Talk:Bäckadräkten

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 22:25, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Fredy Clue wearing the Bäckadräkten

• ... that the Bäckadräkten (pictured) is Sweden's first unisex folk costume? Source: The title of this article about the Bäckadräkten is "Fredy Clue and Ida Björs Make History by Creating Sweden's First Unisex Folk Costume".
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/N661US
  • Comment: The owner of this photo has emailed Wikimedia to confirm release of the copyright; as I write this, that email is awaiting processing by Wikimedia.

Created by Dugan Murphy (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 13 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral: - The article does not attribute the criticism of the costume, without which it is not possible to assess whether these sentiments are being given due weight. If the critics are important politicians, more weight would be necessary. If they are random Twitter commenters, it might not be necessary to even mention the criticism at all.
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - No text copyright issues detected. As to the images, though, looking at ticket:2024032510008305 (VRT only), there are unresolved licensing issues here.

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - Headlines are not reliable sources, so the provided source is insufficient, but fortunately the article uses several citations for this, and [1] verifies just fine.
• Interesting:

Image eligibility:

• Freely licensed: - See above
• Used in article:
• Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Dugan Murphy: This is a great article. If this were a GAN I'd only have a few more things to say than I've said above. There's four Xs above, but only one that actually requires action on your part, a pretty straightforward NPOV fix. If the image copyright question isn't resolved by the time you've dealt with NPOV, I will put this on hold pending a VRT decision. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 02:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tamzin: Thank you for reviewing this nomination! I have added a few words to the Reception section clarifying who has expressed support and who has expressed opposition. The image copyright thing is still being reviewed, so unless there's someone else holding up this nomination, then we can put it on hold until VRT makes a decision. What do you think? Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:05, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the additional details resolve the NPOV issue. The VRT ticket is awaiting clarification from Mx. Clue as of March 26, so if you're in touch with them you might want to give them a nudge.  On hold for now. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 15:30, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Update: Fredy Clue sent an email about 2 weeks ago, which is awaiting response. I started this discussion on the Volunteer Response Team discussion board to check in on progress. Dugan Murphy (talk) 11:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Dugan Murphy: Peeking in with VRT goggles, I'm reasonably confident that resolution is imminent. Once you see the VRT tags go up on Commons, feel free to ping me and I can give this the tick of approval. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 19:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tamzin:The VRT tag just went up for this image. Do you see anything else holding back this nomination? Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

This resolves both the hook image issue and article copyright issue. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 03:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The Bäckadräkten

Dugan Murphy, I would write "Bäckadräkten" rather than "the Bäckadräkten" as the final "en" means "the", what do you think? The BBC uses "the" but Independent Online, Mumble Music, Sweden.se and Fredy Clue's website don't. Also, the Nationella dräkten article does not use "the". TSventon (talk) 23:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a really good point and I appreciate you pointing it out. It seems that the clear predominant English-language usage of the title term omits "the". I'll modify this article, Fredy Clue, and the upcoming DYK shortly. Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

What was the hardest part?

We have:

The costume's culottes are called kyxa. The word is formed by combining the Swedish word for skirt, kjol, with byxa (pants). Clue likened the kyxa to an Irish kilt, which Björs said was the hardest part of the costume for her to produce, given its fine pleats. The top half of the costume is similarly defined by a combination of traditionally male and female dress: what appears like a bodice in the front, but a vest in the back. Its fabric, sourced from Ljusdal, is traditionally used by men in that region for wedding vests, but coincidentally bears the colors of the modern transgender flag: white, pink, and light blue. Called a livstycke, Clue said it is the hardest part of the costume to produce.

I assume this is a typo but I am too tired to check the sources myself. jp×g🗯️ 10:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

What you're looking at is the diverging opinions of two different people. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I have reworded to make that more clear. Thanks for bringing it up. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The definition of “folk costume” generally conflicts with particular authorship.

