Talk:Battle of Geneina

First Battle?

Do we usually label battles as 1st before a subsequent one has begun?64.43.183.222 (talk) 01:29, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

No, I changed it. Yxuibs (talk) 03:50, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Infobox footnote?

The infobox currently has a footnote claiming "To delete parts of the phases or to add please discuss in the talk page before any changes". Shouldn't this belong in a comment inside the source code, rather than a footnote displayed in the article itself, as it is only indented for editors rather than any reader? It feels quite unencyclopedic to have it out in the open like this. Chaotic Enby (talk) 12:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

RSF Victory or Ongoing?

The original article for the battle mentioned a quick RSF seizure of Geneina on April 15, a second capture on May 2, and a third capture of the city on May 14. I could not find any source for this, and the sources used to back the claims up did not mention anything about an RSF capture of Geneina. Most talked about the battle in Khartoum, and even then, not an RSF capture of the city. It seems these RSF victory claims are unfounded, and due to repeated inclusions of the material, I was wondering if anyone could corroborate this. Jebiguess (talk) 16:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jebiguess Literally read the Middle East Eye article it states:

"The scene in al-Geneina, capital of West Darfur state, is completely different. There, the RSF and its allies have complete control, with the army nowhere to be seen.

Sources in the city told MEE that the RSF and its allied tribal militias quashed any hint of resistance by killing civilians and setting much of al-Geneina on fire, including government offices, homes and the market.

An eyewitness from the Hai al-Shati neighbourhood said the army attempted to counter the RSF in the city on 23 April, before being beaten back, with its soldiers now withdrawn into the military headquarters, where they remain." - Middle East Eye NYMan6 (talk) 19:00, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

So far, MEE is the only source I see reporting an RSF victory for the second battle. The Sudan Tribune article mentioned in the Wiki one states a ceasefire was put in place strictly between RSF and SAF, albeit tribal clashes were likely to begin.

"Mediation led by leaders from the Native Administration and the Governor of South Darfur, Hamid al-Tijani Hanoun, resulted in a temporary halt to the fighting between the army and the Rapid Support Forces."

Not to mention, the MEE article and the quote above states "There, the RSF and its allies have complete control, with the army nowhere to be seen." Given the context of the preceding paragraph, which talked about Minawi's Joint Darfur Force being used in El Fasher, the statement could also be seen as the SAF is hardly fighting in Geneina rather than RSF having control of the city of Geneina.

On the other hand, it is hard to tell whether the Sudan Tribune article is describing the situation in Nyala or Geneina with that statement. It is possible that clashes simply simmered down inconclusively in Geneina after May 2. Jebiguess (talk) 05:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

On "phases" in dates

To say that every pause or attempted ceasefire in fighting represents a completely new "phase" in fighting is untrue. No sources describe a "first" or "second" or "third" or "fourth" phase of fighting in Geneina, and if every pause in fighting is treated as the battle taking a whole new form, then we may end up with well over ten phases of this single battle. They aren't really useful in explaining the battle, and, either way, the "Date" section of a battles' article rarely ever specifies different phases of fighting. Such info is usually not included in the infobox at all, and if it is, it's generally referred to in the "Result" section, in case each phase has different results. In this case, there is already a good amount of detail that goes into the status of the battle, so the phases don't really have a use, or a justification to be there Presidentofyes12 (talk) 19:15, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. The status section adequately shows the scope and results of each phase per se, and the time in between each phase is not complete peace, just less intense fighting. Adding the phase information to the date clutters the infobox and waters down the reality of the conflict. Jebiguess (talk) 22:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

El Geneina Massacre page

10,000 killed? Surely this deserves its own page. Teutonkahmun (talk) 15:17, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

10,000 is not a reliable number. It is what the Masalit leader, Sultan Saad Bahar al-Deen had said. There has been an investigation by the ICC] but no one is using the word genocide or massacre beside locals. Maybe wait or add to the Human rights violations by the Rapid Support Forces (Sudan) article FuzzyMagma (talk) 15:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't say adding it to the Human rights violations by the Rapid Support Forces (Sudan) article, 11,000(+) its very unspecified but it is what we have gathered there could be thousands and thousands more dead it just hasn't been fully confirmed. 2601:183:4081:FEA0:4B3:4D19:D9D:F681 (talk) 22:37, 17 August 2023 (UTC) 2601:183:4081:FEA0:4B3:4D19:D9D:F681 (talk) 22:37, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Please don’t speculate or do any original research as you did with your recent edit. Just find a reliable source first, then edit FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:48, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

It's not like reliable sources are usually wrong too cf. 10,000 98.109.137.129 (talk) 11:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Regardless of the death toll, the massacre has become half of the page of the battle, and even through the battle, the killings were a heavy focus of most news articles. Jebiguess (talk) 17:15, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

In January (January 15, 2024) the Panel of Experts on Sudan (panel advising the UN Security Council on sanctions against parties to the conflict) Issued a Final Report. They placed the number of casualties in El Gemeina at 10,000-15,000.

https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n24/005/64/pdf/n2400564.pdf?token=ft4fs3FdWAdUWj7jyN&fe=true

This and all pages on the Sudanese War 2023 need to update, as the casualties on these pages are seriously low compared to reality. Machinetomakecoffee (talk) 22:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I cannot access the link, can you write down the title and author, and I will google it FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Extension

After the clashes in the northern part of Geneina this week, killed 800 people. I'm looking for a expansion of the article possibly. There's a lot of new sources talking about the West Darfur atrocities, primarily the Geneina massacre. So we could use this moment to extend the article further add new info.

Any thoughts?

Subaru2000 (talk) 14:11, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

are you talking about Ardamata massacre? FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 26 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. A COMMONNAME analysis wasn't made; perhaps that could've changed the result, but there wasn't much attention on that topic. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

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Battle of Geneina → Geneina massacre – Referring to the page as the Battle of Geneina made sense when it was first created, but the June massacres and new details and reports revealing the amount of the destruction and killings shows that this was moreso a coordinated campaign of massacres and attacks by the RSF and allied militias against the Masalit people in Geneina, with just about every source highlighting the genocidal massacres and atrocities over the clashes. Jebiguess (talk) 03:00, 26 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 06:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 03:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: I think we should separate the two pages, similar to the Darfur war and Darfur genocide. Geneina massacre will surely be further investigated (there are already an ICC and HRW investigation ongoing) and I am sure we will get more details about the massacre itself, away from the battle that ensued at the begging. FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  The sources all show, however, that the battles were more self-defense by Masalit militias from RSF attacks. There were battles, but they ended in massacres. Jebiguess (talk) 20:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  There is a part about the Sudanese army garrison at Ardamata fleeing towards the Chadian border, and there is - according to HRW report - retaliation from Masalit against civilian too (not a massacre by any means but part of the battle context). Again I am really not opposing on the basis that this was not a massacre (or even a genocide) but I prefer articles - especially about atrocities - to be focused, again the example of the Darfur war and Darfur genocide is very relevant and should be considered in this discussion.

  Btw also if look to Second Sudanese Civil War, we have tried separate massacres from clashes, just for the sake of keep articles focused. I mean that why we have an article about War crimes during the Sudanese civil war (2023–present) just to document these atrocities in a focused article. hope this make sense. FuzzyMagma (talk) 21:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

"massacre" is not neutral, and you need to show that it is a WP:COMMONNAME before it is accepted as title.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.