Talk:Battle of Raduša

Claims made by UPI, Janes Information Services and VOA

Here are the Quotes of UPI, Janes Information Services and VOA (Not Quotes by an NLA commander) UPI: "Mesuesi's troops were indeed among the most successful rebel units to fight government security forces. Operating for months from hidden positions in the hills, the rebels finally moved in to take this strategic town, capturing the police station and army barracks. The brigade got to within 10 miles of the capital, Skopje, just before political leaders signed a peace agreement." Janes Information Services: "In July the NLA swept down from the mountains into the predominantly Albanian city of Tetovo and into the valley to the east. A string of Albanian villages rallied to the cause and NLA fighters moved on to the Zeden feature between Tetovo and Skopje, capturing the border town of Raduse." and "During the failed Macedonian police attack to relieve Radusa in early August, government forces had to abandon a T-55 tank and two armoured personnel carriers (a TM 170 and a BTR), which were captured by the NLA and pressed into service against their former owners." VOA: "In the town of Radusha, the rebels scored major successes against government security forces Saturday. Despite long-range rocket attacks and bombing by government warplanes, Interior Minister Ljube Boskovski said Sunday that police were forced to withdraw from the town after the police station and an adjacent watchtower were set ablaze by the rebels." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karadakli230 (talk • contribs) 02:39, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

You are first of all intentionally misreading sources. I have on several occasions including told you that the VOA quote is incomplete and intentionally taken out of context, in the actual quote Ljube Boskovski said that the police station and army outpost had to be evacuated and that the security forces were fighting from secondary defensive positions the VOA source intentionally takes it out of context which casts doubt on the citation as a reliable source. Second of all Jane's Defense Weekly, just like the Guardian quote are cases of journalists who are there during OPERATION ESSENTIAL HARVEST weeks after the battle ended and the Ohrid Framework Agreement was signed under which the Macedonian government was obliged to withdraw forces from border regions like Radusha which were then selected as weapons disposal sites and this is when the NLA entered Radusha and claimed to have captured it to journalists who were reporting what they were told. The reason i cast doubt on this is because all sources from the time of fighting up until the 13th of August report fighting in and around the town up until the signing of the ceasefire and because Macedonian witnesses and participants in the events tell a vastly different story, now i don't ask you to trust Macedonian sources but i find it very odd that there are 0 Albanian sources on this battle i have tried googling in Albanian and the best i got was an Albanian website claiming that a Macedonian politician was lying about Radusha but simply posted his opinion on the battle without refuting it at all. All the sources agree Macedonian and English is that the army outpost and barracks were destroyed that's the only thing that can be added to the result section. Second of all you have deleted the sources that the Macedonian SF prevented the fall of the water supply demanding that the NLA had to officially proclaim it was its goal which is prepostorous, the fact that the NLA says nothing does not mean that all the other sources are wrong, you intentionally and constant shift the burden of proof however you see fit, all the sources agree that the Macedonian SF defended the Rasce water spring which is proved by reports of fending off attacks at Bojane and by fighting in Radusha up until the signing of the agreement. If the NLA had captured the water supply to the capital it would have been on front page news everywhere.

And here is a youtube video of the NLA entering radusha the camera clearly shows 22/08/01 as the date which is when operation essential harvest started, now please stop vandalizing this page, you have done this constnantly and previously claimed that the NLA had captured Radusha and KUCKOVO without ANY citations and then also with 0 sitations claimed that the Macedonian SF had 2000 men and 30 tanks in Radusha which you or someone else MADE UP, you are clearly not arguing in good faith and are editing disruptivlely in order to prove a point despite the fact all the sources for the battle contradict it.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 18:36, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

I forgot the youtube link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZeOGw4SuQg

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 15:51, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

The source UPI clearly bases it's information on the NLA Brigade it is there INTERVIEWING and it does not mention the NLA capturing the town it mentions them Finally moving in, meaning that they were now finally entering the town after they destroyed the Army and Police barracks, this was in August 22 two weeks after the battle when they entered the town during operation Essential Harvest.

