated in the following text (and supported by multiple reliable sources) that the "BNR" started as a parody of Crimea and "LNR/DNR". Therefore those part introducing the facts on what happened in LNR/DNR is relevant to the topic of this page.

What "synth" claim is here? BNR was initially a parody of "LNR/DNR" etc? this is directly supported by sources. and the brief introduction of LNR/DNR are just listing facts. Fang Luo (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

None of these sources state anything close to what you are saying, you are making this up. Several users here agree with this. Zerbrxsler (talk) 18:16, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Those sources are supporting the background of Russia backed statelets such as "LNR/DNR". And clearly supported by multiple reliable sources, BNR was initially a parody of such "People's republics". Fang Luo (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Infobox

User Super Dromaeosaurus wants to remove the original infobox, but it seems media coverage are there saying militants are actually trying to create a statelet, instead of just meme about it. Fang Luo (talk) 15:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@Fang Luo The infobox is not meant to be used for internet memes, this creates the false implication that such an entity was formed, which it was not (WP:FAILEDVERIFICATION).

Your source says, that "[...] In a social-media taunt, Ukrainian sources shared an image of three soldiers proclaiming a new “Belgorod’s People’s Republic” [...].". This means it is purely satirical, a internet meme, which even your primary source says.

Furthermore, it also points out the real objectives: "A spokesman for Ukraine’s military intelligence said the two volunteer battalions crossed into the Belgorod region to “create a security zone” to protect Ukrainian civilians from Russian attacks."

The photo you refer to was taken last year, by an unknown source, unknown soldiers and unknown purpose. It is not related or created during the 2023 Belgorod Oblast incursion, you just made this connection up. Zerbrxsler (talk) 16:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

There are other photos supporting this is not just an internet meme. https://twitter.com/GwarWorin/status/1660744679086866432?s=20

And if the photo referred by the Telegraph is actually token last year, does that really convincing enough to support the whole thing is just memes and there's no unidentified militants actively doing this? That's questionable. Also, there's never a or template be put on the deleted lines, a "Failed Verification" without even asking for verification is also questionable. Also, as you noticed, this topic have lots of components which have nothing to do with the attack on Russia last week. Proving its inappropriate to merge into the main article of the conflict itself.Fang Luo (talk) 17:51, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Twitter is not a reliable source, and again, there is no information surrounding this image or reliable sources that this is the creation of said entity. WP:RELIABLE

You are speculating and literally making it up. Provide sources. Several people here asked for verification, and it did fail verification, stop pretending that it didn't. Zerbrxsler (talk) 20:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

asking for verification of what? enough evidence has been given that BNR started as a parody of Russian backed statelets such as LNR and DNR. During the 2023 attack on the Belgorod region by pro-Ukrainian militants, Ukrainian government officials joked on such propaganda and claim "it is well known that tanks can be purchased from Russian military stores", and therefore these are related. You are ignoring this and still removing contents with reliable sources. Fang Luo (talk) 21:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I will cite the introduction: "Bilhorod People's Republic (Ukrainian: Білгородська Народна Республіка, БНР/BNR), also known as "Belgorod People's Republic" is [...] an unrecognized self proclaimed quasi-state in Belgorod region."

You keep re-adding that an entity like that was created. It failed verification. You provided no source confirming this. Seize spreading misinformation. Zerbrxsler (talk) 21:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

That line is negotiable and you should add a verification needed tag and waiting for supplemented sources, instead of claim "failed verification" all by yourself even without asking for verification. And you are also repeatedly mixing this with the background intro of LNR/DNR and alike, which is clearly supported by multiple sources that those events are indeed related to BNR. Fang Luo (talk) 21:19, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I will not let pure misinformation be there? Do you feel no shame overruling all others here, who do you think you are? You were reminded several times of the rules of this site, you ignored all of them to push your narrative, refusing to acknowledge that this is false information. Spit in the face of all here to act like noone asked for sources, we asked dozens of times, you can not provide them. This entitiy does not exist, the LNR/DNR are the motivation for this joke. Zerbrxsler (talk) 21:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Statement1: BNR as a meme is a parody mocking LNR/DNR is a fact. Also its supported with multiple reliable sources.

Statement2: BNR is an active country. This is the questionable part with limited information for now.