Whatever this may be, it isn’t a “folk costume.” Qwirkle (talk) 05:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@Qwirkle: 14 of the 19 sources cited in the article describe this as a 'folk costume'/Folkdräkt in their titles alone. Do you have any that object to this description? – Joe (talk) 08:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

You might be confusing "folk costume" with "traditional garment". This is not the first Swedish folkdräkt designed by someone. Those designed, are a condensed selection of styles, designs and materials representative of a region and/or historical era. The most notable example is Sverigedräkten which is usually worn by members of the royal family at some events. Cart (talk) 09:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Joe here, the sources consider this a folkdräkt, and it is described as such by the museum and regional heritage associations. Draken Bowser (talk) 12:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Ahh, so the usual wikipeian groogletranslatisch calque-up. In English, perhaps unlike Swedish, "Folk costume" and (sometimes modified, over-particularized, and even misimagined) "traditional local costume" are pretty much identical. Look at the blue link inthe lead of the article. The confusion is on the part of folk who think that cognates are exact equivalents. Qwirkle (talk) 14:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the link is so bad if you start reading the article Folk costume. It says clearly that there are many, many garments that can be called "folk costumes", Folk costumes often come in two forms: one for everyday occasions, the other for traditional festivals and formal wear., and continues to explain that many European folk costumes were created during the rise of the Romantic nationalism era. Cart (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Passing over the attempt at snark ("if you start reading"), both examples there imply an actual group of people wearing something, a "folk" who wears the "folk-garment", and ignores the fact that "created" costumes were based on traditional garb. Overparticularized, anachronistic, and otherwise misimagined sometimes, but stuff actual people actually wore. Qwirkle (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I haven't read any sources applying this analysis to Bäckadräkten. Draken Bowser (talk) 15:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry Qwirkle, no attempt at snarking intended, just stating facts and the wording came out wrong. Many apologies! Cart (talk) 16:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you're seeing a problem where none exists. To take a parallel example, tartan kilts are absolutely traditional Scottish dress, but the modern usage of both the fabric and the item are not ancient, but derive from a specific readily-dateable revival. There are plenty of modern tartans, including many with specific associations which would have been unfamiliar to those working at or before the time of the early 19th century revival - and both those tartans and many modern garments using them can be attributed to specific designers. That doesn't in any way undermine the tradiitonal status of tartan or kilts. So it is with folkdräkt. You really should not have put a dispute banner across the top of a homepage article once, much less twice. GenevieveDEon (talk) 16:07, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

To begin with, note that you avoided using the word in question while discussing "traditional Scottish dress." There is a good reason to do this; English usage largely "others" "Folk costume" while Continental useage emphatically does not. Secondly, while the idea of tartans as immutable designs carried forward over the ages is largely fraud by the Sobiewski Stuarts with a little unwitting support from Sir Walter, the idea of tartan-as-tacksman-livery was well established, the geographical and family ties of particular designs as well, long before this. Tartan itself goes back at least to Huldre Fen. This wasnt something, in other words, created from whole cloth.

Here's the real issue. What is there about the front page that makes it exempt from criticism? Nothing, I'd submit, if any5hing the stadards for it should be higher. Qwirkle (talk) 17:07, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The idea one person can just mangle a load of designs together and then call it a "folk" costume is absurd.

The kilt is worn by a folk.. a people.. a region..a country. Whether it's been modernised or not is beside the point.

This isn't that. It's a design created a few years ago worn by no obvious people or folk over any extending time. 89.243.173.118 (talk) 18:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The English version of the svwiki article folkdräkt is folk costume, which would indicate that the editors of those articles at least think they refer to the same concept. (And please don't assume things about other editor's competences; I can understand Swedish well enough without machine translation.) It sounds like your objection is to sources using this concept in an imprecise or impure way, not factual errors in the article, or anything we can really do about here. – Joe (talk) 15:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

"Using concept[s] in an imprecise way" is a "factual error". Qwirkle (talk) 17:07, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Correct. This is not a folk costume or dress. 89.243.173.118 (talk) 18:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, in the sources. If you disagree with how reliable sources define something, then you should write to them and seek a correction. Until then, we have to report what they say, so there's little point in talking about it here and no reason to tag the article itself. – Joe (talk) 04:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you not agree that

There aren't going to be sources claiming this specific dress is not a folk costume. Of course there isn't. Doesn't mean it is one.