The VOA quote intentionally missquotes Ljube Boskovski who at the time said the Army and Police were withdrawn from the outposts and dug in into secondary defensive positions not that they were forced to abandon the town

Jane source says the NLA captured the town in JULY which was undefended at the time they simply moved in the village. The battle was after the Army and Police established checkpoints there IN AUGUST.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 17:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive edits and removing of citations

This wiki page is constantly vandalized by a wikipedia user who demands specific statements from English citations or NLA admission of defeat which for obvious reasons cannot exist but has previously altered the results section in the page to include uncited information such as the NLA capturing Radusha and Kuchkovo and that the Macedonian army had 2000 troops, it is clear this editor is not editing articles in good faith. His only source that the NLA captured Radusha comes from an interview with NLA commander Meussi two weeks after the battle, but according to him this is a reliable source but Macedonian sources that claim otherwise are not.

All English citations and articles confirm the offensives were aimed at taking control of Radusha and Bojane in order to reach the Rasce water spring, if you look a google map you will see they are less than 4km from the North and West guarding the two roads to the spring, i also have another proof that the goal was Rasce and this is Petrit Menaj an NLA veterans book in which a picture is shown of planned operations if the signing of the Ohrid agreement did not take place which includes the Rasce water spring but i cannot upload the picture nor do i know how to do the copyright thing. The picture is on page 73 here https://web.archive.org/web/20180927210630/http://soros.org.mk/dokumenti/FIOOM-Poraka-i-nadez-tom-II.pdf

None of these sources are relevant according to him he demands an NLA confirmation of this but it cannot be found because i have searched for information on the battle of Radusha in Albanian and there is nothing online.

The only reliable information from both western sources and confirmation from the Macedonian government states that the NLA destroyed the Police Station and Army outpost and that the troops were evacuated to secondary defensive positions his Voice of America citation for the capture of Radusha does not mention the NLA capturing Radusha only that the NLA had "successes" and MISQUOTES the Macedonian interior minister saying that according to him the town was abandoned. The actual quote found here (https://reliefweb.int/report/former-yugoslav-republic-macedonia/macedonia-security-signing-final-agreement-take-place) states :

""They are dislocated to and entrenched in other positions so that they may be more effective in their operations against terrorists" Minister Boskoski stated."

This intentional misquote to come to a different conclusion is enough to discredit the article as a source. (https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-a-2001-08-12-5-macedonia-67240722/266208.html)

He know demands written English sources stating "The NLA did not reach the Rasce spring" to stop vandalizing the page but this cannot be found because the Radusha events were overshadowed by the Ohrid Framework Agreement and the Ljuboten police action which left several civilians dead. The fact that the NLA attacks at Bojane were repelled (Cited) and the NLA did not take full control of Radusha because of Macedonian police and army presence is enough to prove their major goal failed. Remember the same person asking for this confirmation only has one source that the NLA took radusha and its an NLA commander interviewed during Opertation Essential Harvest after the Macedonian SF were forced to withdraw their forces from the collection zones like Radusha in order to respect the ceasefire and their presence there cannot be used as proof of them capturing the village. The source is here https://web.archive.org/web/20161017231718/http://www.alb-net.com/amcc/cgi-bin/viewnews.cgi?newsid998323699,45607, quote: "KOPJE, Macedonia (AP) - Army troops will pull back from front-line areas where NATO (news - web sites) forces are to collect weapons from ethnic Albanian rebels, Macedonia's government said Monday, a sign of its commitment to ending six months of fighting."

GoofyMF (talk) 18:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Here are the sources you used for claiming that the NLA failed to capture the Water supply near Radusha

-news24: only mentions fighting in Radusha, but nowhere mentioned that the NLA failed to capture any water supply.

-New York times: only mentions that the macedonian government claimed that the goal of the NLA was to capture the water supply, but nowhere mentioned that the NLA failed to capture any water supply.

-New York times (again): again only mentions that the macedonian government claimed that the goal of the NLA was to capture the water supply, but nowhere mentioned that the NLA failed to capture any water supply.

