Talk:Battle of Kannanur

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Orphaned references in Battle of Kannanur

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Battle of Kannanur's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "great":

From Veera Ballala III: Chopra, Ravindran and Subrahmanian (2003), p.156
From Vijayanagara Empire: Nilakanta Sastri 1955, p. 250

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:00, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Title and result

The event should be named as Battle of Madurai, since it is more applicable than using Kannanur. The victor of the battle was Madurai sultanate. Ajayraj890 (talk) 01:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@49.207.206.106, talk here about the result. I prefer not to involve in an edit war. Ajayraj890 (talk) 12:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Sultan marched against Vira Ballals III who had beseiged Kannanur and who was on the point of taking it. Victory in this battle swayed for a while this side and that but finally the engagement ended in Hoysala defeat and the death in battle field of Vira Ballala III."^[1]. You have cited from a source named Hoysala Vamsh, but it didn't covered the entire context. Even though Hoysala army emerged victorious in the first skirmish, they were defeated by the Madurai forces. Ajayraj890 (talk) 12:56, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilvering, could you please check what's happening here? The user @49.207.206.106 have reverted the edits without proper explanation. The problem is with the result of the Battle of Kannanur. The user is using the source named Hoysala Vamsh, wherein the context didn't actually covers the topic intentionally or accidentally. I have quoted from a source above and I can provide multiple quotations. Please make an action before it is too late. Ajayraj890 (talk) 13:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajayraj890 You're totally wrong and stop this war edit, the Hoysala Vamsh is a book based on complete history of Hoysalas, Ballala III didn't died on the battle field and many historians like Krishnaswamy Aiyangar refer the battle field as Kannanur not Madhurai, Ballala III was 80 as per inscriptions and was killed when he was found alone during a siege by Madhurai Sultanates, he didn't die in the battle and live for 10 months and died when he was captured and not during the battle, all the citations prove the results with supportive statements and why are you removing them again and again?

Battle of Kannanur and Siege of Kannunur are different took place 10 months after the Battle of Kannanur

The Hoysaḷa vaṁśa. CatTheMeow (talk) 07:03, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If that is the case, remove {{KIA}} template from infobox. Ajayraj890 (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add those information into the article too. Ajayraj890 (talk) 10:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajayraj890 Yes, this article is a real mess - it's conflated two different occasions into a single battle. The text is more or less directly copied from the one source, but that source never calls either of them "The Battle of Kannanur", hence the confusion. (This is a good example of why we should not be inventing names for battles that historians have not used themselves!) -- asilvering (talk) 02:06, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There should be two pages sperataly one "Battle of Kannanur" two "Siege of Kannanur", and you didn't include Hoysala victory in the result, & included only about his capture CatTheMeow (talk) 06:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@CatTheMeow Are there sources that call this "Battle of Kannanur" or "Siege of Kannanur"? -- asilvering (talk) 17:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilvering Historian Krishnaswami Aiyangar refers the Battle field as Kannanur, so the Battle was known as 'Battle of Kannanur' and Ballala III after his victory resided there in a fort for 10 months where the Sultans who marched and put a siege and captured Ballala III when he was found alone and aged, see the citations CatTheMeow (talk) 02:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@CatTheMeow Infobox should only contain the final result and the changes happened due to it. That is why in the Umayyad campaigns in India, the initial victories of Umayyads are not mentioned, but the final result in which their expansion got halted is included. Ajayraj890 (talk) 04:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilvering, yes. I was confused that how Ballala III was killed in a battle he won. So, where should be the information regarding the second conflict should be added? Infact, that was way more important than this event since it resulted the execution of Ballala and the decline of Hoysala dynasty. Ajayraj890 (talk) 08:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajayraj890 It's there now, I simply put new headings on both. But if we don't have sources that call this "Battle of Kannaur", it should be dealt with wherever it makes most sense, like the articles about the ruler and his kingdom. -- asilvering (talk) 17:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilvering, I've just learned that some sources refer to this event as the 'Battle of Kannanur,' in which Ballala III met his demise. Historians often treat the battle and the siege as a single event. Interestingly, Coelho is the only one who didn't provide an explanation for the subsequent siege. You have the correct version, and it only requires some copy editing and I can do that. The sources that mentions this event as 'Battle of Kannanur' are:

1. The Quarterly Journal of the Mythic Society (Bangalore). (cannot be used due to WP:RAJ)

2. Topics in South Indian History: From Early Times Upto 1565 A.D.

3. History of Tamilnad: To A.D. 1565.

4. Early Vijayanagara. Ajayraj890 (talk) 04:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ History of South India, Ancient period volume I. 1979. p. 213.

Divertion+ confusion

User @Ajayraj890 simply diverting the topic & creating confusion amongst the readers. As he mentioned strength of(whole article not first battle) Here was of only first battle & there should be a separate article for second battle. I am surprised quite as @User:Asilvering why you didn't catched this big mistake? Though now I have edited it by explaining in summary box Thank you Aryan330 (talk) 04:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can't simply do that. Did you actually read the above conversations? I have provided some source that claims Ballala was defeated and killed in the 'Battle of Kannanur'. So according to historians, both of the conflicts are considered as a single event. Moreover, we can't just create a new article named 'Siege of Kannanur' because no historian mentioned that as verbatim in thier books. So I am reverting your edits. Thank you. Ajayraj890 (talk) 04:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] History of South India, Ancient period volume I. 1979. p. 213.

[1]