The following are my proposed edits to the Barack Obama page, with the intent being to make it more objective and comprehensive, rather than painting a deceivingly rosy picture of him.
1. Proposed Edit to introduction section.
Original: "Obama is the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize laureate.[4]"
Proposed: "Obama is the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize laureate[4], an honor which accompanied widespread criticism about his lack of accomplishment[[1]][[2]] and confessed surprise by Barack Obama.[[3]][[4]],
2. Proposed Edit to 'State legislator: 1997–2004' section.
Original: "Obama was elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996, succeeding State Senator Alice Palmer as Senator from Illinois's 13th District, which at that time spanned Chicago South Side neighborhoods from Hyde Park-Kenwood south to South Shore and west to Chicago Lawn.[42]"
Proposed: "Obama was elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996, succeeding State Senator Alice Palmer as Senator from Illinois's 13th District, which at that time spanned Chicago South Side neighborhoods from Hyde Park-Kenwood south to South Shore and west to Chicago Lawn.[42] Obama won the election through use of lawyers to subsequently disqualify the petition signatures of Alice Palmer and 3 other opponents after the filing deadline.[[5]][[6]]"
3. Proposed Edit to 'State legislator: 1997-2004' section.
Original: "In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Illinois Senate's Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority.[48] He sponsored and led unanimous, bipartisan passage of legislation to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and legislation making Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations.[44][49]"
Proposed: "In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Illinois Senate's Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority.[48] He sponsored and led unanimous, bipartisan passage of legislation to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and legislation making Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations.[44][49] This legislation was originally worked on by Senator Rickey Hendon[[7]][[8]], and was among numerous pieces of legislation given to Obama as part of a requested deal with his political mentor[[9]][[10]], Senator Emil Jones.[[11]][[12]]"
4. Proposed Edit to '2004 U.S. Senate campaign'.
Original: "Obama's expected opponent in the general election, Republican primary winner Jack Ryan, withdrew from the race in June 2004.[58] Two months later, Alan Keyes accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan.[59] A long-time resident of Maryland, Keyes established legal residency in Illinois with the nomination.[60] In the November 2004 general election, Obama received 70% of the vote to Keyes' 27%, the largest victory margin for a statewide race in Illinois history.[61]"
Proposed: "Obama's expected opponent in the general election, Republican primary winner Jack Ryan, withdrew from the race in June 2004[58] following a widely-reported sex scandal.[[13]] 2 months later, and with less than 3 months remaining in the election[[14]], former Ambassador to the United Nations' Social and Economic Council[[15]], Alan Keyes, accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan.[59] A long-time resident of Maryland, Keyes established legal residency in Illinois with the nomination.[60] Following a race in which Keyes was heavily criticized as a 'carpetbagger'[[16]] by the press, and with Keyes running a negative campaign criticizing Obama on the issue of late-term abortions[[17]], Obama in the November 2004 general election received 70% of the vote to Keyes' 27%, the largest victory margin for a statewide race in Illinois history.[61]"
Ultimately I may add more suggestions later but this I think is a good start and comprises the bulk of the elaborations about his past I would like to see. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- In other news, an amputee has recalled that losing his legs "stings a little bit". Sceptre (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'll review them seriously when I have a chance. Whether we agree or not in the end, I appreciate your taking the invitation to start a new section and propose them straight, one at a time. I hope we can all keep up a dignified, collegial, supportive spirit discussing them (kicking several editors, and myself, under the table... ahem!). Thanks! - Wikidemon (talk) 05:52, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Alright, I look forward to talking about this objectively, thanks for the offer! --Jzyehoshua (talk) 06:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't taken the time to study the other suggestions yet, but the first one, I think, has immediately obvious problems. The introduction should not be longer than is necessary. The mention that he is the laureate merely acknowledges that he did receive the prize. It does not, in any way, project any position on whether he deserved that prize or not. You are proposing a change that changes that statement from being purely NPOV to one that could be called POV. We haven't even had enough time to see how history has judged the 2009 prize, so why are we mentioning this in an article that is supposed to provide an accurate overview of his entire life? WHSL (Talk) 05:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, just to play Devil's Advocate here, if George Bush received a Nobel Peace Prize and got criticized for it, and we put that in the intro paragraph, people would be up in arms that it was merely mentioned without the opposition factor being mentioned as well. On Bush's page, for example, it spends many sentences discussing the issues of criticism and popularity loss just in the introduction. When an award receives as much criticism and controversy as Obama's Nobel Prize did, to not mention this even in passing in the prominent introduction is to essentially frame the fact in a positive and deceivingly so light. I do think the criticism/controversy should be mentioned at least in passing, or else not mention the award at all, or it is appearing to only provide positive details in the introduction section, in contrast to other profiles (such as George Bush's).
- As for the 16 additional words used in the introduction, I think they are worthwhile for balancing out an introduction section that otherwise fails to mention ANY negative or critical aspect whatsoever. This is in sharp contrast to other political profiles which carry no such qualms about mentioning a critical fact or mention in the introduction to provide a more accurate and two-sided summary.
- --Jzyehoshua (talk) 06:06, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Bush's page does discuss issues relating to his declining popularity. However, consider when Bush was president. His presidency is now over. It is history. We have had more time to consider the finer points of his presidency. However, Obama's winning of the Nobel Prize is in the recent past. We have not had the time to consider the historical implications of the 2009 prize. You cannot judge how historically controversial something actually was this early.
Also, your statement regarding "positive details" is not one I would agree with at all. I can't see anywhere statements like "he is rated a very popular president". How can something be overly positive if you cannot find obviously positive statements? Could you point me to the specific places where you think the introduction is apparently POV? WHSL (Talk) 06:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- I very much disagree. I see no difference. For one thing, Hurricane Katrina happened pretty recently too and there is criticism of Bush about that on his profile. If the Iraq War was happening right now, criticism of him about that would be warranted as well. There were protests about that and it was clearly controversial just as there are clearly controversial issues surrounding Obama right now as well. Controversy can be assessed at any time. If numerous news outlets are reporting on it or there are mass protests going on, then it makes sense to mention this in passing.
- As for examples of the positive details, it is more what it does mention in contrast to what it does not. It mentions he was president of the Harvard Law Review, but does not mention he published only one article while there.[[18]] It mentions he won the Nobel Peace Prize but none of the controversy that surrounded this, and led to criticism of the committee responsible for awarding the prize. It skims over all his accomplishments while never mentioning anything involving controversy or criticism. If one did not know better, you would think he had no controversy at all surrounding him who makes no waves and not the polarizing figure his presidency is showing him to be. It could mention his excessively liberal voting record or the protests against his lack of a birth certificate. Or that the stimulus and health care bills he made primary talking points are facing skepticism by the American people and delays in Congress, and he has taken criticism from his own party for backing off of his earlier promises on withdrawing troops and continuing the Guantanamo military commissions. Maybe his record drop off in public support, which set a record low for any president at that point in their presidency[[19]]. Again though, from Wikipeda, you would never even consider it from reading the intro. As far as the intro makes it look, everything is just peachy. Palin has faced less controversy and her profile makes it a point to mention ethics complaints. All I am saying is it is not an accurate portrayal of how he appears to the American people. Just something to show that controversy would be accurate, but there is nothing. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Using Hurricane Katrina and George Bush as an comparative example of controversy is not very good. Hurricane Katrina occurred five years ago, and killed a lot of people, and caused millions of dollars worth of damage. Barack Obama winning the Nobel Prize occurred very recently, and certainly hasn't killed anyone. How can you compare them?
- Your examples still do not point to me how the article specifically portrays Obama in a positive light. I have no idea how one can say this article is "peachy". The article only talks about what Obama has or has not done, and what he believes or does not believe in. A person reading this article should have no higher or lower opinion of Obama after finishing it. Nowhere does it say that he was immensely popular etc. In turn:
- Only one article as president of Harvard Law Review - how is this notable at all?
- Nobel Peace Prize - controversy is mentioned, last section of article.
- Controversies - one about Nobel Peace Prize is mentioned, rest are irrelevant to his overall biography and belong to the presidency article.
- Polarising figure - source?
- Excessively liberal voting record - "Excessive" is a POV term. Obama has a strong history though of being considered a liberal; this is mentioned.
- Basically can't prove he is born in US - fringe theory at best.
- Stimulus health bills - Don't judge how history will treat this while it is still happening.
- Public support - Drop in popularity is mentioned.
- Palin has less controversy - Once again, you cannot quantify controversy like this. Palin was a Vice Presidential candidate; Obama is the current President.
- Not "accurate portrayal of how he appears to the American people" - Wikipedia is worldwide, and suggesting that we all put articles from the American perspective can be quite offensive.