-reliefweb: only mentions that Boskoski said the goal of the attacks on Radusha were unknown, but nowhere mentioned that the NLA failed to capture any water supply. Karadakli230 (talk) 04:07, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

You have one source that claims the NLA captured Radusa, that claim is Commander Meussi. The other source says that the NLA had some sucesses despite heavy fighting. I have not once added a Macedonian source that the NLA were repelled even tho they are 100 of those because i edit and argue in good faith. you do not. You dismiss Macedonian sources out of hand and demand that i prove to you that the NLA admitted to losing which is absurd. You also demand English sources that spell out "Macedonia won" for there to be a Macedonian victory but you add "Albanian victory" in articles where someone placed a mine and none of the sources mention anyone winning. I have up till now entertained the Albanian source on the capture of Radusha out of good faith and to avoid edit wars. But since it's beyond clear that you do not argue in good faith i have deleted a clearly biased Albanian source. There are no sources in the Albanian language of the battle at all most likely because the NLA lost. I have googled searching in Albanian and have found nothing. Previously you used sources from a firefight in 2010 to claim that the NLA only lost 2. Then you added without a citation that the NLA captured Radusha AND Kuckovo, and that the Macedonian SF had 2000 men. With zero citations. Clearly editing in bad faith and pushing a POV. The sources i have added which all have quotes clearly say that.

A) Radusha and Bojane were vital to the control of the water supply and this was not just what the government said independent citations confirm this without quoting the government.

B) Fighting FOR Radusha continued during and after the signing of the Ceasefire meaning that the NLA did not capture the town but did manage to destroy the Army barracks and Police station

C) Attacks in Bojane were repulsed also vital to the water supply

D) Petrit Menaj as you can see from the previous reply which you clearly did not read shows that the water supply was a target in the planned map of operations by the NLA in relation to the Ohrid framework agreement it is on page 74 and says "Plan Ideja e Luftimit" clearly showing Skopje, Tetovo and the water supply with it as plans of operation

You can look at a map, Rasce is onlyt accesible from the Bojane and Radusha roads, the fighting for Radusha continued up to the signing, and the attacks at Bojane were repulsed, this '''confirms''' and '''coroborates''' the Macedonian view that the fighting was for the water supply and that the NLA failed to acquire it. If they did it would be on front page news everywhere. There are NO sources that claim the NLA captured Radusha except Commander Meusi, one Albanian source 50 Macedonian sources. The only thing that can be gathered from the sources is that the NLA destroyed the outpost but did not take the town or water supply before the signing of the agreement.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 16:07, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I have found a source that confirms that the NLA destroyed the Army outpost, and Police checkpoint and that they entered the village forcing the Macedonian Security Forces into secondary defensive positions around the outskirts of the village but were pushed back out of the village and that they failed their objectives something that the journalist confirms by interviewing and quoting the UCK commander Mesuesi who is the main source in your quote about the NLA capturing the village.

Quote confirming the NLA destroying the police and army barracks and entering the village which is something that the English source claimed, i am posting this so you cannot accuse this of being biased or Macedonian propaganda.

between August 9 and 11, with fire from all available weapons. The fact that the police station in Radusa was hit several times (and later totally destroyed after the police pulled out of the village) and that the train station building was totally destroyed (the station is located on the outskirts of the village) indicates the force of the attacks. After the attacks the police pulled out to two new locations, the abandoned buildings of the Radusa mine (Radusa colony) on the road towards

Afterwitch the secondary defensive positions around the mine were attacked as quoted by Macedonian security forces who were present and were repelled with help from the Air Force which sent the NLA back to their original positions.

According to participants in the fighting on the Macedonian side, heavy machine guns, make Frog (infamous for the incident in which former minister Ljube Boskovski wounded several civilians during a demonstration by Lions special forces unit), had crucial role in the defense and allowed policemen to successfully block all frontal attacks on their positions.

At one point during the fighting, when the extremists threatened to totally surround the policemen in the buildings of the old Radusa mine, on two occasions an ARM helicopter joined the fighting later followed by two efficient over flights by Macedonian Air Force two-seater Suhoi. That put an end to the advances by the UCK, followed by a turnaround on the battlefield, and panicky withdrawal of the UCK fighters to trenches and earth bunkers at their initial positions around the village of Radusa and an escape to Kosovo.

