Talk:Bembo

Bembo has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: May 15, 2016. (Reviewed version).

Roman & Italic

The present version of this entry reads: "Lowercase italic k has an elegantly curved stroke . . ." However, there is no "italic" version of Bembo. Strictly speaking "Bembo" refers to the range of roman characters. When Stanley Morison and the Lanston Monotype Company finished their metal interpretation of cuts by Francesco Griffo, which came to be known as "Bembo", it did not include an italic. Monotype first had Alfred Fairbank design an accompanying italic face, but it was ultimately rejected. Bembo was later paired with "Arrighi", an italic derived from the hand of Ludovico degli Arrighi. Current digital versions consequently have the roman Bembo paired with the italic Arrighi. "Lowercase italic k" thus refers to Arrighi, not to Bembo. 80.200.47.59 (talk) 10:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Expert needed

This article seems to express opinions on the subject with words like "elegantly," "delicate" et al. The editor who expanded this section also added four references, but without page numbers it's not exactly easy to tell if these are expert's opinions on the subject, or original research. I'm going to tag this section now for an expert, maybe someone who has access to these references cited can help. Auntie E. 19:26, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recently available fonts

One would think this section would be for discussion of post-Monotype revivals of this face, but I found only a line about recent book projects that use Bembo. I've left it in, but it should be either deleted or moved to a section about notable book projects that use the face, which could get way too long. In the meantime I've added descriptions of the Cardo and Yale projects. Hieronymus Illinensis (talk) 11:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good point. I've been looking recently at Bembo revivals and frankly I don't think many are that notable. (Cardo and Yale certainly qualify to my mind, Cardo being free and Yale being corporate-backed.) Do you have any ideas for topics that would be worth adding? Blythwood (talk) 07:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion

Hello all,

I feel this article needs a bit of a tuneup. I'm happy to put in the time, but I'm keen to see what people think should be added/kept. My feelings are:

The history section was unsourced and it's clear there's a lot of history due to the mixture of related styles and sizes Monotype sold under different names (Poliphilus, Arrighi, Blado, etc). If anyone knows a good source on this please let me know, but my approach would be to cut down to a sourced minimum and leave the rest up to the reader to research.
Do we really need the list of order numbers? They're not even sourced to a specific Monotype publication! I feel anyone planning to engage in hot metal printing can and should be looking for more specialist sources than Wikipedia, and they do make the article very unwieldy. (Obviously I don't want the information lost - if, say, the Internet Archive or Flickr has an archived Monotype specimen booklet that would probably be a better place to send people to.)
The distinctive characteristics list is meaningless - 'double-story a' means it and every other serif typeface. (Except Bembo Infant...) Any suggestions about meaningful identifiable characteristics that set Bembo out from, say, Minion or Arno? I don't feel citations are needed so much here as anyone can look at the typeface for themself, but suggestions are welcomed. But we could just view the section as not appropriate to Wikipedia and cut it.

If anyone knows of some good specimens in hot metal I'd be keen to add them. I think a lot of people suggest that Bembo digitisations don't always quite capture the warmth and humanity of the hot metal version, but I only have a license to the first digitisation which everyone says is way too light..

Blythwood (talk) 08:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've now reached the point where I think this article could make a GA nomination once I've locked down the information about the matrix order numbers. Again, any feedback welcomed. Blythwood (talk) 05:14, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bembo/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 18:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to take on this as well. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 18:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Sainsf: - OK sounds great, thanks! Ready when you are. Blythwood (talk) 23:51, 1 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Please expand the lead so that it covers all the important aspects of the article. Form two or three good paras.
Citations are generally not added to the lead unless you mention something controversial. All claims should be mentioned as well as cited in the main article.

I think this is finished now. As part of tuning up the article, I've tonight written articles on two of the people mentioned, Tagliente and Fairbank to give the reader more information also.

History

Section looks choppy. Combine paras.

Not sure what you mean here, but I hope I've finished re-editing it enough for it to be more organised.

(of Bologna) was an engraver Comma before "was".
1496, (1495 by the Venetian calendar) "1496 (1495 by the Venetian calendar),"
Link Cardinal.
Say "punch-cutter" or "punchcutter"
Who is Beatrice Warde?
Link roman and Venice
Duplink: punchcutter

Section fixed and expanded. Duplinks removed

Monotype history

Aldus Manutius's 15th-century roman type No need to say "Aldus".
Introduce Arrighi in the earlier section.
Duplinks: metal type, Didone, Ludovico Vicentino degli Arrighi

Fixed

Characteristics

Is ref. 42 the source for This meant that many of the serifs ... The ascenders reach above the cap height? Place it at the end of the line.
Bembo does not attempt to faithfully copy "faithfully" sounds weird, how about "strictly"?
two versions of uppercase R R should be in italics, as are others.

Added extra citations here for the first point and a few more links. I think on balance italics break up the text flow - replaced all with quotation marks.

Related fonts

Poliphilus (1923) and italic Blado No date for the latter?
In the hot metal type era Monotype also issued a titling version of Centaur, which was often used by Penguin but has not been digitised. Source?
different letter shapes.^[63][64]) Keep citations outside bracket.
Duplinks: Hypnerotomachia Poliphili, Mosley, Arighi, hot metal type

Fixed. With the "not digitised" statement I can't prove a negative (they *might* have done one, but if so they haven't told anyone about it) so have removed this statement.

Timeline

Sure that each point is sourced here or elsewhere?

Good point - some of the dates of death might not have been. I've added some extra citations here for these.

Reception: This isn't something you had any recommendations about, but I thought I should mention that I've decided to split this section into two paragraphs. I've also reordered to make it in loose chronological order.

Digitisations and derivatives

Monotype have released "has", if Monotype is considered singular
The larger size versions of Bembo, with a more delicate and elegant design, have never been digitised. Source?
Duplinks: type colour, Robert Slimbach

Ditto, no way to prove a negative. I've cited the description of the digitisation to show that both are based on the small-size versions. Many more citations also added

Images

File:02 Garalda.svg (Diagram of Bembo showing key characteristics) is repeated in the article.
Pietro Bembo's portrait should be placed where he is mentioned first

Fixed

That should be it. These done, I would be happy to promote this. Cheers! Sainsf (talk · contribs) 13:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Sainsf: - Thanks! Will think about all this over the next day or so. Blythwood (talk) 13:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of this is now fixed - will describe in detail. I am drafting a new lead. Blythwood (talk) 21:20, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Blythwood: You there? Sainsf (talk · contribs) 08:08, 8 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    - Hi! Yes, I've been thinking about a new lead. Should have it up this evening. Blythwood (talk) 12:03, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      - @Blythwood: Sorry but it appears you are delaying things here. Please respond within two days or I will have to fail this, it has been a week since we had any appreciable activity here. Sainsf (talk · contribs) 06:41, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay - I hope that fixes everything now. I've written a new intro and added some extra citations. Changes summarised above. Blythwood (talk) 03:24, 14 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looks great. Promoted. Sainsf (talk · contribs) 03:08, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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