Talk:Battle of Muster Green

Good source for future reference

https://archive.org/details/sussexingreatciv00thomiala/page/xiv - the entire book 'Sussex in the great Civil War and the interregnum, 1642-1660' able to be viewed in script form or the original scanned in book for free. Contains a brief but invaluable mention of the battle of Muster Green which can easily be found on the script format by searching 'Hayward's' using word/phrase search (control+f - default on windows 10). TheBestEditorInEngland (talk) 00:25, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

pages 48,49 also references Godwin, George Nelson. 1904. The Civil War in Hampshire (1642-45) and the Story of Basing House; Southampton : H. M. Gilbert and son ; London, J. and E. Bumpus, ltd. http://archive.org/details/civilwarinhampsh00godwrich. page 54-55 of that work. --Erp (talk) 06:58, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

@Erp: Thank you for listing and finding that second source. There is information there about the battle on page 54 and page 55 which is invaluable for the 'prelude' and 'battle' sections of this article which I could not have found anywhere else. It does make me wonder where the original source for this is and what it was; because the book contains many quotes I'm guessing there is a written contemporary narrative account of the engagement? Perhaps hidden away in a county archive or something like that. TheBestEditorInEngland (talk) 01:35, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

One item seems to have been a report to Parliament about the encounter so I suspect a London source. We probably need a local historian (possibly the Cuckfield Museum curator). The Sealed Knot also reenacted the battle a few decades ago (beside the more recent reenactment at Glynde) so they may know some sources. --Erp (talk) 03:45, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Erp: Thanks for the suggestions, I'll send an email to Cuckfield Museum and see if they either have the source, a copy of it, or know where it could be currently located. I'm positive the source would be in the form of, as you mentioned, a report − the one written by the Roundheads after the battle that gave parliament word of victory at Haywards Heath on 8th December. TheBestEditorInEngland (talk) 01:23, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

map

A map of the key places might help. A rough first go is to use the templates though Lewes is actually in the inset. It is a pity that south east England or even Sussex as a whole is not a map available (yet) especially since Muster Green was in East Sussex at the time (in so far as East Sussex existed then). I suspect that the Royalist forces were planning to go down the valley of the Ouse [which you can just see on the map] to Lewes --Erp (talk) 04:32, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Muster Green

Chichester

Lewes

Cuckfield

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Battle site (in yellow) in relation to Chichester and Lewes

Great work on making this! I think it may be worth adding this map into the article itself, even if Lewes is in the inset, as most people reading the article won't be familiar with Sussex and the major settlements there. It would make sense for Ford to have travelled through the Ouse Valley to Lewes as the river cuts Lewes somewhat in half. I don't know why there isn't a Sussex map yet and I don't know who makes these maps/where they come from but I'm hoping one comes soon as a map like this but with the whole of Sussex in view will help a lot in terms of context for this article and many others. TheBestEditorInEngland (talk) 21:55, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

@Erp: I've added the map into the article but no matter where I place it, it stays where it is now, halfway between the prelude and battle sections (I would preferably want it at the very beginning of the prelude as by that point the reader has just been introduced the sentence before with Ford's intentions on capturing Lewes (and of Ford's capture of Chichester the sentence before that). I was assuming if you made the map you might know how to sort out the positioning of the map in the main article. TheBestEditorInEngland (talk) 22:26, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Where it appears depends on the width of the window since the infobox will push it down if it is on the left. Right appears a bit too abrupt. We can also adjust the map size (I made the one on the talk page a bit larger and added Cuckfield). --Erp (talk) 00:40, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

The person who did the maps seems to be inactive. Admittedly we could try to go for a map of the era. A 1646 map of Sussex exists though, since my German is almost non-existent, I'm not sure of the copyright status (i.e., could we upload it to the commons or use it as a base for something we could upload). https://aleph.unibas.ch/F/?local_base=DSV01&con_lng=GER&func=find-b&find_code=SYS&request=000992490 --Erp (talk) 00:56, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Muster Green origin

I note the source for the name is not definite on the origin of the name "Muster Green" as "it is understood that its name derives from the area’s use as a muster point for the militia at the time of the English Civil War"; given that the name appears on a 1638 map (i.e., before the Civil War) the English Civil War as the origin seems a bit unlikely and it could be older. We could do with a firmer source or else the article should be similarly indefinite. BTW it seems one building adjacent to the green is dated to the late 16th century so would have been present then: The Sergison Arms Public House aka The Dolphin aka Miller & Carter Steakhouse and known as the Hen Davis House in 1638 (https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101025473-the-sergison-arms-public-house-haywards-heath https://lifeinhaywardsheath.blogspot.com/2020/01/haywards-heath-vi-pubs.html) --Erp (talk) 02:53, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@Erp: I've also found a second building that would have been present at the time of the battle, just called "the old house" (https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101025503-the-old-house-haywards-heath#.XqgMnmhKiUk) which is just north of the eastern side of Muster Green and looking at the map, it appears to be "Mr Viccars House". In relation to the 1638 map, could the 1638 map on the link you shared be a copy of the original manorial map on this?: (lifeinhaywardsheath.blogspot.com/2018/12/haywards-heath-illustrated-history_16.html). What is on the original map can't really be made out at all, but if the map you shared is indeed a copy of it as I believe it is, would that place Muster (Mouster) Green originally south of the present B2272 and thus the actual battlefield is currently built and developed on? Or was it either side of the rode, the present 'Muster' Green being the northern half (or am I just over complicating it and the label "Mouster Green" was put below due to lack of space)? I think either the original or copy of the 1638 manorial map of Haywards Heath (preferably the copy as it's easier to read) should be located to have a closer look at, the current snippets we have available obviously just being parts of the larger map, which I assume should be free of copyright after 400 years so long as the photograph is only of the map. I'll also remove the note about the origin of the name since it is incorrect. TheBestEditorInEngland (talk) 12:16, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I did see a mention in one of the sources that the current Muster Green is a remnant of the original with the rest developed. The Haywards Heath Society apparently printed a copy of the 1638 map at one time so some modern copies may be around. The manuscript number is WSRO Add Ms. 28784 (West Sussex Record Office) --Erp (talk) 06:50, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll look into that more. I'll have to find that source as I think that fact would be worth including in the article – I myself always wondered why it was called the Battle of Muster Green when Muster Green itself today is extremely narrow and so wouldn't have made up the mass of the battlefield due to very few troops being able to deploy and thus fight on it from north to south and so why it was called that eluded me; Muster Green only being a remnant of its former size answers that question. TheBestEditorInEngland (talk) 20:35, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

The "Haywards Heath Historic Character Assessment Report September 2005" mentions the Dolphin road being built having made it smaller but that would only account for a small bit. Note that the battle may well have ranged further than the bit that gives it a name (the Battle of Stirling Bridge didn't occur just on the bridge). We really need a good copy of the 1638 map. --Erp (talk) 02:09, 3 May 2020 (UTC)