And here the newspaper quotes the NLA Commander Mesusi the man who participated in the fighting and is cited in the English Guardian article in which he says that the attacks on Radusha were intented to put pressure on the Macedonian government before the signing and end the war with a victory and is QUOTED as saying that THEY FAILED

On the other hand, the Albanian view of the battle near Radusa is totally different. The Macedonian side (under influence of Lj. Frckovski, according to Mesusi) wanted to conclude the crisis with a great victory, in hope of gaining political advantage in the post-crisis consolidation of the country. "However, they failed," claims Mesusi.

Conclusive proof of a Macedonian victory which connects all the previous sources and admission from UCK.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 16:06, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

It appears i have misread the quote by Mesusi and subsequently will not change the result of the battle, it will remain as is with the cited sources, i apologize.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 16:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Again intentional misquoting of sources, using sources that lie and misreport information and editing in bad faith

There is constant disruptive editing on this page intentionally misinterpreting sources to come to their own conclusion and using sources that are unreliable and lie. Second of all there is a reoccuring theme of Macedonian sources being removed for being "unreliable" while only leaving Albanian sources which according to the Albanian editors on this page are supposedly reliable which is absurd, this is pure POV pushing and editing in bad faith. I will elaborate all the problems on this page in a long text which i am kindly asking you to read and consider to stop these edit wars.

First the NLA claim to have captured Radusha and it's citations.

UPI (https://www.upi.com/Archives/2001/09/07/Frontline-NLA-Brigade-Demobilizes/8333999835200/)

1. This is an interview with the NLA commander the journalist has no other sources to verify any claims made here 2. Operating for months from hidden positions in the hills, the rebels finally moved in to take this strategic town, capturing the police station and army barracks. this confirms that the NLA destroyed the Army barracks and police station which is confirmed by Macedonian source and is in the infobox what this source does not mention because its only source is the NLA is that the town itself was not captured as the battle was not over and the Macedonian SF were dig in secondary defensive positions

VOA (https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-a-2001-08-12-5-macedonia-67240722/266208.html)

It's far from a report of a fact and more like a sensational story made intentionally to compliment the NLA but it:

1. Does not mention the NLA capturing the town again only the army barracks and police station being set ablaze 2. The source intentionally missquotes the minister of interior as "withdrawing" when he said the forces were dug in in secondary defensive positions

>In the town of Radusha, the rebels scored major successes against government security forces Saturday. Despite long-range rocket attacks and bombing by government warplanes, Interior Minister Ljube Boskovski said Sunday that police were forced to withdraw from the town after the police station and an adjacent watchtower were set ablaze by the rebels.

The real quote by the minister of interior is found here > (https://reliefweb.int/report/former-yugoslav-republic-macedonia/macedonia-security-signing-final-agreement-take-place)

The original citation with the quote: said for MIA that police units had been dislocated from the Radusa police station as the station and the watch tower had been set into fire by terrorists groups from the Kosovo Protection Corps. They are dislocated to and entrenched in other positions so that they may be more effective in their operations against terrorists "

In other words VOA is not reporting the quote that they were dislocated from the police station to secondary defensive positions they intentionally missreport it as a total withdrawl of Macedonian defense.

JDI source (https://www.mail-archive.com/antinato@topica.com/msg01077.html)

This is the most problematic, most unreliable and absurd of all the sources as it

1. Clearly biased towards the NLA using derogatory language and misreporting of facts about the Macedonian defense forces 2. Claims absurd events that never happened 3. Claims the NLA captured the town in July and that it was they who were on the defensive during the battle which is absurd.

First the things that make the whole citations unreliable and the clear Albanian bias:

> So far the group has withstood several Macedonian army and police offensives and bounced back to seize even more territory. The haphazard bombardment of Albanian villages by Macedonian aircraft, helicopter gunships and artillery

First of all what offensives has the NLA withstood? Operation MH - (MK victory) Operation MH1 - (MK victory) Operation MH2 - (Halted by western influence) Aracinovo - (Stopped by Western influence surrounded rebels rescued by NATO)

Which offensives (PLURAL) is the journalist referring too? The text also claims that the NLA was on the offensive and the Macedonian army was on the defensive which is absurd as the previous offensives have shown and which have been successfull. The NLA was pushed from Tetovo in Operation MH then pushed from the Crna Gora Region by Operation MH1 and only returned in these areas after the July 5th ceasefire which forced Macedonian SF to withdraw and establish a "demiltirized zone" The article is clearly biased either intentionally or is only relying from NLA sources. This source also claims that the Albanians are 600.000, Macedonians 1.4 million and that the total is 2 million. When the census in 94 counted 22% Albanians something the journalsit intentionally chose to ignore, another proof of the bias in the article. But most importantly the article claims that the NLA captured Radusha in JULY' and that the Macedonian Army was trying to take it in "August as if it was the NLA that was defending Radusha from The Macedonian Army attacks and not the other way around.