- Controversy is not easy to measure, and certainly cannot be assessed "at any time". The reason is that people will generally think and talk about the latest and greatest ones. Therefore, it is difficult - and not a good idea to attempt - to measure the effect of a particular controversy on history just months after it has happened. Just having multiple reputable news outlets reporting on it is nowhere near enough - they release news every day, covering new and old controversies. Just having protests is not enough either - there are protests all the time. One must wait for the weight of history to truly judge whether a controversy really had historical effect. There are controversies every day, but only a few survive in memories and become truly important. WHSL (Talk) 13:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hmmm... as a side note, would you then say you have no problem at all with my other additions, since all of them have proved controversial over the years concerning Obama and are by no means recent? Furthermore, shouldn't Wikipedia report recent events as well as old ones? If there is a recent scandal, I have seen numerous Wikipedia articles mention this, or other controversies relating to a person or business. It would make no sense to do otherwise. Also, is there any Wikipedia policy stating that controversial events must pass a certain time limit before they can be addressed in an article? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Text collapsed for readability, to avoid off-topic conversation dealing with personal attacks and straw men. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 11:11, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
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- So basically, you want to change neutral wording in a WP:BLP into negative wording, because you don't like Barack Obama. I don't know about anyone else, but I vote 'No' on that. I can't see how anyone could read the changes Jzyehoshua wants to make(from his accusations of murdering infants to Obama stealing elections) as anywhere near acceptable. This is a user who has worked for and still supports Alan Keyes. Keyes is a 'Birther' who also has accused Obama and his family of lying about his parentage, claiming Obama's father is some other person than Barack Obama Sr. Obviously there is something wrong with the former Diplomat. In any case, it's impossible to allow this type of POV pushing into a WP:BLP. Why doesn't someone just tell this user that and be done with it? DD2K (talk) 15:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hitler killed millions of people but that doesn't mean Wikipedia should avoid mentioning it because it's negative. Just because an accusation is of an egregious crime does not mean it is untrue or unsourced. And speaking of which, I provided plenty of sources. If you disagree with the sources or statements, then state why and what parts. I am seeing absolutely nothing constructive from you at this point, only criticisms that the charges are too negative. Again, that does not mean they are untrue or unsourced or not being objectively stated.
- You are continuing to use ad hominem tactics, trying to avoid addressing what were very objectively stated additions and very well sourced by attempting to attack my character (as I previously predicted would happen). You are trying to take this onto an irrelevant subject matter about Keyes. The bottom line is that Keyes was Obama's 2004 senate opponent, and the 2004 senate race was a prominent part of Obama's history, so mentioning Keyes and the elements of that race is entirely relevant.
- If you only want to make personal attacks, rather than addressing the subject matter, please find another discussion to participate in. I am a little surprised actually that the Wikipedia community does not prevent these kind of blatant personal attacks when they have nothing to do with constructive criticism. Usually forums at least do a pretty good job of keeping things from getting out of hand.
- As for WP:BLP, you interestingly did not state how you thought I was violating the rules of 'Neutral Point of View', 'Verifiability', and 'No Original Research'. As far as I am concerned, the statements are within the WP:NPOV guidelines which state allowance for POV, just that it must be editorially neutral in tone. In fact, it is a criticism of the Obama article that it does not "clearly describe, represent, and characterize all the disputes within a topic" as the NPOV guidelines say should occur. On the contrary, the article seeks to avoid mentioning any contentious material in the article, which was clearly not the intent of the NPOV guidelines. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
P.S. Nice use of a strawman btw. I did not say anything about changing neutral wording to negative wording. I was talking about negative views, not negative wording. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- DD2K: Why doesn't someone just tell this user that and be done with it? But DD2K, you've just told him that. -- Hoary (talk) 16:25, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I did. My question is, after 30 PAGES and more than 16,000 words, why have Admins constantly kept this obvious POV pushing open? Now there is a comparison to Hitler and accusations that I am using straw men? Me, not him. This whole diatribe is pointless and gives no thought on the many many hours people have worked on this article, or the FAQ. Now the editor not only wants to accuse Obama of murder, but compares the level to that of genocide committed by Adolph Hitler. He doesn't want to improve the article, he wants to destroy it. He can take a simple thing like Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize, and turn that into criticism of Obama. Instead of the praise he received, even by conservatives, on the way he handled the situation(including his speech). Heck, even Pat Buchanan commented that it was ridiculous to blame Obama for the Award. Still, that's a small part of the many, many egregious edits the user wants to make to the article. This is now beyond ridiculous. DD2K (talk) 16:47, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
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One thing that concerns me though is that there seems a lot of confusion by users on this topic about what the WP:NPOV rules actually say. Here is a reposting of them:
"Neutral point of view
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. It requires that all majority- and significant-minority views be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material. Therefore, material should not be removed solely on the grounds that it is "POV", although it may be shortened or moved if it gives undue weight to a minor point of view, as explained below.
The neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject, nor does it endorse or oppose specific viewpoints. It is not a lack of viewpoint, but is rather a specific, editorially neutral, point of view. An article should clearly describe, represent, and characterize all the disputes within a topic, but should not endorse any particular point of view. It should explain who believes what, and why, and which points of view are most common. It may contain critical evaluations of particular viewpoints based on reliable sources, but even text explaining sourced criticisms of a particular view must avoid taking sides.
Bias
Neutrality requires views to be represented without bias. All editors and all sources have biases (in other words, all editors and all sources have a point of view)—what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. Unbiased writing is the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence. Editorial bias toward one particular point of view should be removed or repaired."
As stated there, it is expected that editors will have points of view. Everybody does. It just requires that the subject matter be written from a neutral standpoint and avoid taking sides. It is not avoiding contentious material, but rather presenting all views so long as they can be sourced and stated neutrally, with this stating then done in proportion to the relevance. Furthermore, it is perfectly alright to provide 'critical evaluations' if based on reliable sources, so long as it's done simply stating the views, rather than providing opinions. For this reason when writing my proposed edits I sought to avoid using adjectives and merely to use a matter of fact tone of voice, merely stating the facts rather than trying to provide opinions or even to frame it in any way. Furthermore, I sought to provide them as concisely and minimally as possible, using as few words as possible, and to not make them more prevalent than necessary, since this is after all an Obama page, not an Obama criticisms page. Therefore, it's meant simply to provide relevant information, not go into depth about the criticism (which I was confused about before since pages did allow controversies sections in the past). At any rate, I'm adjusting to the style requirements and agree with them from what I can see. If anyone has any more to add about how I should approach this let me know. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
As for the WP:BLP rules someone earlier brought up, one of the sections states:
"Well-known public figures
In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article—even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out."
This is pretty specific. It is not a matter of whether it is negative. It is not a matter of whether there is a POV attached to the person writing it (though they must write neutrally). If the incident is 'notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article-even if it's negative' - those are Wikipedia's exact words on the subject.
At the top of the page, in the meantime, it states, "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."
Therefore, this is not a question of whether my material is negative (though it must be presented with facts only, not opinions, unless stating opinions of a major source from a publication), but of whether the sources are there to back it up. Are my sources used above reliable enough and thorough enough to completely back up everything I said? Was what they were backing up notable and relevant?
These are the questions I was expecting to end up confronting primarily when I made this section. All this talk about whether or not my POV is negative and what I want to include is negative has absolutely no bearing according to Wikipedia rules. All that matters is that it be notable, well-sourced, neutrally stated, and relevant in regards to its position on the page. And when it comes to that, I am more than happy to discuss with anybody whether my proposed edits measure up, and if not, what can be done so that Wikipedia rules are met.
--Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:34, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- If we covered everything, we'd have a very long article. We need to cover the most important things here, and neutrally, so we don't have time for Republican party-line smears such as the infanticide smear, or even the Nobel Peace Prize "controversy". Funnily enough, Bill O'Reilly put it best regarding the prize: whether it's deserved or not, it's a good thing, so people shouldn't complain about it. Sceptre (talk) 18:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, infanticide is not a Republican smear. The ones pushing it originally were the pro-life crowd, like Alan Keyes, Jill Stanek, and the National Right to Life Committee. I am a pro-life Democrat myself who votes 3rd party in all presidential elections. And Keyes is now part of the Constitution Party. It took the GOP a long time to finally pick up on the infanticide stuff (McCain didn't try mentioning it until the election's last few weeks) and only after people like me sent them numerous complaints telling them to knock off the dumb smears that are easily debunked and stick to factually-based criticisms like Obama's history on late-term abortion. It was not the GOP pushing it. It was a matter of us pro-life people harassing the GOP about using sourced and valid criticisms like it instead of their cherry-picking smear campaigns about ridiculous stuff or stuff difficult to prove. My main reason for wanting the Nobel Peace Prize controversy comment included is that it's disingenuous at best to put in an introduction section merely that someone won an award when over half the world not only doesn't understand why you won it, but actively thinks you shouldn't have won it.
