Talk:Barely Real

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Barely Real/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MarioSoulTruthFan (talk · contribs) 10:03, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi, I'm MarioSoulTruthFan and I'll be reviewing this article anytime in the next 4-5 days. Do not make changes until I say so.

Infobox

• Needs alt.

Alt's aren't actully needed for a GA review to pass, but I've added it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

If you intend to promote it to FA, I have saved you trouble. Besides, it's more complete.

• If recorded is cited below doesn't need a reference here.

Since Barely Real has a somewhat confusing recording history, a lot of what appeared on the original album did not get included in the recording session. I feel like it would be shoe-horned into the article to just stay that the original recordings that appear on the EP were recording at this point, so I've included a specific reference here. It goes into detail about when failed recordings sessions happened in the article already. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Noted and accepted. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• See producers discrepancy on a section below.

 Done

Lead

• the a 1992 extended play by the American indie rock band Codeine → the 1992 extended play (EP) by American indie rock band Codeine.

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• After a releasing their previous album Frigid Stars LP in 1990 → After releasing their previous album Frigid Stars LP in 1990

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• group accepted an invitation from the group Bastro → group accepted an invitation from the quartet Bastro

Well, I don't know how many people were in Bastro at this exact time, but I guess this is okay. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

It's just to change a bit the repetitive vocabulary.

• as often found themselves with unusable recordings over several different studios → since it found themselves often with unusable tracks over several different studios

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk)

• as Barely Real → as an EP

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk)

• that AllMusic → remove this, otherwise it seems that the critical reception is all over the place.

Well, it's describing the genre, not the album, but okay. Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• The recording included original material, → have you forgotten something here?

Uhh uhh uhh. No excuse here. Okay. removed. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• contributing guitar to the song "Jr" → playing the guitar on the song "Jr"

Not sure if I want to say this as it sounds like John Engle didn't play guitar on this section if I phrase it this way. But changed in the meantime for now. Maybe makie "played additional guitar" or something.Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

The way you said it's just perfect, use that. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• which led him → remove this

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• Barely Real had one single released and was initially released in Germany through Sub Pop, followed by release in the United States in 1993. → the single was?

added single name ("Realize"). Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• he band toured North American → he band toured North America

Gah. Fixed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• 2012 which included → in 2012, including...

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Background and production

• "To prepare for the tour, Codeine and Bastro met in a studio to record the song "Produkt" and "A l'Ombre de Nouse" as a seven-inch single for the label Glitterhouse. The two groups alternated as the headlining band and toured for 18 nights in Austria, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, and Switzerland. Chris Brokaw commented that the group had very mixed reactions from the audiences. In Vienna, the group played to 600 people who "hung on to every note we played" and that it was "one of the best shows of my life". In contrast, they later played in Austria to an audience of 70 or 80 where he felt that the audience would "just walk up and beat us senseless". → Shouldn't this be in the tour section, move it.

I think it's a bit chronologically confusing to move this section to that. What I'm trying to point here is when the songs "Produkt" and "A l'Ombre de Nouse" were recorded and what the band was doing prior to recording Barely Real. The two previously mentioned songs were included as bonus tracks on the re-release of the EP, so I think mentioning them here is appropriate. Maybe I should just drop out some more of the tour location stuff and keep the song recording information.Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Good idea, do the latter. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

It occurred to me that you could do two sections one called "Background" and other called "production", this way the information in each section would be better distributed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 09:09, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I've cropped some of it out a bit. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• Immerwahr was not content with the recordings, noting several issues: he was unhappy with his own vocals, he wanted the group to be record slower tempos, and that he heard high pitched noises in the recordings that no one else could hear → Immerwahr was not content with the recordings, noting several issues such as: his vocals, he wanted to record slower tempos, and the presence of high pitched noises in the recordings that no one else could hear.

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

We need to fix this again. It still doesn't sound okay this part "he wanted to record slower tempos". I was thinking about "the presence of too many uptempos"? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• Unlink Jon Fine

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• Toxic Shock, the Boston studio, and Night Owl. → Toxic Shock, Night Owl, and the Boston studio.

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• On realizing their recordings were not going to be enough for their album The White Birch → re-word

I've given it a shot. How does that look? Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC

Perfect. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• After recording the album, Brokaw left Codeine to focus on his band Come. Brokaw later stated that "Leaving Codeine broke my heart. We all still liked each other". After giving notice to the rest of the band, Engle and Immerwahr did a music video for "Realize" without Brokaw. Engle explained that it took a while replace Brokaw. When he placed a classified ad in a New York paper, he ended up "flooded with calls" and that "Half of them hadn't heard Codeine. I'd say, well, we play a very particular style that you should really know about". The group chose Doug Scharin, who had attended Codeine's first show in Boston." → It has nothing to do with this section, he still recorded the drums for this EP!