>In July the NLA swept down from the mountains into the predominantly Albanian city of Tetovo and into the valley to the east. A string of Albanian villages rallied to the cause and NLA fighters moved on to the Zeden feature between Tetovo and Skopje, capturing the border town of Raduse.

Again absolutely no reliable citations that the NLA captured Radusha you are editing in bad faith and posting contradictory and intentionally missreported citations to come to your own conclussions, stop these edit wars and disruptive editing the out come of the battle should be as is it is a victory of neither side so stop pushing your POV

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 16:11, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Nobody on Wikipedia copes as much as you do, How is Janes (one of the most trusted source for defence and security intelligence) a problematic and unreliable source? Firstly bring a Source which proves your point of the NLA failing to capture the Water supply before you say a source is unreliable. the NLA did withstand almost all Macedonian offensives. The NLA was never pushed out of Tetovo, the Battle literally waged until the end of the conflict. During the "Operation MH" the NLA used a tactical retreat, but was active in Tetovo just a few weeks later (https://archive.ph/20120723161154/http://transcripts.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/24/macedonia.offensive.0555/index.html). During your "Operation MH 1" Macedonian forces attacked a uninhabited village, you also mentioned that the NLA was pushed out of the Crna Gora/karadak region which is just complete BS, the NLA held villages in the region until the end of the Conflict such as Brest or Malino and held Tanusevci until the KFOR led operation which drove the NLA out. During the Vaksince offensive (which you claim never happened, even though several western sources do) the Macedonian Army halted the Operation and failed to gain control over Vaksince "due to civilian presence" even though they already had attacked the village. During "Operation MH2" the Macedonian Army suffered several casualties, In Matejche alone there were more than 2 destroyed Macedonian Tanks and the NLA again didn't lose any control over the villages that were attacked. During Operation Aracinovo the Macedonian Army claimed that they took most of the village even though local people claimed that the Macedonian army failed to capture even half of the village (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jun/28/balkans).

So as far as I'm seeing it the Macedonians managed to take back 3 villages (Gracani, Vaksince and Lojane) by Military force and 2 Villages (Tanusevci, Aracinovo) with the Help of KFOR/NATO.

Then you say that the source mentions that the NLA captured Radusha in July, I don't really know why you complain about this, since the Battle literally lasted from 20 June-13 August. The NLA took the town in July and the Macedonian Army failed to recapture it in August. Karadakli230 (talk) 02:47, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

The battle of Radusha also includes the skirmishes and ambush around the village hence June, if the NLA took the village in July and kept it then why was the Macedonian Army and Police present in the village? You are absolutely intentionally mixing up events and battles, i already told you in detail why Jane's source is not reliable you can actually clearly read what i wrote you just chose to ignore it.

Tetovo was completely taken and cleared out of the NLA by Operation MH1 not only were several villages captured but so was the Tetovo Fortress what you are doing currently is lying. You can check all the sources in the Operation MH source, the NLA returned afterwards by breaking ceasefires in order to encroach closer and closer to Macedonian positions which the Macedonian Army did not retaliate against in order to respect the ceasefire. This was admitted by Petrit Menaj of the 112th Brigade NLA commander Petrit Menaj in his conversations with Ali Ahmeti the leader of the NLA nicknamed "Abaz", on 26.07.2001 Petrit received a message from NLA HQ instructing him to use the truce to expand the front and occupy dominant positions. In his book he states:

"One day as he (Ali Ahmeti) was getting ready to go to Prizren i said to him: "Today i have decided to end the truce. He smiled, said goodbye and we parted from each other. With Agron, Mahi and Zogu we went to Brodec and opened fire with a 120mm mortar on the positions of the enemy."