- Look, why is the Nobel Peace Prize even being mentioned in the introduction? Because it is viewed as an 'accomplishment'. But when there are major news organizations criticizing it, world leaders ridiculing the process, and even his closest supporters are hard-pressed to explain any reason he could have won it - then maybe that should be mentioned, so it doesn't unfairly portray as an accomplishment something that is very controversial, without at least mentioning the controversy. Would you support a proposed edit even of "Obama is the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize laureate[4] (an award accompanied by controversy).[5]" with the link simply going to the bottom section of the page detailing the controversy? For using 5 words simply to avoid framing as an accomplishment something very controversial, I don't understand how anyone could objectively disagree with this. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict - this addresses Jzyehoshua) Those are all good points, and I'll try to address them in a few hours when I have a chance. The answers to why certain things do belong in the main Obama article, don't belong, or are the subject of reasonable editor discretion, are all in the policy / guideline sections you cite, but you have to be careful interpreting them. The main issue, in short, comes down to whether a particular item is adequately sourced and is faithful to those sources (whether it is a fact to state, an opinion to report, or a disputed claim of fact) noteworthy, pertinent / relevant, and, having passed that filter, where to put it. Deciding which article(s), if any, should mention a given thing is a matter of assessing how notable, relevant, and weighty (a cluster of related ways of saying the same thing that I prefer to call "noteworthy", meaning worth noting) it is with respect to the particular article in question. For example, the fact that quiche consumption dropped for many years in America after publication of the book, Real Men Don't Eat Quiche, if properly sourced, probably belongs in the article about that book. It may or may not belong in the article on quiche, depending on whether it is a truly noteworthy event in the history of that food. That can be approached a number of ways. Do many of the sources on quiche mention it? Did it have a major impact? Does it help the reader gain a better comprehensive knowledge of the subject? Is it an established fact or speculation? I don't think assessing whether that represents a pro- or anti-quiche bias is terribly helpful here. The goal is not for the article as a whole to be properly balanced with both positive and negative facts about quiche. It's to promote an understanding of the subject, ideally free of biases on either side, not balanced biasses. And at the extreme, the fact doesn't belong in the main article about cheese, or publishing, or men, eating, or reality. Sceptre has a point, there is only so much information that can go in one article, which is why we have 200+ and counting articles that are about Obama (see the template). This one, of course, is the most read by an order of magnitude so the key facts go here. Anyway, like I said I'll try to give it a more full answer in a while. Thanks for being patient. Cheers. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. That is why I did not try to put any mention of those negative elements about Obama in the introduction. However, I do think them relevant to the sections they are suggested in. The 2004 senate campaign was the big step up for Barack Obama, and a few sentences mentioning the general election and topics in it hardly seems out of line. I think as it is, the general election is far too little mentioned in the current section (probably giving undue weight to other factors), which focuses more on the primary, endorsements, entering the election, and his keynote address. Let me put it in perspective here:
- -There are 11 sentences and 286 words in the section.
- -The first 2 sentences of 76 words discuss Obama's choosing to enter the race.
- -The 3rd sentence of 33 words discusses endorsements of Obama in the primary.
- -The 4th sentence of 31 words discusses how Obama won the primary in a landslide.
- -The 5th sentence of 26 words discusses Obama's new label as a 'rising star' because of his primary win.
- -The 6th sentence of 19 words discusses Obama's keynote address at the DNC.
- -The 7th sentence of 33 words discusses how many viewers saw it and how the address elevated his status in the Democrat party.
- -The 8th sentence of 19 words discusses how Obama's opponent for the general election withdrew from the race.
- -The 9th and 10th sentences of 28 words discuss how Alan Keyes accepted the Republican nomination and established residency in the state.
- -The 11th sentence of 26 words discusses Obama's win and how wide a margin it was won by.
- Now, you realize that in a section supposedly about the 2004 U.S. Senate Campaign, not 1 of the 11 sentences or even 1 of the 286 words used here ACTUALLY MENTIONS THE CAMPAIGN FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION BETWEEN KEYES AND OBAMA. NOT ONE WORD ABOUT HOW THE CAMPAIGN TRANSPIRED, KEY COMPONENTS OF THE CAMPAIGN, WHAT WENT ON BETWEEN BOTH SIDES, WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CAMPAIGN WERE - A.B.S.O.L.U.T.E.L.Y. N.O.T.H.I.N.G..
- This is why I am surprised that there is so much opposition to actually discussing major parts of the general election campaign. As it is, there is zero mention of it in a section where this should be front and center, you would think. Instead, undue weight is given to discussing everything that sounds good about Obama. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Text collapsed for readability, to avoid off-topic conversation dealing with personal attacks and straw men. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 11:11, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
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- (Response to Jzyehoshua's second post in this edit and his four proposed changes in particular.) Quite. Which does explain the Hitler article, then, doesn't it? Which is the point. An article does not use the Neutral Point of View guidelines as a framework to balance and neutralize our tone to make everybody come out about equal to Hitler in their bios. Farrah Fawcett-Hitler. Thomas Alva Hitler. President Barack Hitler. Regardless what the desperate and vile tactics of someone's partisan opposition or the post-ironic, beyond hyperbolic news coverage ravenousness for same, we do not represent opposing views neutrally if it is clear those views are fringe views with little or no basis in the truth. There are holocaust deniers, but while they are mentioned, they are not given equal time or equal weight because a neutral or objective view sees them for the self-interested obfuscators they are. The point of an encyclopedia is not simply to cover the news, to give equal time to both views for every process on a day-to-day news cycle manner. There are people who have alleged that Barack Obama wants to kill your grandmother with death panels. Protesters ranting about that have drawn a great deal of media coverage, carrying signs that equate Obama with Hitler. But these claims are absurd and disputed by the facts. And so we don't mention in this bio that Barack Obama wants to kill your grandmother with death panels, nor do we mention that a loud fringe gets coverage for stridently and slanderously persisting that he does. Article coverage of negativity doesn't mean simply that anybody can make up something negative about a notable person, get a lot of coverage, and into the notable person's encyclopedic biography for history it goes. There are some negative things that people say about others that are, in the final analysis, not about the others, they're about the people saying them in the first place. These issues you raise happen to be among them. Hugo Chavez et al bitching that Obama doesn't deserve the Nobel Prize isn't remotely as notable as the Nobel Committee thinking he does. That is what the Nobel Prize is, after all, is the collective decision of the Nobel Committee.
- The vast majority of people are going to have a problem with the song that's #1 on the charts at any given time, but the fact that Punk rockers don't like power ballads and Hip Hop fans don't like grunge music and classic rock aficionados don't like teen pop isn't relevant to the article about the song that hits #1. Those irreconcilable differences between groups may bear mentioning in some article somewhere, but every pop song article doesn't need a section noting that Kanye West doesn't like it, it's only when Kanye West gets up and makes a big ass of himself interrupting the broadcast at the moment some chick is getting an award that his feelings become notable to mention, and then it's still about him making an ass of himself, not fundamentally about his difference of opinion, which again is presumed. If Hugo Chavez or Sean Hannity or whomever traveled to Oslo and pulled a Kanye West on Obama, that would still be more about them and about the event than it would be about Obama's biography, considering the level of notability and the degree of things that deserve coverage for their direct connection to Obama, his actions and his experiences. If Chavez' comments resulted in the Nobel committee reversing their decision and instead calling for Obama to be brought up on charges in the Hague, that would be an exceptional thing, affect Obama, and would be relevant to his biography and mitigate the mention of his win.
- The fact that at this point in time you're a fan of Alan Keyes is probably why you can't see that he doesn't deserve any more elaboration in this article than he already has. This article hits the broad points and only rolls up its sleeves and explains when it has to to strike the proper perspective about the situation. What the media "did to" Keyes or what Keyes' campaign tactics were is simply not relevant to what probably amounts to a three-page biography of Barack Obama. There is an article specifically about that election, and if it isn't already there, it may warrant a sentence or two from weight and relevancy standpoints there. Your own posts state that Keyes knew he couldn't win the election against Obama and took the job to run against him only for the opportunity to smear him with overstated partisan smears from day one, which if you thought about it for a few more minutes should itself explain to you why it's not this biography's responsibility to salvage Keyes' electoral viability. Allowing Obama to run unopposed and smearing him from the sidelines would have damaged the foundation of Obama's then-future prospects more than the cynical way they went with Keyes, is my opinion, but my opinion doesn't belong in these articles either.
- Similarly, if there is some filing date legality that prevented other candidates from successfully waging their campaigns at that time, even if it was Obama's lawyers who pointed that out, it has nothing to do with this biography. Your characterization that Obama won the election through the use of lawyers, and not through the sexual peccadilloes of his opponents or the bilious distaste from their negative campaigns—much less Obama's own positive life story and adept campaigning, which doesn't get situational coverage either if you'd take a second look at the bio (no "again in 200X it was his exceptional this and his sterling that that saw him through with flying colors, winning him the XXXX")—should be obvious in its overstated POV even to you.
- I will say this, and not for some misplaced sense that I've got to throw you a bone. If the racial profiling legislation was a collaboration with someone(s) else—and I've got to admit that your avalanche methodology has prevented me from the will or time to actually read that long and conversationally written link—that is the sort of thing that we could note within the sentence already there (not by adding an additional sentence), something like:
- "He sponsored and led unanimous, bipartisan passage of legislation drafted by Senator Rickey Hendon[Ref linking Hendon directly to the actual bill, as opposed to Op-Ed piece likening the two] to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and legislation making Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations.[44][49]"
- If Emil Jones was an influential mentor of Obama's and that is supported by notable refs (perhaps mentioned by Obama in one of his books? I've not yet read them), that, too, could be noted somewhere in passing. The truth is that all successful people owe great parts of their formative leaps and bounds to various people in their family, in their community, in their profession, etc., and/or have managers and agents and bosses, yet those things are generally only stated in a bio as brief as this one if and in those instances where this influence made a profound impact and was a ubiquitous presence. Credit where credit is due, but again to start going down the road of noting everyone connected with every event is not the purpose of a three-page-ish biography.
