Talk:BMW Goldfisch V16

Goldfish or Goldfisch

The article's only reference in English spells it Goldfish, so I think this is the correct spelling. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 12:10, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

BMW always called it the Goldfisch. When it came to the UK (rarely!) it kept the same name because it was so incredibly obscure. My project team T shirt was "Goldfisch" (I did test cell instrumentation on some of the project). Andy Dingley (talk) 12:33, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

How to spell "Goldfisch" properly. --Jojhnjoy (talk) 15:09, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

The reason that the grouparchive.de reference (and the spelling of the animal in German) is not a consideration here is that the question is how the engine is spelled in English. For example, the cover of the American E28 brochure says "Bavarian Motor Works", not Bayerische Motoren Werke. I agree that it is often useful to use references that are in German, but for this question we need to stick to English ones. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 09:40, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Andy, the English reference for the article (plus all the google results for the search I did in English) spell it as Goldfish, indicating this is the more common spelling in English. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 09:29, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

The question is: What is the actual proper name? The name is clearly Goldfisch as it was given by BMW engineers. The archive proves that. It is not important how others call it. I don't understand what you mean with "Werke"? --Jojhnjoy (talk) 10:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the question is: what is the proper name in English? Sorry, the Werke thing was a bad example. Some things have their name altered for different languages (eg morphine, accordion, contact lenses, lithograph) and the sources indicate this is the case for this engine. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

This question is not relevant, for instance, "Volkswagen" is also called "Volkswagen" in English, nobody would call it Peoplesvehicle either. --Jojhnjoy (talk) 08:18, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

That's not a relevant comparison. The article's BMWCar reference and Google results suggest it is spelled Goldfish in English. Unless references can prove this is not the case, I think the article should be changed back. 1292simon (talk) 10:51, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

As I said, the name was chosen by Germans. If they would have decided to name the engine Erdapfelsalat, the article would have the name BMW Erdapfelsalat. The abbreviation BMW means "Bayerische Motoren Werke" which not even German. But still it is used on both the German and English Wikipedia, possibly also on other Wikipedias. And why? Because this is their name. Just because a name is close to something which resembles a word in English, it does not mean that you should manipulate an articles name to fit the spelling of an English word. I would not change the name Bayerische Motoren Werke to something which is correct in German either. --Jojhnjoy (talk) 14:16, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Morphine and accordion are examples of names that are spelled differently in other languages. So are many country and city names. Again, the article's BMWCar reference and Google results suggest it is spelled Goldfish in English. Which references in English have it spelled Goldfisch? 1292simon (talk) 10:40, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

You cannot alter names. Shall I call you 1292thomas from now on?

• ″BMW-Ingenieure entwickeln dann auch noch einen V16-Motor. Der bekommt den Namen „Goldfisch“, wird aber nur für Demonstrationszwecke vorgeführt." – Löwisch, Roland: BMW – Die schönsten Modelle – 100 Jahre Design und Technik. Heel-Verlag. Bonn. 2016. ISBN 978-3-95843-353-3
• ″Am 8. Juli 1987 beginnt man mit der Konstruktion dieses Sondermotors unter der Codebezeichnung "Goldfisch".″ – BMW Classic – BMW Goldfisch
• Karlheinz Lange, one of the engineers who worked on the Goldfisch engine names it "Goldfisch" his book as well: Karlheinz Lange – Geschichte des Motors - Motor der Geschichte (BMW Dimensionen 1+2) BMW Mobile Tradition. 1. Auflage. 1999. ISBN 978-3932169045

Random question: Why wouldn't you want to correct the mistake in the name "Bayerische Motoren Werke"? --Jojhnjoy (talk) 11:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

You can call me what you want, but that comment about my name is not very nice, please be WP:CIVIL. The random question doesn't seem relevant, because the current issue is spelling differences between languages. Those 3 references are in German unfortunately, so they don't add much to this debate. The English source spells it Goldfish, which references in English have it spelled Goldfisch?

You don't seem to understand that you cannot alter names. It is not an issue of language differences, "Goldfisch" is a name that does not depend on languages. It is just the name. Names are not reasonable, they are given. If you keep ignoring the sources that prove that the name is Goldfisch, I cannot help you. I showed that the person who built this engine named it Goldfisch.

The name BMW is wrong, you would not alter it either to make it grammatically correct. Why did BMW name the successor of the Neue Klasse 5er? BMW just did. Is there a reasonable reason for that? Why is the name not Neuere Klasse? The easiest explanation for the spelling "Goldfish" I could come up with is that these English source authors just made a mistake when they wrote the name. Since reading and language recognition is detecting some sort of pattern, I could imagine that a native English speaker automatically reads "Goldfish" even when the name is actually "Goldfisch". As it makes sense in English, people would not even notice the spelling mistake. --Jojhnjoy (talk) 10:39, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