As the other editor describes, you merely need to consider common usage of words in English. 89.243.173.118 (talk) 08:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

This reply cut out half my response. I think your appeal for specific sources in this case, specifically about this garment, of lingustics is a logical fallacy.

Some source could claim it's a cheese grater. Just because we cannot source a specific source claiming it isn't a cheese grater doesn't mean its a cheese grater.

The sources claiming this is a folk costume are doing so out of politeness and novelty. Not because it actually is a folk costume. 89.243.173.118 (talk) 08:05, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Lastly, noone is saying it is not a "Folkdrakt".. by the way. That is fine. What it is not correct, in English, is describing it as a folk costume. Folk costume has its own meaning in English.

There are clearly two separate meanings at play here.

The sources call it a folkdrakt. Fine.

This is the English wiki section though. 89.243.173.118 (talk) 08:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not one to take offense, quite the opposite but this feels like appropriation of Scottish culture. I don't have an issue with people wearing it but labelling it feels wrong.

It's blatantly a Scottish kilt design... why does it say Irish in the article?

Confusing our sartorial heritage in a "queer" culture war is deeply offensive. It's not for LGBT community to subsume itself onto other people and im very supportive of the community generally. Imagine taking something of someone else's and then labelling it for your own amusement. It doesn't feel right. 89.243.173.118 (talk) 18:00, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is "appropriating" anything here! In Sweden, a folkdräkt doubles as a garment for formal wear, that is you can wear it for example to the Nobel banquet or the Riksdag opening etc. There is a history of creating folkdräkts when such are lacking for some group for some reason. The first one was actually designed by King Gustav III, Nationella dräkten in 1778. Later folkdräkts have been created by the Swedish Handicraft Association and designers, like Stockholmsdräkten, when people living in Stockholm wanted a garb representing their community. On Gotland with its now strong ties to the Medieval Age, a Medieval garb is seen as a folkdräkt. Bäckadräkten has been created along the same traditions for creating new folkdräkts, in cooperation with artists, crafts people and designers. A folkdräkt is not just something that represents regions, they can also represent communities, like the clothes worn by Sámi people i northern Sweden. Cart (talk) 18:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

No. That’s an example of a prescriptive sumptuary law. Qwirkle (talk) 21:31, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

This is new is it not? Designed by one person?

With this one person claiming THE design is from the "Irish (sic) kilt" in the article. Then for some reason identifying it with queer ideology... because what? He sees it as a skirt? 89.243.173.118 (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

If you're going to use concepts like "queer ideology", I kind of think you're not here for a constructive discussion. It's an inflammatory term and I'd be surprised if you didn't know this.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 23:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

You're wrong actually, I am interested in a constructive discussion and the phrase was shorthand and entirely apt *albeit I accept it's used poorly by bad actors.

The linguistic issue

1) In English anyway, a single individual's design cannot be truthfully described as a "folk" costume. The folk part of it assumes traditional, historical use by a certain subset of people. If the description is not this, any design down a catwalk could be described as a folk costume.

Just because "sources" call it a folk costume doesn't mean it is. The English language isnt based off newspaper articles. Asking for a strict source on this item describing it NOT as a folk costume is a logical fallacy.

The parallel around kilts with modern design is a good one. There are, rightly e.g. Italian Pakistani tartans to celebrate rich culture, there will even be a LGBT one. They don't have their own article as a separate item.