- I would like to associate myself with Wikidemon's comments about quiche. (Things you can't believe you're typing.)
- Finally, somewhere in here you lament that nobody in the Wikipedia community has done anything about attacks on you, apparently ignoring the fact that two editors including myself have entirely removed comments that were deemed unacceptable and interacted with the editor in question, and another one or two here have alternately tried closing the discussion and called for greater discretion here. I have formally weighed in against three of your four suggestions and suggested an alternative to your fourth if the refs and facts so warrant. In the future I recommend taking things one or two at a time and focusing on sources that would be referenced in the article, because quite honestly this is a heck of a lot of reading and writing for anybody to do in their spare time and the goalposts keep moving. Most people could not be faulted for seeing things like World Net Daily and "Hitler", sum you up with them, and make for the door, if not your door.
Abrazame (talk) 19:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- You are dishonestly trying to portray me as equating the infanticide issue with Hitler. I am getting tired of all the fallacies and misquoting of my words, which exactly repeated were, "Hitler killed millions of people but that doesn't mean Wikipedia should avoid mentioning it because it's negative. Just because an accusation is of an egregious crime does not mean it is untrue or unsourced." The point was not comparing Obama and Hitler, or infanticide and Hitler's actions, but making a point about why Wikipedia should not avoid mentioning negative aspects of a notable person's biography. These mudslinging tactics are particularly detestable for a moderator.
- As I stated above, the actual general election and circumstances thereof were not mentioned at all in the 2004 U.S. Senate Campaign section in any of the 11 sentences or 286 words used. This to me particularly seems an example of undue weight and extreme bias. You keep using terms like 'smear' in regards to Keyes about the infanticide charges, but I notice you have not tried to contest any of the original links stating specific evidence involved, such as the article by FactCheck, or the actual statements made by Obama on the senate floor which I quoted verbatim. It is you who are running a smear campaign, because rather than addressing the actual claims and related evidence, you simply resort to name-calling and spurious attacks.
- This comment was particularly dishonest: "Your characterization that Obama won the election through the use of lawyers, and not through the sexual peccadilloes of his opponents or the bilious distaste from their negative campaigns". You mixed the 2 elections. His original entry into politics came by knocking off all opponents through extended challenges of their petition signatures after the filing deadline. The Jack Ryan and Keyes stuff was in the 2004 election. You are taking taking elections almost 10 years apart, and then trying to criticize me for mentioning the first because I didn't instead credit the events that would happen almost 10 years later instead! You just said, in effect, "You are mischaracterizing by saying Obama won the 1996 election through use of lawyers [which he did] instead of mentioning the sexual scandals of Jack Ryan and negative campaigning of Alan Keyes that occurred in the 2004 election." Either you are being very, very dishonest or I should give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't even know these were 2 separate elections.
- --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
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(unindent) Let's stick to the edits to keep things moving...
My take on the content proposals:
- 1. Mention controversy surrounding Nobel prize in lede. Although this is an arguable point and within the reasonable bounds of editor discretion, I don't support this, for several reasons:
- (a) It doesn't belong in the lede - the lede hits all the major points but doesn't try to add context like opinions or controversies. It's already long enough.
- (b) Criticism is not a salient point about Nobel Peace Prizes. Most or all are controversial, and they are nearly always awarded for political reasons rather than based on merit. As a general point about the prize, that is worth covering in articles about the prize and about this one in particular, but if we are to say things about Obama's winning the prize this is pretty far down the list. The Nobel Committee is an independent body that is not directly affected by public approval - it is not like a politician who needs to be elected, or a film that needs to convince people to watch it. It's kind of like saying that a sports official's ruling is criticized, the design of an airplane, or the name of a private boat. It's not completely unremarkable, just not the most important thing about it.
- (c) It seems that nearly everyone agrees that Obama has not achieved or acted (yet?) in a way that would deserve the prize, including Obama himself. He, his supporters and detractors, the press, and probably the committee itself, all acknowledge that the prize was given in response to his promises to change American policy in a way welcomed by much of the international community, partly as a way of encouraging him to follow through on it. Perhaps that's not precisely it, but I don't think there's a whole lot of disagreement on the particular politics the Committee was playing, so calling it criticism is unduly opinionated. The only major differences of opinion are whether this is truly a huge honor for Obama under the circumstances, and whether the committee is going too far out on a limb (but see above, opinions of others don't directly affect the committee or the prize recipient).
- (d) Bias. To mention only that some criticize the award, without mentioning that a large number also praise the award, each sometimes from unexpected sources, is to present only one side of the story. As discussed elsewhere, for encyclopedic reasons criticism and praise are best used judiciously rather than filtering all events in politics through the lens of how much positive and negative political gaming goes on surrounding them.
- (e) Should be, and is, covered elsewhere. The criticism, support, general consensus, and opinions of Obama and the committee are all covered by at least four consecutive sentences in the body of the article, in the section on the prize. We're not ignoring the issue, but I don't think every four-sentence section justifies a phrase in the lede.
- 2. Mention lawsuit that disqualified opponents in Illinois senate. This is a toss-up for me. I see nothing wrong with mentioning this if we do it in a neutral way. "Through the use of lawyers" is a loaded, derogatory slant on something that is not negative at all, and mentioning that it was after the filing deadline is pure insinuation. Obama sued, and won, which means his position was legally correct. Of course he sued after the filing deadline - that's when challenges to petitions are heard, after the petitions are turned in. What he sued about were fraudulent nominating petitions, which had become the norm in the corrupt, insular world of Chicago politics - he was the only candidate that was legitimately nominate. These days nearly all close elections are litigated. If that fact bothers some people and draws some grandstanding by opponents, America is always free to change its political process. I'm not sure people would like the results, but that's a fact about elections, not about each politician who undertakes a campaign. Would we say that Al Franken won "through the use of lawyers", or George W. Bush? Well, yes, perhaps, but we would not put it that way. Achieving an outcome through litigation was the defining moment in each of these elections. I think a more neutral way to say it would be that Obama won the election after successfully challenging the legitimacy of each of his opponents' nominations in court. That's the facts. Saying it without commentary or innuendo lets the reader decide what to make of them.
- 3. Mention that legislation described, and others, were given to Obama by his mentor Emil Jones. Too much relatively minor detail without presenting a complete picture, in my opinion. If we're going to get into the sausage factory of how different pieces of legislation came about we would have to be more comprehensive. It's also a bit of a random mash-up. There are two issues here, Obama's legislative record and his mentorship by Emil Jones. The latter issue deserves its own mention, probably a sorely lacking paragraph about Obama's rise to power and boost from (and ultimately, rising past) the old power structure in Chicago. It's abundantly clear that Jones was a mentor to Obama, and was often described in those terms - do a google search for something like "Emil Jones" / "Barack Obama" / mentor. A couple good sources here:
- The latter source, a booklet-length narrative in the New Yorker on Obama's early political career, is a great yardstick to hold up to our article in terms of the weight of coverage of various items from Obama's early career. It's twice as long as this article and covers about 1/4 of the biographical territory of Obama's pre-election life, so we could say it's scale is at least eight times bigger than this one. I did an exhaustive analysis of the people and subjects that got covered, at Talk:Barack Obama/weight - the article devotes 27.5 sentences to Jones, describing the relationship in considerable detail, including the "alliance" with Obama by which Jones "shepherded" through Obama's legislation. The article also mentions a cadre of other, often feuding, politicians who sponsored and groomed the young Obama: Toni Preckwinkle (a big omission in the article), Alice Palmer (politician) (ditto), Bobby Rush (an opponent and then reluctant supporter), David Axelrod (we already mention him), and Abner J. Mikva. I think we could build a paragraph or two about all this, and it is very important as a biographical item. Some of these other articles adequately mention the relationship with Obama; others (such as the Emil Jones article, could be filled out in this regard. The New Yorker article also extensively mentions a protege, Will Burns, but mostly as a source rather than the relationship.
- 4. Expanded discussion of Keyes. Also within reasonable bounds of editor discretion, but I don't think this much detail is warranted. It distracts from the focus on Obama himself, and that's the subject of this article. Keyes fell completely flat in the election, and is today a very fringe-y figure, so that is all a ditraction. Plus, the mechanics of the various election victories is better detailed in the sub-articles about each election in my opinion.
Hope that helps. As an editorial aside here, can we all please get past any negative comments about each other, and find some other forum if there is any serious concern? There's some good stuff in these proposals, even if you disagree with 90% or even 100% of it. And it's offered seriously and in good faith, even if the editor proposing it is (or is not) opinionated on the subject. Having an opinion is not a crime and it should not hurt our chances of working together, as long as the content itself that results is neutral. That's how it always is in every mature article, even the completely uncontroversial ones... 90% of the content proposals are ultimately rejected and the article gets improved a bit at a time. If we take the best 10% here, or more or less, there are some things to improve the article. - Wikidemon (talk) 13:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
- Alright, I appreciate the time you took to respond. I made sure to thoroughly think through all my replies:
- 1.
- (a) It is noticeable that the only 2 sentences in the entire Barack Obama article which could even be considered critical of him are the final 2 on the page, which mention the controversy and criticism surrounding the award. Indeed, the entire Barack Obama page is only positive in tone. It goes out of the way, for example, to mention events that increased his approval, but not ones that decreased it. It also states when he had favorable approval ratings, but not when unfavorable. Therefore, this makes it particularly noteworthy that when the award is mentioned, it mentions only the positive, and not the widespread criticism, which is relegated to the very end of the page.