Not exactly true. The tour that went along with the EP did not have him in the group, I'm sure some readers would like to know how the band found a replacement so fast. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes they would, still you can reduce those five lines to 2/3, right? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Shrunk down a bit. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• This section is jut too big, you have to reduce it. It's three times the size of the others.

I'm thinking of cutting down the tour information that's early in production, just maybe state they toured with Bastro and recorded those songs and that it was a European tour. Any suggestions on what else to cut? Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Do that for now, I will come up with something later, after giving it a second read. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• You use too much the word recording → change it for song, track...; the same goes for recorded → tapped

Cleaned up per your instructions.Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Music

• "Stephen Immerwhar, who wrote the lyrics to the original songs on Barely Real described composing lyrics as "probably the hardest work. Not that we have these prodigious texts, but there's a consistency between the lyrical subject and content and the presentation of the music". → Stephen Immerwhar, who wrote the lyrics to the original songs on Barely Real, described composing these lyrics as "probably the hardest work. Not that we have these prodigious texts, but there's a consistency between the lyrical subject and content and the presentation of the music". → he only found it hard for this album, be careful with the full stops and quotes.

True. Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

• "When being asked about the lyrics on Barely Real and The White Birch..." → When he was asked regarding the lyrics on Barely Real and The White Birch...

Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Immerwhar said preferred" → Immerwhar said to prefer or Immerwhar said he preferred

Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

• "And I was figuring out that there were different sources of the same feelings that seemed to inspire earlier Codeine songs" → doesn't concur to the previous quote, because he was talking in the third person (narrator) and now is in the first person (Immerwhar), keep the person and the tenses.

Okay, I think I've fixed that. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Stewart Mason (AllMusic)" → Stewart Mason of AllMusic

Changed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

• Link "previous album" to Frigid Stars LP

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

• )." while a review of the compilation album When I See The Sun → comma before "while" and that doesn't sound like a comparsiion at all it needs words like "when comparing" or "while comparing"; unlink "When I See The Sun".

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• When asked about the music's pace, on Barely Real, Immerwahr said...

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Whatever kind of oppositional nature that Codeine had, I think it was more just the kind of over-the-top histrionic singing, the screaming of grunge bands and riffing and so on. Part of our reaction was a different mood, a different mood to our music and playing … It wasn't like, ‘Oh, we’re going to slow things down, that’s gonna mess people up.’ But certainly slowing things down and experiencing that, it was challenging for people and challenging for audiences. And I actually kind of like that." → use your own words every now and then, quote is just too long.

You are right. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• Ned Raggett (AllMusic) stated → AllMusic gave them two reviews or one is "contemporary" and the other is "retrospective", if that is the case you must say it and AllMusic's Ned Raggett commented.

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Release and tour

• Prior to the release of the EP, a single for "Barely Real" was released on July 1, 1992. It was released on as a seven-inch single on clear and whtie vinyl limited to 2,933 copies. → what was the single name?

OOps. That should say "Realize". :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• Immerwahr connected this with the bands own lyrical themes of an impossible need to connect with others → re-write.

Tried to fix this up.

• Following the European release of the album, Codeine and the band Love Child did a five-week European tour in late 1992. When the tour went through Vienna in 1992, the group stopped to visit the palace. → merge in one sentence.

Done, I think. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• stating → saying, explaining...

Replaced words. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• Needs a release history in the bottom with (country, date, format and label)

I am not really fond of these sections as I have no source for the formats and most people who do, just steal information from fan sites (fails WP:RS) and Discogs.com (which is also just user submitted material. I should know, I've submitted things myself). Adding this section, wouldn't add more information that isn't already in the prose. So for now I've added with what information I have, but I don't really find much use in it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Why don't you user iTunes, amazon and so on? They have the release dates. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:10, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Amazon I feel is a pretty weak source, as it' not really researched (nor does it state where it gets its information from). I like finding information from more specific sources, not a site that sells everything from albums to lightbulbs. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

I just laughed so hard! That was nice, I will remove the section then. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:13, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Reception

• Washington Post, Melody Maker, Alternative Press, Virgin Encyclopedia of Nineties Music should all be included in the scoreboard. You can have up to ten.

