Talk:Battle of Mardanpur

Sources

Ronnie Macroni Please always make be diligent in ensuring the sources you add meet Wikipedia's standard of reliability. As a general rule of thumb, the sources you add should, at the very least, be authored by someone who as a PhD in the topic at hand (history, political science, anthropology etc). A Master's or Bachelor degree is not sufficient. Books published by academic publishers which implement peer review in their apparatus such as Taylor and Francis, Springer, Rowman and Littlefield, Anthem Press etc are particularly encouraged, although it isn't a requirement as long as the author's expertise is sufficient. Organizations like the Institute for Sikh Studies or Sikh Missionary College are not reliable, peer reviewed, and unbiased publishers and should not be used on Wikipedia. PhDs in irrelavant subjects like English or Punjabi languages, or a medical PhD for example [1] are not applicable and cannot be used in history articles. If you're in dobut about whether the author has a PhD in a relevant topic, it's best to avoid them. For example, HS Singha has "Dr" appended before his name [2], but it's unclear what discipline it belongs to, in addition, all his books were published by Hemkunt Press, an unreliable publisher, ergo his work should be avoided on Wikipedia. Just make sure that you always implement this rule and you should be in the clear. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 00:28, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, please see [3], this applies to history articles in general. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 00:44, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

not to be part of this discussion but curious as to where does it says in Wikipedia rules that "A Master's or Bachelor degree is not sufficient" about an author? There are numerous articles on Wikipedia that have scholars with masters and bachelors degree. As long as the authors have degree (any) in their accredited area of profession, sources are all fine. And publishers are all ok as long as they are reliable. 2601:547:B05:1234:3910:CEFA:262C:62B2 (talk) 01:30, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Please ignore this unsubstainated, faceitious comment by a banned sock. He's trying to mislead others and only serves as a detriment to the encyclopedia. We absolutely do not allow just any publisher's work or any author with just a Bachelor's or Master's. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 01:40, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Ignore this former sock making such whimsical comment. There is no such rule that says that publisher's work with any author holding just bachelors and masters degree is not allowed. + numerous articles on Wikipedia has sources from such authors. Much experienced and well known editors on Wikipedia can provide more insight into this as well. 2601:547:B05:1234:3910:CEFA:262C:62B2 (talk) 01:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I seem to agree. Masters and bachelor’s are suitable. We can bring in admin if you want to decide. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 04:30, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Per the Reliable Sources Noticeboard Archive Just as a note, we generally don't regard master's theses as reliable sources in and of themselves. Prometheus books is an imprint of Globe Pequot Press, which itself appears to be a popular press publication. I don't see why a popular press book published by someone who has a master's would alone make it a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia—it's probably more reliable stuff than WP:RANDY, but I'm not really all that convinced that the publisher subjects books to significant editorial review. from [4] and A master's thesis would generally fall short of a RS. from [5]

I will see if I can find some more information later. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:41, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I suppose a masters can be used in certain situations such as supporting other sources. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 08:07, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

+ above comments from reliable source noticeboard archive are completely irrelevant as those are discussions and thoughts on a different subject matter such as long essays/theses on nutrition and IEEE. These comments are not the rules posted by Wikipedia Policy. One of the comments that "A master's thesis would generally fall short of a RS" is from a indef blocked editor back in 2013. I do not see any official rule by Wikipedia written on their policies that specifically states that "A Masters and bachelors degree is not allowed or sufficient". If there is such, then bring such Wikipedia policy page forward. 2601:547:B05:44A4:9514:8A47:83D8:BA97 (talk) 11:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Suthasianhistorian8 CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 21:17, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

A Master's degree isn't very high on the academic reputation scale. The problem with the sources which you are challenging is that they are many, variate, written by people regarded as authorities (e.g. published by Cambridge University Press or upon the websites of other reputable universities). Even if some of them would be unreliable, this cannot hold for all of them. per [6].

Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses. Emphasis on the material is published by well regarded academic presses and reputable peer-reviewed sources. Wikipedia is even stringent on completed PhD dissertations, prefering that caution be exercised with citing them, unless it can be proven that the dissertation was subject to rigorous academic peer review, either from specialists within the field or from independent researchers, its suitability for Wikipedia further bolstered if it was cited in literature. Wikipedia generally does not allow master's theses to be cited on Wikipedia per the Reliable Sources Noticeboard Archives which you are free to check for yourself, unless it can be proven that it had significant scholarly vetting and peer review. If Wikipedia is so stringent with even PhD dissertations, naturally Master's are accorded much less acceptance, given that a Master's is lower in the educational expertise gradation. So to conclude things, WP:SCHOLARSHIP and RSN proves that yes PhD graduates are suitable for Wikipedia's purposes, Master's graduates are generally not to be used unless their work was cited in literature and subject to thorough academic peer review. Work by a Master's graduate cannot be used on Wikipedia unless it is peer reviewed. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 05:49, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

PS: Take a look at this [7], a master's degree is typicall intended for a career outside of academia. It usually takes 1-2 years to complete as opposed to a PhD which takes much longer and involves much, much more research. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 06:07, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

The RSN statement is in regards to discussion over the sources on merits of Lion Vs Tiger article and needs reliable source from a zoo keeper or profession in similar field. So a historian's opinion which is completely irrelavant to the subject is naturally unreliable. Spiro may very well be qualified to write on "The Jewish impact on Civilization", but there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that he is an expert on lions and tigers. There is a whole lot of discussion on that topic by different editors and once again does not conclude any officially written statement that "A Masters and bachelors degree is not allowed or sufficient". I think if this statement was true then there should not be an issue adding such clear statement on the wikipedia policy such as WP:RS or even WP:SCHOLARSHIP, but no where does it make such statement. Even comments put forward from WP:SCHOLARSHIP doesn't provide any conclusion as you have interpreted it as how you have understood it when actually dissertation or research paper isn't the source we are talking about. I am looking at various articles from Maratha Empire to Rana Pratap and even religious articles, which use sources from non-PHD historians, even without peer review and even you have used source by Jasabīra Siṅgha Āhalūwālīā. So best bet here to come to any final conclusion is to bring a reputable admin (preferably someone you have not communicated with before) and make a final decision in regards to whether a master and bachelor degree holder in the area of their profession such as historian, is not allowed or insufficient for Wikipedia articles. 2601:547:B05:2229:6D94:1B89:8081:5294 (talk) 11:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)