- (b) I can see what you are saying. However, when controversy is as prominent as that surrounding the award, I would think mention of the award in the introduction section should at least mention this controversy, if only as a by-the-by. After all, one of the elements in determining placement of material is prominence, and if the award was prominent, it should be noted that equally so was the criticism and controversy.
- (c) I was reacting not so much to the lack of mention that Obama did not yet merit the award, but the active criticism of it. For example, Obama when accepting the award acknowledged "the considerable controversy" surrounding the award, while the Nobel Prize Committee chairman, Thorbjorn Jagland, felt the criticism deeply enough to provide a lengthy live interview defending the decision.[[20]] Some of his critics included:
- -Polish President, Les Walesa, who won the award in 1983 and said, "So soon? Too early. He has no contribution so far... he is still at an early stage."[[21]]
- -Norwegian Progress Party leader Siv Jensen, of the main opposition party in the country the Nobel was given in, said, "It is just too soon... It is wrong to give him the peace prize for his ambition. You should receive it for results."[[22]]
- (d) I would have no problem with a comment about any prominent or noteworthy praise for the award. However, what praise there was seemed very limited at the time in comparison the criticism. Even those that did praise it had little they could say but suggesting it was because he created a 'climate' globally (Jagland's term) or else was simply being credited for having made speeches and talks that were inspiring. Again, if you can find praise of equal prominence and relevance I would expect it to be included as well, but honestly expect that you will have a very tough time finding it.
- (e) That was my point about the award itself. Does it justify mention in the introduction? If so, why? If because of prominence, how does the controversy surrounding the award compare in terms of prominence to the award itself? Since one of the WP rules involves prominence and noteworthiness, I think it noteworthy that the controversy outweighed the award itself.
- 2. Hmm... multiple articles cited mentioned that this was a case of him hiring a troop of lawyers, including at least one who was a fellow classmate from law school, when challenging the signatures. Is there an alternative way you think this could be mentioned? The lawyers were the method for the challenging, and given the number hired, which sounds as though it must have been at least 4, it seems noteworthy enough to merit mention. My question is, if the fact is noteworthy the lawyers were a key part of it, do you have an alternate suggestion for how I should word that? As for it being after the filing deadline, we are told that in one of the articles. It seems his most prominent opponent may have had a delay, and also requested Obama drop out, as she'd formerly given him a nod of approval, stating he would made an adequate successor. She was surprised when he not only continued running against her, but ended up suing to knock off her for whatever reason "hastily gathered signatures" as I believe one article put it. As for the lawsuit, it is an unusual aspect that is noteworthy and relevant to that part of Obama's history, and therefore merits mention. Whether it was right or not is questionable. Earmarks are legal too, and many have been falsely convicted by our justice system, so the legality of it and the decision by the courts does not negate the potential controversy. I know I use extreme examples to prove my points, but as an example seeking to portray the view of this from the other side, but Palin won out in her ethics controversies, as did John McCain (Keating Five I believe it was called), yet this does not mean their events don't get mentioned on their profiles (which they do). For these reasons, denying the mention of this history would be disparate treatment compared to conservative politicians. At any rate, I'd be interested in hearing your recommended edits in comparison to mine so that they can be contrasted and if I am leaving anything out or wording anything improperly it will show up. A side by side comparison would allow strong points from both sides to be combined.
- 3. Yes, actually I ended up mentioning a Google search of Jones Obama mentor earlier, believe it or not. You're right, there is a lot of evidence supporting that fact. I only provided my sources after the fact, since someone questioned it. (Discussion should be on this page somewhere.) I think you have a good idea though, mentioning more about his other mentors and political associations would be a good addition to the article. With Jones, I think it just particularly noteworthy and controversial though since Jones was responsible for much of the legislation he now points too as evidence of his legislative capability.
- 4. As I stated before, Keyes was entering an election with less than 3 months left. He did not even have much knowledge of the state, or little time to do much of anything. Indeed, his bombastic rhetoric may be viewed as a desperate attempt to stop a politician he strongly despised by grabbing headlines and controversy as quickly as possible. With so little time and so little campaign structure (he relied heavily on grassroots organizing and a largely unregulated free speech forum called 'RenewAmerica' which still exists today) he could not afford a slower pace. Yes, he lost by an unprecedented margin, but I am not sure any major party candidate has ever attempted a run after entering a race so late, particularly in a foreign state. As composing the key part of the general election, and in a section about said election, it seems odd that he is mentioned in only 2 of the 11 sentences. My edits would add 1 more sentence and 55 more words, but I don't think this is overdoing it, considering they'd provide the only current insight into the general election, the key part of the election, in the section which is supposed to be about that election.
- Also, good job on the Obama/weight page. I was impressed.
- Also, my apologies for the late reply. You gave the most serious feedback about the edits, and I wanted to make sure I didn't just make a hasty reply.
- --Jzyehoshua (talk) 19:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I wish there were some way to automate that kind of weight analysis, say by taking the 10-20 most prominent sources on a subject and seeing how they treat different issues...
- Regarding 1(a), last time I checked there were 6 or 8 items on the page that could be considered negative, but counting pros and cons is not very fruitful. There's no optimum balance, no standard way to count, and the act of inserting things just to add more negativity is antithetical to a lot of content policies. Saying that a person won an award, or a job title, or an election, would be balanced by... what? Mentioning an award they didn't win? Certainly not an act of criticism over the award, that would balance a statement that they were praised over the award. If you look at most articles (e.g. brussels sprouts, or more pertinent, well written biographies of successful people) it's certainly not 50/50. They lay out the objective facts of the career, most of which (for most people) are accomplishments, meaning they are positive if you want to look at it that way. You have to take things one at a time. On 1(b) I would say that criticism of the award, and of Obama's for winning it, is no more great than praise of the award, and Obama for winning it. Here we get into the same issue of deciding what is postivie versis negative. The praise, as I see it, does not counter the facts of criticism, that Obama had no achievements to merit the award and that America is even under Obama not the most peaceful country on earth, it just says that the Nobel Committee was intentionally rewarding and encouraging his statements of aspiration. If you went down the path of measuring public reception you would have to mention both, and as I said that is not the most pertinent thing about Nobel Peace Prizes. I do think that after the coverage reaches a certain threshold that is one of the things to mention, but I'm not sure that our 3-4 sentences hits that point. If other editors thought so I wouldn't oppose it. The article about the award should and presumably does address this more fully.
- Regarding #2, Obama's opponents all failed to gather the necessary legitimate signatures, and got certified anyway. Obama mounted a successful challenge. The neutral way to say it (subject to some wording improvement) is that Obama wone the election by default after a successful legal challenge to the adequacy of each of his opponents' nomination etitions, none of which were found to have enough legitimate signatures. One of those opponents was a political patron, who had asked Obama to wait until the next election, when she would suport him. Is that state election tactic important enough to Obama's life story to mention here? I think yes because it's a significant life event.
- We agree on #3... although I'll bet Jones is not the only person in Chicago's political machine who would be controversial.
- I guess #4 is a judgment call, but the more neutral way to put it is to summarize more objectively that Jones had made Obama's positions on abortion his major campaign issue. When politicans square off on the subject of abortion they often go for emotionally-charged symbols (live-born fetuses, welfare mothers, victims of rape and incest, etc.) to attack each other, when those aren't the real issue. It gets to that in-world thing I mention, in case anyone read my Bunnytown digression.
- Not sure where to go from here. I think everyone is busy talking on their own separate part of this page, with reactions ranging from agreement to alarm. Maybe let things simmer down a bit, then start (yet) another section with a more focused proposal, perhaps one at a time. I'd be willing to offer a first proposal on one of these, if you think that might help get it be better received. I think the coming of age in Chicago politics is the most pressing omission, but that one would also take the longest time to research, write, and smooth out. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
- 1. Well, with the award, I think it is not merely that it was prominent in relation to the award, but as a controversy during Obama's career (though arguably even more prominent were the 'infanticide' charge which was probably the primary controversy surrounding him, and haunted him much of his career).
- I found this in the Wikipedia rules for the Wikipedia:Lead section guidelines:
- "The lead section, lead (sometimes lede), or introduction of a Wikipedia article is the section before the table of contents and first heading. The lead serves both as an introduction to the article and as a summary of the important aspects of the subject of the article.
- The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should usually be established in the first sentence.
- While consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article, the lead nonetheless should not "tease" the reader by hinting at—but not explaining—important facts that will appear later in the article. The lead should contain no more than four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style to invite a reading of the full article."
- This is what I am concerned the Obama article does not do. The introduction according to WP guidelines should be summarizing all 'notable controversies' and not neglecting important facts that will appear later in the article (in the case of the Nobel Prize controversy, the page's last 2 sentences). Indeed, I think it notable that all of this argumentation has to be done to get even the most major of controversies onto the page, when according to WP guidelines, they should be in the introduction section.
- On the other hand, if you disagree the Nobel prize was one of Obama's great controversies, then there is another issue - because then we must identify what were the greatest controversies, and ensure they are mentioned in the introduction.