I'm against saying things like "favourable" or "very favourable" or "damn near negative" etc. for these sections in the rating box as they become easily slanted towards users (i.e: people like changing things from "positive" to "very positive", etc.) and it's not that these users are wrong, but it's just an interpretation. It's not stated explicitly in WP:ALBUMS anywhere that I can find, but we generally try to keep numeric, star, and grades there, not just interpretations. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

I can see where you are coming from, besides it mind sounds BIAS if it's a fan adding. Well pointed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:44, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Charles Aaron of Spin, reviewed the single "Realize", stating that the song "inches along as if Codeine's still wondering whether it's worth the effort". The b-side "Broken-hearted Wine" was described as a song that "coolly walks a delicate line between delibitating sadness and cartoon regret." → it doesn't talk about the album, only the single.

I kind of want to keep this in either way as it's still a contemporary review, and as the single really doesn't merit it's own article, I think information on any kind of reception (for a release from a relatively obscure band, and their even more relatively obscure single) could stand as it's still part of the reception and shows that it still received press coverage. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:27, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

If the source talks about the album you only have to say that those songs contributed for the albums genre, for instance, you must find a away of linking those songs to the album. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:19, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

• Use other words replacing "stating" or "stated" → said, explained, commented...

Replaced. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:27, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Track listing

• No need for two columns, just disrupts the entire article.
• "All songs written and composed..." → composed has producing and writing inherent to it, so you might want to say "All songs arranged and composed..."

To be fair, it doesn't say who "arranged" the songs, so I'm just going to go with lyrics. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

• Wasn't the album produced by Mike McMacklin and Codeine, so what is?

Not sure what is being asked here. Yes, the album was producer credits are for both those two. What is what? :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2016 (UTC

You had some discrepancy with the infobox but you fixed it. That was it, I also mentioned it above. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

• How come Side C and Side D don't have length?

Those tracks don't have time listings on the vinyl. I have a CD with those tracks I believe, I'll double check them when I'm home today. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

And done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Personnel

• Use " –" instead of "–" (click edit to copy properly)

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• No need for two columns, just disrupts the entire article.

Done. But I do find that a long list of things makes articles more messy and wastes white space, I'm not that hung up on it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas: you are right sometimes we need to try to see the result, revert this edit. I'm sorry and thank you MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

@MarioSoulTruthFan:, no problem. Changed back. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:05, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

See also

• Fine.

Notes

• The section you call notes will now be named "Footnotes".

done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

References

• Change the name of this section to "Sources".

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:44, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• You must create a section called "References", which will be subdivided in "Footnotes" and "Sources".

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:44, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Overall GA review

• Stephen Immerwahr, Ned Raggett and others are wilinked several times. Only the first time they appear on the article need wikilink, otherwise is WP:Overlinking

@Andrzejbanas: you have some serious issues in one section and there is another that doesn't look so good. I will put this on hold for seven days. Good luck! When you are done, please "Ping" me. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 13:06, 20 June 2016 (UTC) @Andrzejbanas: are you done with the changes? MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

@MarioSoulTruthFan: Hi. Sorry about the slow pace, it's been a busy week. I've started working about three jobs. There isn't as much time to wiki. I'll try and get it done tonight. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:45, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

@MarioSoulTruthFan:, okay. I think I've either addressed, or cleaned up most requests. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

2nd round of comments

Lead

• "It received positive reviews from Melody Maker and the Alternative Press on its initial release". → elaborate a little more, some sentences with them praising the album.

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

• "The album received positive reviews from Spin and Pitchfork Media". → change "positive reviews" to something else, it avoids repetitive vocabulary; plus same as previous.

Done. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Background and production

• "Immerwahr was not content with the tracks, noting several issues such as: his vocals, he wanted to record slower tempos, and the presence of high pitched noises in the songs that no one else could hear". → he wanted to record slower tempos, this particular sentence doesn't flow in there, "the lack of slower tempos recorded"?

tried to rephrase this one. How does it look? Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

• "Engle explained that it took a while replace Brokaw" → it could use something else, perhaps the reason if you merge with the following sentence it wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

tried to combine them a bit. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:44, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

• Great job here actually!

Track listing

You skipped "Tom" (Demo), it's still lacking length.  Done

Overall

• Slight changes, after you do them it will be GA.
• @Andrzejbanas: Can't stress this enough but fantastic job. @Ping me when you done with the changes. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 11:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• @MarioSoulTruthFan:, Thanks for sticking with me, I think I've gone through it all now. Glad I finally found time to check it out and attempt it. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas: no problem, gladly passing. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 09:50, 1 July 2016 (UTC)