There are many names that are spelled differently in English compared with German: morphine, accordion and Cologne are examples. Again, do you have (English language) references to support the idea that it is spelled Goldfisch in English? 1292simon (talk) 02:27, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Your name cannot be spelled differently either. The spelling of names does not depend on languages. You just decided that your name is 1292simon. It is a proper name. Goldfisch is too. As I mentioned above, if the name was Erdapfelsalat, you would possibly not want to change it. And why? Because it does not make any sense if you don't know German. People would accept it as a name. Even if you could translate it: Potato salad. You can see the same principle all around the English Wikipedia when it comes to vehicles; nobody ever wanted to change these names. For instance: Volkswagen, Sachsenring, Ча́йка, Marder, Maultier, Kommandeurswagen. Same for city districts: Landstraße, Favoriten, Neubau, Innere Stadt. But when German words resemble English words, then people consider changing them to make them "correct". I had this problem with somebody who wanted to change the German word Typ in the name of a vehicle to the Austrian word Type in an article on a German vehicle by an Austrian engineer who worked in Germany. I want to express that given names and proper names cannot be changed. They might appear wrong in any language, they are just names and therefore don't need to be corrected to match spelling rules. BMW, meaning Bayrische Motoren Werke, does not follow grammar or spelling rules either. It is a name. I don't know any language in which Bayerische Motoren Werke makes sense or is correct. At least it is wrong in German. In the German Wikipedia, nobody corrects this mistake. As it is a name. The interesting thing is that BMW tried to translate its name (BMW is singular) though you cannot translate something from non-German to English using a German-English dictionary. Best regards, --Jojhnjoy (talk) 09:06, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, some names do not change spellings. And some do. The English reference shows that the Goldfisch engine is one that does. Again, which English language references to support the idea that it is spelled Goldfisch? 1292simon (talk) 22:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Why would the name change in this case? Even more trivial names such as Schwimmwagen don't have translations here. And the name actually makes sense since it describes the purpose of the vehicle as good as possible. Goldfisch is a random name such as Erdapfelsalat. Why would you translate it? As I explained, I would assume this is a spelling mistake done by English speaking authors. When you look up the sources carefully you will see that actual printed books, BMW and the engineer who built this engine name it Goldfisch. The weight of this evidence is very heavy. Is there an official BMW source that uses the name Goldfish? Where do the sources have their information from? There is no rule that tells authors to translate names. And I cannot see that leaving the original name would be an exception in this Wikipedia. Please show me an article on a German or well, any vehicle from a non-English speaking country that has a translated name on this Wiki. I cannot find any. --Jojhnjoy (talk) 09:31, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

http://www.zorro.milk-maid.de/scans/e32_v16.pdf spells it Goldfish. None of the sources you refer to are in English, which is the key point of the issue. I'm not interested in debating why it would be spelled different, just whether the sources show that it is or isn't. 1292simon (talk) 11:04, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

So let's assume that article is unimpeachable truth, because it has been published in A Car Magazine! (I used to read magazines, then I spent a while writing for them, and around that time I stopped reading them. I wouldn't eat one of Bismarck's sausages either.)

So when do we rename the Alusil article to use "high silicone aluminium"? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:22, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

All good sources no matter which language are allowed: WP:NOENG: Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. I don't want to say that the zorro milk source is a bad source. However, we can actually cite both BMW and the man who built this engine. Who knows better than the company the engine was built for and the person who built it? Equal quality and relevance can only be achieved when we cite an English source published either by BMW or Lange. I tried finding this in English, but I did not end up with anything useful. I know that this is no evidence, but it is very likely a spelling mistake. According to Farmer: "this is one that is known within the company as "Goldfish"." This expresses the problem: He uses quotes to tell the reader that BMW uses this name. But according to BMW, they don't. And it actually makes sense since I assume Germans would never use the word Goldfish because in German, this word does not exist. Then there are more mistakes, Farmer writes: "The next step was to be considered quite logical by all involved – take the body of a regualar production 750iL and modify it to take the new creation, the SOHC V16 engine, and insert it in the space formerly occupied by a V12 unit." You can tell with ease that the car was not a 750iL since the BMW kidney is the variant used for the M30 straight-6-engine models. Therefore, it must be either a 730iL or 735iL. Next he claims that the power output would be 408 bhp (304 kW) and the torque 461 lbf ft (625 N m) – According to BMW: 408 DIN-PS (300 kW) and 62,5 kp m (613 N m); according to Lange: 408 DIN-PS (300 kW), 63,7 kp m (624,7 N m). Then at some point Farmer also uses the name "767iL" for the vehicle; he does not do this addressing the vehicle clearly, but you could assume he is reffering to the E32 shown in the pics. However, BMW did never use the name "767iL" either. Therefore I doubt that the source zorro milk is applicable on this case. --Jojhnjoy (talk) 12:06, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I see no point in changing this as there is no proof BMW has ever called it "Goldfish", it is certainly not impossible that the author of the magazine article got it wrong or just decided to translate it. 96.54.57.109 (talk) 11:06, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

The google results for the search I did in English spell it as well Goldfisch, ie Dubbed the Goldfisch, BMW’s experimental engine gained..., But how about their 1988 project "Goldfisch" which is a v16 engine..., Dubbed the “Goldfisch”, it was originally destined to become the top performance..., Honed as an almost BMW M7-sh thing, the BMW "Goldfisch V16" was originally conceived... etc. --ZdBdLaLaLa (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Another Goldfisch

On April 4th, BMW Group Classic posted photos of an E38 prototype, built in 1990. A car that never before has been seen by the public. It's currently on display at the Techno Classica car show: https://www.facebook.com/BMW.Classic/posts/pfbid02fgQ9mSQfWPTMrkv2vVX78dRJNDbPAAcQWEvuSUJ4DwxESLF3CKkhkjb7Sjg3zZ1zl 1000mm (talk) 00:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)