- 2. Also, I have no problem whatsoever with your proposed alternative for #2, "Obama won the election by default after a successful legal challenge to the adequacy of each of his opponents' nomination petitions, none of which were found to have enough legitimate signatures. One of those opponents was a political patron, who had asked Obama to wait until the next election, when she would suport him." The only thing I would add is that in the sentence it should also be noted Palmer was the patron, but otherwise I think it a well-written alternative that summarizes the subject. It may also be necessary according to the aforementioned guidelines to mention the controversy element of this as well if it is determined this was a 'notable controversy' for Obama, but either way, I am fine with the alternative you proposed, and think it would work very well.
- 4. And finally, I agree with your statement that the more neutral way to put it is to summarize more objectively that Keyes had made Obama's positions on abortion his major campaign issue. This is what I was going for, and thought I had achieved. It was why I stated it only as "and with Keyes running a negative campaign criticizing Obama on the issue of late-term abortions70". I even tried to avoid framing it by using the words 'negative campaign' to avoid positive bias of Keyes, and so those looking into the subject would not be swayed by that sentence. Indeed, given its prominent status as the key controversy surrounding Obama, perhaps it should have more mention in the page according to the WP guidelines. At any rate though, I was simply trying to mention Keyes had made it his key campaign issue, and if that could be reworded as such would have no issue with it.
- Finally, thanks for the offer to reword some of these statements. Much of what I am hearing I agree with, and was even trying to achieve the effect (and thought I had) when writing the edits. I see no noticeable difference between the versions and would welcome the alternative versions you suggested. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 13:31, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Alright, I just made the proposed edit #2, (I will avoid edit #1 for now, and possibly altogether, due to controversy) but as you will see tried to use the alternative version you recommended. The second sentence was changed a bit though to mention the opponent was Alice Palmer, and to mention some of the details mentioned on the Alice Palmer page about the event which would otherwise seem unclear.
"Obama won the election by default after a successful legal challenge to the adequacy of each of his four opponents' nomination petitions, none of which were found to have enough legitimate signatures.[43][42] One of those opponents, incumbent Alice Palmer, had earlier named Obama her successor,[44] but following a failed Congressional bid, her campaign asked Obama to step down, and when he refused, had to gather signatures with two days left before the filing deadline.[45]"
Also, I incorporated some of the sourcing from the Alice Palmer page which already mentioned these events, and had some very good sourcing. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
I just made the proposed edit #3.
"This legislation was originally worked on by Senator Rickey Hendon[54][44], and was among numerous pieces of legislation given to Obama as part of a requested deal with his political mentor[55][56], Senator Emil Jones, to make him a U.S. Senator.[57][48]"
As you can see, it is the same as that proposed, except I added the last part about "to make him a U.S. Senator" since it's such a well-established quote. One of the articles already referenced in that section even mentioned it (In Illinois, Obama Proved Pragmatic and Shrewd) so I made it a ref name tag and re-cited it. I also mentioned in the edit summary that this information has already been mentioned and referenced on the Emil Jones page. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 08:22, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
And now the 4th edit has been made. Edit is as follows:
"Obama's expected opponent in the general election, Republican primary winner Jack Ryan, withdrew from the race in June 2004[6] following a widely-reported sex scandal.[7] Two months later, and with less than three months remaining in the election,[8] Alan Keyes accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan.[9]
Following a race in which Alan Keyes was heavily criticized by the press both for being a 'carpetbagger'[10] and for evicting his daughter Maya Keyes for her homosexuality,[11] and with Alan Keyes running a negative campaign criticizing Obama primarily on the issue of Obama's voting record on live birth abortion[12], Obama in the November 2004 general election received 70% of the vote to Keyes' 27%,[13] the largest victory margin for a statewide race in Illinois history.[14]"
As before, I made tweaks simply by looking and re-evaluating, but there should be little surprises here aside from the mention of Maya Keyes. I was always skeptical of the accusations during the race of Keyes evicting Maya, but upon following up I found evidence that she does currently still state it happened. For the record, I agree with her that her father is an honest man who did it likely out of a sense of duty and concern he was supporting a sinful lifestyle - but still think he should apologize for it and publicly come clean.
Anyway, that's all irrelevant. Bottom line is, these were the three major issues during the campaign and now being covered objectively on Wikipedia, the article is one step closer to truly being comprehensive concerning a figure that is too often poorly understood and reported on. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 19:33, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Huge long wall of text
humorous but rambling Bunnytown text collapsed by editor who added it
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
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- Well, sometimes the community needs to be kicked in the shins... to be fair, we have had a lot of trouble on this page so people are a bit jumpy. Please accept my apologies if you were treated with disrespect. I'm still not ready to type out my long version but I think Abrazame and I are on the same page, except perhaps we could replace the Hitler example with smurfs or something else a little less nasty. You know, Godwin's Law... Anyhow, the question of how encyclopedic it is to report that other people hold negative opinions on something, oppose it, or detract from it, is an interesting one. In general that stuff doesn't go in the encyclopedia and nobody wants to put it in. We don't report that there are more people who have sworn off tequilla than any other hard liquor... or that black licorice tastes nasty. Every once in a while a negative / detracting thing is either so widespread, or affects a thing so much ... or support for it ... crosses a threshold where it's worth reporting. We could say that mexican cuisine (or maybe Chinese, or Pizza, or something) is the most popular fast food in America. Or that there is an organized movement against high fructose corn syrup. We could probably say that George Herbert Walker Bush hates broccoli (true fact) but I'm not sure where that goes. I regularly patrol the brussels sprouts article and I can't tell you how much vandalism and unsourced personal opinion I have to remove. There was a poll in the UK, and apparently brussels sprouts is the most hated food among school children, I think I let that one slide. Okay, I'm rambling. There are a few fields where negative and positive information, opinions, polls, criticism, are relevant because that is how that particular field works. In music, art, film, literature, popular culture, scientific theories, philosophies, and cultural movements, for example, the success and influence of a work is judged by critical reception and popularity. So most of our film articles have a "critical reception" section. Most articles about restaurants do not, interestingly, but we do list awards and star ratings if they are extraordinary. Politics is a funny area here, because the game of getting people funded and elected, and getting their legislation passed, is a constant grappling match between opponents, fueled by donors, paid pundits, partisan and mainstream press, special-interest organizations, industry pressure, lobbyists, grassroots movements, etc. So we have press releases, speaches, news stories, advocacy journalism, and all kinds of sources that are themselves part of the game of politics. The thing is, not a day goes by without some criticism of Obama (and of almost every other politician, and bill), and defensive support, and criticism of the critics. Politics is a giant perpetual scrimmage. As an encyclopedia we need to cover that when we cover politics. But we have to be careful not to do it in an in world fashion. As a real example, most of us remember how it came out a few montsh ago that Van Jones said some very rash things for a politician, probably not rash for the guy on the next stool at a bar, but rash in terms of someone who wants to be a major political appointee and avoid vulnerabilities. It would be strange to report directly that Van Jones is a communist sympathizer who holds Republicans in contempt because that's not really the issue. Instead we report matter-of-factly the mechanics of how Van Jones was forced out of his position after Glen Beck began advocating against him based on three different issues, and the issue spread first among the conservative blogosphere / opinion pages to the mainstream. As a hypothetical example to take this to an extreme, suppose a politician named Sydney Foo is mayor of a city called Bunnytown where all good politicians are expected to earnestly pet bunnies to show their respect, even though everyone knows it's just a poltiical game and nobody actually loves bunnies, in fact there are no bunnies in Bunnyville so they have to rent bunnies once a year from a band of travelling migrant farm workers. Anyway, when Foo thinks he's off microphone he says something very derogatory about a bunny, like "bunnies are actually considered food in some parts of the world", and the fact comes out in Bunnyville's free alternate weekly paper, which hounds the mayor with his quote for several weeks forcing him to make the now-famous "I am a bunny" speech. Okay, how do we write about that on Wikipedia? If we adopted the language and issues of the local politics, we would say something like "Mayor Foo was a popular mayor who seemed to show the proper respect for bunnies, but it turned out that privately he considered bunnies to be food". But that's in-world, that's like writing about a soap opera, saying "Jenny loved Brian, but then she discovered he was cheating on her with her mother, and found a more suitable boyfriend". To be encyclopedic we would first have to decide whether the whole soap opera plot is even worth mentioning - notable, sourced, relevant, of due weight for the article in question. And if we do include it, we would say "In episode x, the character of Jennifer..." Or for Mayor Foo: "Foo was the subject of negative editorials by the Bunnytown Advocate, a free weekly paper, regarding a comment he made that the paper said evidenced a disdain for Bunnies." Something like that, we have to take a step back and keep the focus on the subject of the article. In this case here with Obama, this is a biographical article that tells the broad story of his life. The substantive question of whether he wants to kill unborn babies, or deprive people of their hard-earned wages, or whatever, is not the point here, but rather whether any of these issues rises to the level where a short telling of his life necessarily includes it. Several embarrassing or negative things clearly make this cut - that he did a substantial amount of drugs, that he resigned from his church after a controversy involving sermons perceived as racially offensive, probably a few others. Several are judgment calls - should we mention the birther conspiracies, the controversy over his supposed relationship with a former radical portrayed by his opponents as a domestic terrorist, a mini-scandal over his association with the perpetually corrupt local politicians in Chicago. I think Jones was indeed a political mentor and that can be sourced, there's a very long Salon article on the point. And then a few are just really trivial, but maybe they get added in for color. He claims to have quit smoking but he sneaks a puff now and then. He loves playing basketball, and is semi-good at it, but even his coach says he's selfish and hogs the ball. Rush Limbaugh keeps calling him Stalin, or Hitler, or something bad. 10% of America still believes he's Muslim. So we sort through all these things, and many things that don't make it into this article get added to other articles. The move of suing his opponents is an interesting one and can be portrayed different ways, which makes it hard to boil down to a single sentence. His opponents in that election were all conducting their elections illegally - their nomination petitions contained loads of paid-for and fraudulent signers. It's almost universal in any kind of petition drive that opponents scrutinize and sue to try to disqualify bad signatures, do recounts, etc., and the election officials try to do their job. But Chicago had a cozy relationship, at least among the power structure there, where politicians got away with it and nobody said anything. Obama was ambitious and did not play by those rules - he saw an opportunity, true. But what he did was clean up the elections. He was the only one of the candidates that got nominated legally. However you tell it, that incident is very interesting. It may or may not belong on this page; if not, it belongs in the article about that election. It's a matter of room. If we have to mention the 50 (or 100, or 200?) most important, emblematic, telling, and well-known incidents in Obama's political career, is that one of the 50? That's something that gets hashed out on this talk page, hopefully by respectful mature people. It's okay if we as individuals have opinions or even advocate for information perceived as reflecting positively or negatively. We just have to check any antagonism at the door, and realize that through discussion and contributions of a lot of different people we'll arive at a better article than any of us could ever write alone. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Wow, that is one huge wall of text. How about a paragraph or two?--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 20:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, how's this?