But nothing on the second statement part affects the narrative on the first statement. And your act deleting that part really looks like trying to hide Russian war crime and their involvement in LNR/DNR. Fang Luo (talk) 00:44, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

There was never a serious political declaration of independence. This is ridiculous. 罗放, competence is required. To identify an obvious meme as a serious political movement and stubbornly stick to this misinterpretation might be indicative that there is a lack of the necessary capabilities for editing Wikipedia. Super Ψ Dro 17:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

"Kharkiv People's Republic", "Odessa People's Republic" had even less supporting coverage. And In the article, it's clearly indicated it's both a meme but also an ongoing movement by actual militants.Fang Luo (talk) 17:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh look, neither of those "people's republic" have their own articles either. They're a subsection of a different article, as this should be. -- Grnrchst (talk) 18:18, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

So should the illegal LNR and DNR and Republic of Crimea？And btw, the parody and meme part of BNR was there long before the conflict in Belgorod region last week. Merging it into the conflict page would only cause confusion. Fang Luo (talk) 19:10, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a source for your claim that "the parody and meme part of BNR was there long before the conflict in Belgorod region last week"? HappyWith (talk) 22:05, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

In the now deleted part here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bilhorod_People%27s_Republic&oldid=1157619251 there are lots of memes usage after apr 2022. Fang Luo (talk) 00:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

@NYMan6 Consensus is against adding {{Infobox country}} to the article, as it is obviously not a real country. I would remove it myself, but I think I am getting close to 3RR, so please discuss here. HappyWith (talk) 17:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Support

Belgorod separatism is supported by some Russian opposition leaders. 2A02:3030:815:CA06:1:0:3C8A:794E (talk) 17:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute - Russian disinformation

Despite user @Fang Luo not being able to properly verify the main narrative of this article, that a entity called "Belgorod People's Republic" was created in Russia, the user keeps removing notices and re-adding those claims.

As there is a information ware ongoing, I deem such fake news as pro-Russian disinformation, or indirectly pushing such narratives. It is not proven that Ukraine supports the creation of such an entity, created such an entity, or even supports the incursions.

That Russia is being attacked by Ukraine is a justification of the Russian regime for this war, Ukraine did not threaten the Russian population, Ukraine did not start this war or conflict. Russia says Ukraine threatened its security. All of this is false.

Spreading the misinformation that Ukraine is irredentist or supports creating such entities such as the "BPR", by creating such states, not just backs rethoric that Ukraine commits the same crimes, it pushes above mentioned war justification. Multiple times in this article was said that Ukraine supports this incursion, or was linked to it. This is not proven. It is clear bias against Ukraine. Zerbrxsler (talk) 21:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

1. Your PROD notice can be removed by anyone giving objection, and once done so, should not be added back.

2. I support your effort to require the "pro-ukrainian" narrative and even removing those.

3. Russia is being attacked by little green men - like militants which is still unidentified. not ZSU or other Ukrainian forces.

4. BNR, as an internet meme, existed long before the conflict last week and exposes Russian propaganda's narrative on LNR/DNR. Fang Luo (talk) 21:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

You can not remove PROD notices just because it does not fit you. There are discussions about this going on in the other threads here, which you ignored when editing. You are required to wait for some time.

2 and 3 confirm my fear that this user is indeed supportive of Russian disinformation. Russia is not being attacked by "little green men". It is not a pro-Ukrainian narrative to say that Ukrainian involvement is not proven. It is a pro-Russian narrative to say it is. The meme indeed is information warfare against Russia, but what you do is supporting actual Russin propaganda narratives. Zerbrxsler (talk) 21:35, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Actually, anyone can remove a PROD tag. PROD is only supposed to be used for uncontroversial deletions. HappyWith (talk) 22:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this user, though calling it "pro-Russian disinformation" is too far, IMO. If the sources say it, we can put it in. If not, we can't, period. The sources in the article do not call it an actual entity, so we cannot draw that conclusion. HappyWith (talk) 21:56, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Also, hasn't Fang Luo violated WP:3RR multiple times over by this point? By my rough count filtering through the editor's contributions, I count something like 6 reverts on this page in the last 24 hours. HappyWith (talk) 21:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

restoring large amounts of texts removed without discussion falls into Wikipedia:NOT3RR. This happens multiple times for the part on background of LNR/DNR and its connection with BNR parody. Fang Luo (talk) 00:40, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

No, it does not. Where does it say that in that linked guideline? HappyWith (talk) 12:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

References