And was noted by OSCE observers: ""The OSCE was in danger of becoming the object of the tensions within the crisis government, particularly as it had no mandate, let alone the power to prevent or even stop the territorial gains that the UCK/ NLA had made in the area north of Tetovo in clear violation of the ceasefire.'"

>the Macedonian Army halted the Operation and failed to gain control over Vaksince "due to civilian presence" even though they already had attacked the village

The Macedonian Army bombed Vaksince in order to force the NLA into releasing the captives and force the civilians out this was said in the other talk page which you are ignoring.

So you are telling me that the local Albanians agreed with the Albanian insurgents? I am shocked, shocked i tell you. The NLA was completely surrounded and cut off and would fall in a matter of days which was the Macedonian Army plan, it is absurd to claim that NATO helped Macedonia by evacuating the core of the NLA which would have fallen into Macedonian hands. As noted by American veterans and retired US army generals.

>The UCK brigade -- dug in around Aracinovo, four miles north of Skopje, the capital of Macedonia -- had been surrounded for two weeks, under heavy attack by Macedonian government forces and on the verge of destruction. Imagine how we'd feel if one of our units was about to take out a rebel brigade whose objective was to overthrow our government, when out of nowhere a Canadian paratroop company swooped in and saved the enemy force?

Furthermore i have added and found a JSTOR peer reviewed source that claims that the Macedonian government operations in Radusha were a success so you can go ahead and read that and leave the result as it is, i have still left the result as it is ie. the Result is Ohrid Framework agreement not Macedonian victory even tho it's what the source says out of good faith and to avoid edit wars.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 14:08, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I found two sources claiming Radusha was "rebel-held" from July 2001 (https://reliefweb.int/report/former-yugoslav-republic-macedonia/us-macedonia-envoy-crisis-talks-after-fighting) (https://reliefweb.int/report/former-yugoslav-republic-macedonia/both-sides-macedonia-conflict-agree-cease-fire).

Aswell as a source claiming the Macedonian army failed to drive out Albanian rebels from Radusha in August, thus proving that Radusha was under NLA control (https://www.nzz.ch/article7KNXS-ld.180001) Karadakli230 (talk) 02:36, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry but did you not check the date of the proclamation? It says July 2 and July 5 which is not disputed the dispute is about the NLA having caputered it in August, the town was held by the NLA in July as evidenced by the NLA attacks on Radusha in which the Macedonian army and police had established a police outpost and an army outpost. The NLA destroyed the outposts during the fighting and obviously entered the village and this is why Mesusi claims they captured the village but all the other sources clearly state the fighting in the town including the aviation which prevented the NLA from breaking through and capturing the water supply and from capturing the town as again there was still fighting I'm the town. I won't edit it yet but these sources do not claim anything new.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 11:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

German source

The new German source you added claims that the Macedonian army used all available means and that apparently the Macedonian forces did not succeed in pushing the rebels back to Kosovo. This is irrelevant as i did not claim they were pushed back to Kosovo only that there was still fighting in Radusha when the agreement is signed which all the other sources claim and they are from the day of the fighting. Second of all the Macedonian army did not use all available means by any stretch of the imagination there were 70 men fighting there and on the last day they recieved air support that's it.

You cannot claim sources are reliable simply because they agree with you but disagree with 30 citations in the article that report on the day of the fighting.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 09:35, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

You want to tell me there were only 70 macedonians fighting during the entire Battle for Radusha? Are serious? Those 70 were policemen that were fighting, were stationed during the start of the Battle and they were evacuated shortly after the NLA sorrounded them. Also what about the Counter-Offensive where the Macedonians lost 1 Tank and 2 APC's, did the Macedonian Army send the same 70 policmen back to the frontline to recapture Radusha, against 200-600 NLA rebels that were occupying it? The NLA capture of the town was an existig threat to the capital Skopje which is only 25 km away, so why wouldn't they use all available Military power to recapture the Town and drive the NLA out? In Arachinovo, which also was only a few km's away from the capital, Macedonians used 20,000 Soldiers supported by Tanks, Artillery and Attack helicopters to recapture it from the NLA. You can not claim an third party source to be unreliable, simply because they disagree with 30 biased Macedonian ones, that also claim that 300 NLA soldiers were killed in that battle, even though there were not even 300 deaths (Military and civilian) during the entire conflict. Karadakli230 (talk) 04:48, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