- Reading the hlwot is optional. Don't worry, it'll archive in a few days. Cute name, btw. :) - Wikidemon (talk) 20:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, but do keep reading at least until you get to the evil mayor of Bunnytown. Abrazame (talk) 20:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- I demand you refactor that comment. Calling Mayor Foo evil is a clear violation of our biography of hypothetical people policy. You're just repeating his opponents' election-year meme. They're just a bunch of wingnuts who can't handle the truth, that Foo loves bunnies as much as anyone else. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
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- If you read my post above, you'll see I addressed the Hitler issue. I see what you're saying, "is the material relevant and not just reporting on attacks that might be widely believed but with little basis in fact?" The birther conspiracies could be mentioned in the article, I think, just for the sake of the widespread protests it resulted in. This does not mean going into detail about the reasoning behind the birthers and what they believe, but simply mentioning it as a controversial part of his presidency since it achieved prominence. As for the Muslim stuff, that is more difficult to prove, since it involves circumstantial evidence. Yes, he has an Islamic name, attended an Islamic school in an Islamic country, has Islamic family members, and as an Illinois senator sponsored several Islamic bills (like the Islamic Community Day bill and Halal Food Act), but so what? None of it means he was a Muslim, and even if he was, it shouldn't matter (aside from the disturbing idea that he'd hide his religion from Americans). And either way, shouldn't belong in the article without solid sourcing, which as I've said, isn't since it involves circumstantial evidence that is thus open to interpretation.
- However, with the live birth abortion issue, his primary opponent during the 2004 election which vaulted him into national prominence and set the stage for his presidential run criticized him solely on this one issue alone. He voted against the Illinois version of the most prominent pro-life bill EVER passed by Congress, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. What is more, key witnesses of the testimony that resulted in passing that bill, Jill Stanek and Gianna Jessen, both are critics of him. Stanek has been unceasingly critical of his voting record and senate statements about why newborn infants that survive late-term abortions should be treated as fetuses and not human beings worthy of rights, while Jessen participated in the ad campaign against him in recent years. He has been criticized on the issue by writers across many major accredited news bodies, both on TV and in newspapers, as well as by fact-checking web sources like FactCheck.
- Again, I provided from the beginning of this conversation the verbatim statements by Barack Obama on the senate floor that generated this controversy. It is easy to debate why he stated that in cases where children can be born alive after abortions should be left to die unattended. The reasoning is right there and I provided the government links, the senate transcripts, along with page references, for anyone who wants to read the conversations in full. I provided some major news sources covering the issue. This is not something without solid basis in fact. I am more than happy to discuss what Obama's statements were, word for word, on the matter, and whether the criticisms of him are thus justified.
- As for Emil Jones being Obama's political mentor, yes, that is a well-sourced fact. Case in point:
- Times Online[[23]] :::"Obama has often described Jones as a key political mentor whose patronage was crucial to his early success in a state long dominated by near-feudal party political machines. Jones, 71, describes himself as Obama’s “godfather” and once said: “He feels like a son to me.”"
- Chicago Tribune[[24]]:
- "Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama has taken the unusual step of weighing in on a high-profile ethics bill in his home state, legislation that had been held up by his political mentor, Illinois Sen. Emil Jones."[[25]]
- "An African-American woman who is an Illinois delegate for Sen. Hillary Clinton maintained today that Senate President Emil Jones, a mentor of Sen. Barack Obama, called her an "Uncle Tom" at the Illinois hotel for the Democratic National Convention."[[26]]
- "An alleged slur delivered by a mentor of Barack Obama to a supporter of one-time Democratic rival Hillary Clinton has stirred up the volatile issues of race and gender to an already fracture filled Illinois Democratic Party."[[27]]
- Chicago Sun-Times:[[28]]
- "Jones -- Barack Obama's political mentor -- denied using the racially loaded slur against Chicago political consultant Delmarie Cobb, but two aldermen who said they witnessed the Saturday night exchange back up Cobb's account."
- National Review Online:[[29]]
- "Jones would know. He is Barack Obama’s political mentor, and he can now give himself a $578,000 gift."
- Daily Herald:[[30]]
- "Senate President Emil Jones Jr., Barack Obama's political mentor, denied today calling a Hillary Clinton delegate an 'Uncle Tom.'"
- Those are all just first page Google search results too.[[31]] I can find more easily, but think I proved my point. There is plenty of sourcing for calling Jones Obama's political mentor, as it was a key phrase used by Chicago newspapers at the time.
- P.S.I should have sourced that as far as Jones being a political mentor though, even though I believe it was mentioned in the articles sourced there anyway. I will edit the proposed edits to include some very clear references to Jones being Obama's mentor. Good point about that, I will make the changes.
- --Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Text collapsed for readability, to avoid off-topic conversation dealing with personal attacks and straw men. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 11:11, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
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- Yes, you've proved your point if your point is that Jones is a dick. But that's not your point at all, is it? Your point was that he was Obama's mentor, as the first ref clearly establishes and the second ref, well, seconds. The final five refs are just for left-field emphasis, like World Net Daily and Hitler references. (Or would those two be right-field emphasis?) Your riffs on "the Muslim stuff...is more difficult to prove" are not going to win friends and influence people at this page, I can tell you that. I beg you to stick with one issue at a time, because you're not doing yourself any favors with your digressions.
- You're also not responding to most of the salient points raised with you. It's understandable if you raise ten suggestions and then five people each raise two or three points about various suggestions, which is one of the reasons why I'm asking you to stick with one general issue per thread and one major thread at a time. This is not a trick or a tactic, it's so that we can digest your point, respond to it, and you can focus on all the salient parts of that response, and it ultimately becomes clear to the reader and to you when no new ground is being covered any longer so the thread can be tied down. I daresay we're past that point already. Perhaps our Rankin/Bass metaphors are too subtle, need music and Mickey Rooney's voice to get their point across, or are being too quickly brushed aside as irrelevant?
- We aren't challenging the factual basis of this edit you are suggesting. The facts no longer need to be re-referenced and repeated. (Doing so has been taken by some as a tactic.) We're addressing the editorial requirements of a three page-ish article and you're simply not accepting that as a concept. That is a primary issue here. If there had been a Barack Obama biography at the time of those statements, they surely would have warranted a mention, but for a man whose life is getting more complexly involved in a great many issues by the day, and whose life and career have not really touched on the abortion issue notably since making the statements to which you refer, that would be one of the things that would need to have been culled before this point as the finitely sized article must absorb these other things. To morph your and Wikidemon's analogies, if Sydney Foo went on to become Hitler, the bit about the open mic would be removed from the article not because anybody doubted it happened or because we're rewriting history or trying to make him look better in light of the rest, but because as history wrote itself, some other history no longer fit on the three pages. If this were an eight-hundred page biography, or even one half that length, this issue (I'm thinking we're talking about abortion, you with me?) would surely merit a mention or two, including, as you note, the way Keyes locked in on it (to little apparent avail) in the campaign. However, in a three page bio (my conceit, as of course this is technically a single page), those crazy Norwegians and Obama apparently now suddenly forcing banks to close for no reason have pushed that out of our focus.
- Nobody's going to debate Obama's stance on that bill with you because, while it may be a very big part of Jill Stanek's notability and the most recent notable chapter of Alan Keyes' biography, it's not what fits into the three-page overview of the notability of Barack Obama's life. This isn't personal, this is the bottom line in general here, and why there are a gazillion satellite articles. It's not that it didn't happen or that it's not an important issue for others, it's that it's a peripheral and somewhat distant issue relative to his notability.