The appropriation

2) the designer, not me, has claimed the design derives from the Irish (sic) kilt. Okay,that's fine but the labelling of it as LGBT is problematic. Seems like a lazy label due to it being shaped like a skirt, a female stereotype. This is appropriation, in my view, in the most vivid way. It is taking another culture and using it for their own amusement. I'm sure, if it was known about in Scotland, there would be more filler for the reception section. 89.243.173.118 (talk) 07:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

So it will be okay then to use a Kurta in your next foldrakt? Getting it yet? 89.243.173.118 (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

This seems like a minor dispute that can be resolved simply through rewording. If the issue is that this is being described as a "folk costume" when it doesn't meet the normal definition of a folk costume, would it be better to just remove mention of it being a folk costume? For example, is Sweden's first unisex folk costume could become is a Swedish unisex costume.

I suppose we could alternatively replace the English phrase "folk costume" with the Swedish term. Then, later on in the lead, we can add that "several sources describe this as a folk costume" or something like that. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:40, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

To go that way we'd need to see some evidence that the subject actually "doesn't meet the normal definition of a folk costume". So far we just have two editors asserting this vs. over a dozen reliable sources that see no problem in describing it as such. – Joe (talk) 04:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The article itself states this. The normal example of “folkdrakt” in Sweden is clothing just inside the limits of sumptuary laws or traditions, back when those still existed, frozen in time. Mostly this was peasant clothing from rural areas. So, nearly all of this is traditional design from before the mid-19th century, as well as it was recalled, recorded or evidenced, all of which was divided by gender.

In English, “Folk costume” can also refer to totally artificial revivals or even creations of national or regional idealized dress. Hell, I’ve even seen morris dancer’s clothing described as that. Qwirkle (talk) 05:52, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I agree that the article should still describe the costume as a folk costume, based on the sources alone. I wasn't implying that the subject actually "doesn't meet the normal definition of a folk costume", just that this could be a solution if there's dispute over this matter. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I'd love to hear a native Swedish speaker pronouncing Bäckadräkten. Until we get such an audio file, could we have an IPA at least? BorgQueen (talk) 09:27, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

BorgQueen, here you go. :) File:Bäckadräkten.ogg. I just saw your comment and hope this might be helpful. Use it as you see fit. Best, Cart (talk) 10:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@W.carter Thank you! The pronunciation is very different from what I imagined. BorgQueen (talk) 10:21, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Swedish is very rich and varied with dialects and it will sound different if pronounced by someone from another part of the country. I've moved around a lot, so I don't have any very distinct dialect, more of a general "tone", and that might be ok for this project. Cart (talk) 10:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion (as a native English speaker who also speaks Swedish) two things might affect how it sounds, compared to how you might expect:

• ä in Swedish is a different letter from a, and its pronunciation is much closer to that of e.
• Although Swedish is not a tonal language, it is usually pronounced with a rising and falling 'melody', which can be clearly heard in this sample.

GenevieveDEon (talk) 15:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Is anybody gonna make a Swedish version of this article?

I find it odd there isn't a Swedish version of this article, even if it were just a stub. Allan Nonymous (talk) 12:09, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

There is a re-direct sv:Bäckadräkten to sv:Svenska folkdräkter#Könsneutral folkdräkt. There are so many of these folk costumes (see [2]) and most of them don't have their own article yet. It's not a prioritized subject, unfortunately. Cart (talk) 12:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I have started translating this and a few other FAs, but the work is still in progress. Draken Bowser (talk) 12:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Brunnaiz has notified me that they just nominated this article for translation of the week to potentially have it translated into several languages. You can vote on the nomination here: meta:Translation of the week/Translation candidates#en:Bäckadräkten. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

So just to be clear here, you got a work which has been kinda semi-translated from Swedish, in which language are most of the cites, and you wanna take the calqued-up thing and translate in back into Swedish.. And you think this is a Good Idea.

Telephone game, anyone? Qwirkle (talk) 03:41, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Glad to see a Swedish page now! Allan Nonymous (talk) 21:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)