The 70 Macedonians were the 35 policemen and 35 Army soldiers that fought during the majority of the 3-4 days offensive by the NLA, the policemen were evacuated on the last day by the Tigers Special forces unit which is added to the units involved only the problem is there is no source or citations on how many of them were involved, when i find numbers i will add them. The tank was in the army checkpoint where the 35 soldiers were and the APC was in the police station with the 35 policemen. The Army used heavy artilery and SU-25 jets on the last day of the operations as fire support. The reason that the Macedonian Army did not conduct a counteroffensive or reinforce the troops there, unlike in Aracinovo is because the Ohrid framework agreement was being signed. The Agreement was signed on 13th August which is the last day of the battle. The prerequisite for signing the agreement was Macedonia stop any offensive actions and impose a ceasefire. Macedonian politicians refused to destroy the signing of the agreement by conducting an offensive in Radusha

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 12:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

New citations and end to the edit wars

found on JSTOR, by Andrej Krzak specifically dealing with the Insurgency in Macedonia and the Tetovo/Skopje/Kumanovo regions

>Krzak, Andrej (2014). "Asymmetry of the Albanian-Macedonian Military Conflict in 2001: Military Characteristics of the Fight in the Regions of Tetovo, Kumnaovo, Aračinovo and Vaksince". Politeja (30): 295–316. doi:10.12797/Politeja.11.2014.30.23. JSTOR 24919730. Retrieved 6 November 2022. "Within a few more days, on the 12th and 13th of August the Army and special forces joined the fight backed by aircaft and attack helicopters (Sukhoi Su-25 and Mil MI-24). Despite the lack of coordination between the police and the ARM troops, the government forces managed to eliminate the blockade of a border police station in Radusha (Raduša), and then to discard the rebel forces. Some Albanians crossed the border with Kosovo, while others occupied the bunkers and fortifications around the border villages. It was one of the biggest success of the government forces since the beginning of the conflict in Macedonia. KLA NMET suffered heavy losses in men and equipment. The breakdown of the rebel group brought a big propaganda and psychological success."

This source pretty much confirms everything that was happening that day as reported by news agencies at the time which recorded fighting up until the signing of the ceasefire which is important because the NLA claims to have captured the town which is contrary to all sources at the time.

>https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/08/13/new-fighting-imperils-pact-in-macedonia/6af35786-8e0d-4220-930e-039b08bd176a/ this was on August 13th the day of the signing:

On the eve of the scheduled signing of a comprehensive peace settlement, Macedonian Slav forces and ethnic Albanian rebels clashed today in numerous locations, including a village just three miles from the capital that was pounded by government mortars. After government officials met with NATO representatives and then suspended military operations at 7:30 p.m., there were no reports of serious fighting.

There was fighting in Radusha on the exact same day as the ceasefire and it then says that the government forces stopped their military operations.

Again August 13th:

>https://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/13/world/uncertain-cease-fire-on-eve-of-macedonian-pact-signing.html

"Both sides said they would halt hostilities at 7:30 p.m. Sunday, and about that time, the explosions that had been heard regularly in the capital largely stopped.....Fighting also continued on Sunday near the border village of Radusa, in what the government says is a battle for control over the reservoir that supplies water to Skopje."

Again absolutely no mention of the town falling to the rebels the town was still contested and fighting happened up until the signing. You can check all of the articles on the day of the signing of the framework agreement all point to this. The only sources mentioning the capture of Radusha are from August 22-24 when the NLA was there during Operation Essential Harvest and the entire article regularly quotes the NLA commander there can be no talk of this being a reliable source. The other source is "Janes defense weekly" which apart from many mistakes and use of derogatory language only mentions the town being held by the NLA in July which it was and implies that it was the Macedonian Army which was on the offensive in Radusha which is an absurd claim, the town was in NLA hands in July but in Macedonian hands in August which is why there was a police and army outpost built which the Macedonian forces were defending. Now all sources agree that the Outposts were destroyed and that the Macedonian forces retreated to secondary defensive positions from which they stopped any breakthrough either through Radusha or Bojance towards the water spring and that after the use of the Army airforce the NLA retreated to fortified positions on the outskirts of the village.