- Unlike other issues raised here which are so far under the radar or so beneath the level of sourcing or relevancy to the article, I would note to you that the word "abortion" already does appear, not once, not twice, not three but four times in this brief biography and his stance is illustrated with the detail appropriate for the article at this time. He's got thoughts on nuclear weapons, too, and they rate five mentions despite being very much more a part of his speeches, efforts and actions. "Terrorism" appears once. If some abortion-related development arises directly relevant to Obama that moves the ball somewhere else on the field, it may yet be further elaborated upon; if none does, we might yet shave some of the verbiage currently there. This is the process at a Wikipedia biography for someone who is required to not only have opinions on, but speak to those opinions and do things about, just about everything, and who, in an average day, does several things that would be notable in the biography of anybody else. Imagine if he'd been a senator for two terms. Abrazame (talk) 09:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's it, I'm done talking with you. I didn't raise the Muslim issue, Wikidemon did, and I merely responded. If I could put you on ignore I would. I'm going to talk to those interested in actually discussing the issues than throwing out all this garbage non-stop. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 10:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
- Good riddance then--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 10:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC).
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State legislator: 1997–2004 edits
I reverted this inaccurate addition by Jzyehoshua:Obama won the election by default after a successful legal challenge to the adequacy of each of his four opponents' nomination petitions, none of which were found to have enough legitimate signatures. One of those opponents, incumbent Alice Palmer, had earlier named Obama her successor, but following a failed Congressional bid, her campaign asked Obama to step down, and when he refused, had to gather signatures with two days left before the filing deadline. which is not an accurate or WP:NPOV summary of:
and is about a topic that is too detailed for this WP:Summary style article.
- Palmer announced on June 27, 1995 that she would not seek re-election to the state Senate in 1996
- Gov. Jim Edgar on September 11, 1995 set November 28, 1995 as the 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election—three weeks before the December 18, 1995 filing deadline for nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot to run for re-election to the state legislature
- Palmer introduced and endorsed Obama as her successor when Obama announced his campaign for state Senate on September 19, 1995—the first day of the thirteen-week period in which candidates could circulate nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot
- Obama's mother Ann died of metastatic uterine cancer at the age of 52 in Honolulu on November 7, 1995
- Palmer repeated on November 28, 1995, after her loss in the 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election, that she would not seek re-election to the state Senate in 1996
- Obama filed his nominating petitions with over 3,000 signatures on December 11, 1995—the first filing day for nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot
- Palmer announced on December 18, 1995—the last filing day for nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot—that she would seek re-election to the state Senate in 1996
- Palmer announced on January 17, 1996 that she would not seek re-election to the state Senate in 1996 because she was a couple of hundred signatures short of the 757 needed to earn a place on the ballot after almost two-thirds of the 1,580 signatures on her nominating petitions were found to be invalid
- Palmer appointed herself to the state Senate in June 1991 to fill the last nineteen months of the four-year term of 67-year-old state Sen. Richard Newhouse (D-13) following his unexpected midterm retirement. As an incumbent state Senator, Palmer defeated first-time candidate Charlie Calvin, a Cook County Circuit Court juvenile probation officer, in the March 1992 primary election for the Democratic nomination for state Senator from a redistricted 13th legislative district, and running unopposed in the November 1992 general election, was elected to a four-year term as state Senator for the redrawn 13th legislative district.
- Obama was first elected to the state Senate by defeating the Harold Washington Party and Republican Party candidates in the November 1996 general election.
- Palmer had three weeks to gather the required valid signatures on her nominating petitions to earn a place on the November 1995 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election ballot.
- Palmer had ten weeks before the November 1995 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election
and three weeks after the November 1995 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election (as did state Rep. Monique Davis—one of Palmer's five 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election opponents) to gather the required valid signatures on her nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot to run for re-election to the state Senate.
I reverted this inaccurate WP:OR addition by Jzyehoshua:This legislation was originally worked on by Senator Rickey Hendon, and was among numerous pieces of legislation given to Obama as part of a requested deal with his political mentor Senator Emil Jones, to make him a U.S. Senator. which is not an accurate or WP:NPOV summary of:
and is about a topic that is too detailed for this WP:Summary style article.
- Inaccurate and misleading 2004 and 2008 articles by Todd Spivak in questionable sources (free alternative weekly newspapers) are inappropriate sources for 1995–1996 and 2003 events in this WP:BLP:
- Rickey Hendon never served on the Judiciary Committee in the Illinois Senate, never introduced a bill in the Illinois Senate to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and never introduced a bill in the Illinois Senate to make Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations.
- Barack Obama served on the Judiciary Committee for all eight years he was in the Illinois Senate—for four years, he was its only African-American member (in his first two years he was joined by Bill Shaw of Dolton, Illinois in the 90th Illinois General Assembly; in his last two years he was joined by James Clayborne of downstate Belleville, Illinois in the 93rd Illinois General Assembly). Obama was the only state Senator who introduced bills in the Illinois Senate to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and to make Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations:
- State Sen. Rickey Hendon, state Rep. Monique Davis (who introduced racial profiling and videotaped interrogations House bills in the 91st, 92nd and 93rd Illinois General Assembly), state Sen. Barack Obama (who introduced racial profiling and videotaped interrogations Senate bills in the 91st, 92nd and 93rd Illinois General Assembly) and other state legislators and staff in the black caucus of the Illinois state legislature may have all worked on this legislation, but Obama was credited with guiding this legislation to unanimous approval in the Illinois Senate in 2003.
- Emil Jones was a mentor to Obama. Other mentors include Jerry Kellman, Mike Kruglik, Greg Galluzzo, Laurence Tribe, Newton Minow, Abner Mikva, Judd Miner, Paul Simon, Bettylu Saltzman, David Axelrod, etc.
- Emil Jones was a supporter of Obama for U.S. Senate. When Obama formally announced his candidacy for U.S. Senate—on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 at the Hotel Allegro at 171 W. Randolph Street in downtown Chicago—flanked by 40 political leaders in a small meeting room packed with supporters, newspaper reports noted the presence of U.S. Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr., U.S. Rep. Danny Davis, state Senate President Emil Jones, Jr., state Sen. Terry Link, state Sen. Denny Jacobs, and former Chicago Bear Chris Zorich—and noted the conspicuous absence of U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush.[32][33][34]
- Emil Jones' The Godfather bit was his longtime shtick:
- Long, Ray (November 3, 1993). Senator Jones aims for consensus; efforts cut across racial lines. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 12:
As the state's first black legislative leader since the mid-1970s, Jones, the Senate minority leader, has to weigh what the black caucus wants against what he believes is right for all Senate Democrats—urban, suburban and rural, black, Hispanic and white. To bolster his battles, Jones studies books on political science, ancient Chinese warfare, Shakespeare, particularly "Hamlet," and the " Godfather " series, the latter because they show the value of loyalty and organization.
- Neal, Steve (September 20, 1995). Jones may deal his way into win. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 41:
In the 2nd Congressional District, State Senate Minority Leader Emil Jones (D-Chicago) could win the special election by wheeling and dealing. Jones, 59, the first African-American leader of Senate Democrats in two decades, likes his politics behind closed doors. During the contest for Senate Democratic leader in 1992, other hopefuls got more publicity. But Jones forged coalitions, made secret deals, and got the votes. Democratic National Committeeman Jesse L. Jackson Jr., son of the civil rights leader, who also is running for the Reynolds seat, has referred to Jones as "the godfather." Jones took it as a compliment. If Jackson's name recognition is his biggest asset, Jones has political savvy in his favor. Jones thrives on the politics of intrigue. By running for Congress, Jones is in a strong position to boost the political fortunes of allies. As a member of the State Democratic Central Committee, Jones also is in a position to help shape the 1998 statewide Democratic ticket. If he moves up to the U.S. House, Jones is expected to push for the promotion of South Side legislative allies.
- Wig, Jennifer, Adrian, Matt (February 1, 2004). One on one with Emil Jones: the Senate president talks about life in the 'great university'. The Southern Illinoisan, p. E1:
Jones says he's a fan of classic movies, naming "The Godfather," "Casablanca" and "Forrest Gump."
- Miller, Rich (June 8, 2007). Emil's 'whacks' not a hit with legislators; Senate president should remember 'Godfather' wasn't success forever. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 41:
Senate President Emil Jones often recommends that Statehouse newbies watch "The Godfather, Part 1" to get an idea of how Springfield operates. It's a good idea, and I told my intern this year that he needed to watch the flick as well. Loyalty, honor, respect and ruthlessness are the lessons we're supposed to learn from the classic film, which follows mafia chieftain Don Corleone and his sons as they deal with "family business," including killing off all their enemies. Jones often quotes lines from the movie, and his management style is regularly compared to the loyalty-obsessed brutality of the Corleone "family." But his schtick has gotten way out of hand this year.
- Sneed, Michael (September 11, 2007). No-refuse call. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 5:
RING RING . . . Sneed is told Senate President Emil Jones ' cell phone rings to the tune of the "Godfather" theme song. Whoaaaa!
Newross (talk) 03:22, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
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