The German source claims that the Macedonian army was "apparently" unnsuccesful in driving the NLA from Radusha and into Kosovo but this is not what is claimed by anyone, the NLA was still present on the outskirts of Radusha even in the sources that call this a successfull Macedonian military operation. What was succesfull was the prevention of a breakthrough, the defense of the water spring, the relief of the surrounded police and army station and up until the signing the pushing back of the NLA to their positions outside the city. So it is clear that the result in this infobox should state:

• NLA destroy Army and Police outposts
• Macedonian forces successfully halt NLA offensives

or

• Macedonian forces prevent NLA breakthrough

This is what all the sources agree on, this is what happened even according to Macedonian eye witnesses it is high time the edit wars stop.I implore you to consider this so we can all stop this nonsense

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 16:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Usage of dead links by GoofyGoofson

GoofyGoofson uses dead links that lead to casino websites, how is this allowed? Karadakli230 (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

One usually uses the {{dead link}} tag and gives the other user a certain amount of time to update it before removing the text entirely. --Local hero ^talk 19:05, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Casualties

I see no reason why the Casualties should be changed and written “unknown” even though there were sources for it, the justification for the removal was that it was a claim by the NLA, and claims that don‘t belong in the info box, according to this argument many others Wikipedia pages like Battle of Kiev (2022) need to remove the losses because they only contain claims, like most other battles. And if we look at the list of casualties of the 86 NLA militants and the 75 Macedonian security forces, none of them died in Radusha. Daddyson11111 (talk) 17:07, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that the article previously had both NLA and Macedonian claims both expressed and pointed out as Macedonian VS NLA claims but in the following months for some reason the Macedonian claims were removed and the NLA claims remained but this time the NLA claims were not pointed out as being NLA claims but were implied to be reliable or unbiased which is clearly POV pushing. There is a JSTOR article on the battles which claims that the NLA losses in Radusha were heavy but the editors remove this citation and leave the "none" NLA source as the only one without pointing out that it was the NLA that was claimin this.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 11:04, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The thing is, they were not even attributed as claims, but paraded as facts. A common practice is not always necessarily a right practice on Wikipedia, since factual inaccuracies have sometimes remained for years on articles. It is good to note that a lot of articles are works in progress. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE is pretty clear about what should be in the infobox: When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). However, I'll still ask for outside input regarding the insertion of claims in infoboxes. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

You can restore the claims, including the claim about 400 militants. 600 militants should also be attributed as a claim. All claims should be attributed. StephenMacky1 (talk) 15:50, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

POV pushing

POV pushing has taken extreme levels and i will no longer tolerate this. When the page was originally created several citations existed that the NLA brigades had 600-700 men.

>https://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/08/11/macedonia.peace/index.html

>SKOPJE, Macedonia -- The Macedonian government criticised NATO for allowing 600 ethnic Albanian rebels cross into its territory from neighbouring Kosovo, reports have said.

Then a 200 citation was used by some after the battle and a compromise of 200-600 was used even though the 200 number was only those that demobilized at the Radusha checkpoint after the battle. And after that (NLA claim) and (Macedonian claim) were used to point out of casualty numbers or events that were contradictory but now i see that these have been removed alongside the Macedonian claims so only the NLA claims remain without any () pointing out they are in fact NLA claims.

I have discussed the supposed capture of Radusha several times and how the sources refer to the fighting i July not in august and that the other sources are NLA commanders. But since there is a reliable JSTOR source from Andrej Krzak that the battle was won by the Macedonians with heavy NLA casualties i will now be removing all the NLA sources and sources not relating to the battle as Andrej Krzak is used as a reliable source by Albanian wikipedia editors on other battles on the Kumanovo front. Read the dozen other talk section articles i have written to see what i mean about the misuse of citations i do not intend to repeat myself, i have given hundreds of chances for good faith editing on these wikipedia pages to no avail i am consistently ignored when i post in the talk pages and people edit infoboxes at a whim.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 11:12, 22 September 2023 (UTC)